Loud sleds, we are our own worst enemies

[Ollie]

The industry could invent a electric snowmobile that levitated across the snow and the enviromentalists would still want to shut it down. It has nothing to do with the environment. The greenies are just greedy and unwilling to share.

There is no doubt you are correct, buy why should we load the gun they want to shoot us with??

It does no good to sit and demand your rights to run as loud a sled as possible if the only place you get to hear it is your garage.

 

[JDKZRT]

To me, this entire argument sounds just like the smoking ban(s) that started quite a while ago ... small and no big deal.......remember when restaraunts had non-smoking sections,and no-one thought anything about it, then they had closed off smoking sections, and no-one thought too much about it. Then there was talk about resteraunts and bars being legislated as completely non-smoking and when smokers started talking about it and thought it would never happen (remember this line --- 'I smoke and it's my right to smoke in public - so deal with it').
Fast forward a few years to the end of the story --- smoking is almost totally banned in public.
...and I'm pretty sure that there's a lot more 'non-snowmobilers' pushing for some of these snowmobile bans than there were 'non-smokers' pushing for smoking bans.

 

[OuraySledder]

I've read through many of the posts on here, and it amazes me how ignorant many of you really are!

There is absolutely no doubt that excessively loud sleds hurt all of us as a group.
Yet, so many of you are so selfish that you are willing to allow us as a group to be weakened, just so you can listen to your own "braaap, braap, braaap".

You folks are the poster children for the stereotype of arrogant, selfish less than intelligent snowmobilers.

There is certainly a difference between the guy who puts on a mild can & sneeks away from the lodge & you dolts who gotta make sure everyone within 2 miles is aware that you are now riding your sled!
"Blah,blah, blah, I'll make as much noise as I want to, blah, blah, blah."
What are you.... like 5 years old?

I sat here trying to type this in a non-offensive manner, & decided, SCREW IT!
If this offends you then GOOD! YOU are the problem!
I am ashamed to be a snowmobiler when I know I am grouped in with you retards!

Yep, keep letting yourself get beaten by the greenies, that will solve it! Keep giving in to every stupid argument they make. Can't you see us losing ground everyday based on this stupid method of defense? Just like the post in land use where the assumption is if we ride closed areas they will take more, this thread and its defeatist attitude is the WRONG WAY to defend our sport.

All we are required to do is comply with the law. If you pigeon hole yourself further into the corner with this attitude, YOU WILL CONTINUE TO LOSE. Is this how some of you guys go through life in general? Do you just give in to those that whine at you? Seems pretty stupid to me.

I don't have loud pipes, however I could care less if somebody else wants to run them. I seriously considered loud pipes just to let the skiers KNOW we are here and here to stay. If that embarrasses you then quit the sport, buy some skis.

Just because somebody "doesn't like" what you are doing doesn't mean you just give up and crawl in a hole does it? That is entirely the wrong approach. It has been the one used with abject failure amongst snowmobilers for years. I personally think this pansy a$$ attitude is the problem, not the guys with loud pipes.

 

[JDKZRT]

Yep, keep letting yourself get beaten by the greenies, .......................... It has been the one used with abject failure amongst snowmobilers for years. I personally think this pansy a$$ attitude is the problem, not the guys with loud pipes.

There's something you forget in your arguement....... It's not just greenies that don't like obnoxiously loud sleds. Read the other snowmobilers comments above.
You are battling other sledders too.

 

[mtntopper]

The loud seems to be just a minor question and is not really significant to the future of snowmobiling. The answer to protecting your snowmobile rights what ever you deem them to be is organizing into groups that can have some ability to fight off the attacks on the sport. The opposition is so well organized and financed that we as snowmobilers loud or quiet are going to take a big hit. Spend your money on organizing, hiring the lawyers to fight for the cause instead of the loud accessories and you may see snowmobiling still existing in the future as it does today. Too many of the new sledders are only thinking of themselves today and not the real future of where snowmobiling as a sport is headed. I have seen a great decrease in club membership in the past 15 years and a decrease in what they gained by organizing in the past. Join snowmobile clubs, other outdoor motorized organizations, support those organizations that are protecting your rights with the same amount of dollars you are investing in the performance equipment to make sure you will have the right to use and own it in the future.....

Yes, I am preaching but with 45 years of snowmobiling in my blood I have earned the right to preach.... I want to see another 45 years of it as it exists now. Stand up, join up and donate up to the causes that are allowing you to use your equipment as you are now and maybe you will see many more years of snowmobiling.

 

[Mafesto]

Yep, keep letting yourself get beaten by the greenies, that will solve it! Keep giving in to every stupid argument they make. Can't you see us losing ground everyday based on this stupid method of defense? Just like the post in land use where the assumption is if we ride closed areas they will take more, this thread and its defeatist attitude is the WRONG WAY to defend our sport.

All we are required to do is comply with the law. If you pigeon hole yourself further into the corner with this attitude, YOU WILL CONTINUE TO LOSE. Is this how some of you guys go through life in general? Do you just give in to those that whine at you? Seems pretty stupid to me.

I don't have loud pipes, however I could care less if somebody else wants to run them. I seriously considered loud pipes just to let the skiers KNOW we are here and here to stay. If that embarrasses you then quit the sport, buy some skis.

Just because somebody "doesn't like" what you are doing doesn't mean you just give up and crawl in a hole does it? That is entirely the wrong approach. It has been the one used with abject failure amongst snowmobilers for years. I personally think this pansy a$$ attitude is the problem, not the guys with loud pipes.

OK,

Let's simplify the arguement as it can and has gone several directions with some valid & some not so valid responses.

Does anyone believe that loud exhaust does not hurt our sport?
Especially when idiots go out of their way to make noise?!?

 

[OuraySledder]

It only hurts our sport if you allow it to. This is still America. Last I checked we could live our lives as we choose for the most part. Are you LOOKING for an excuse to be a victim of all this? That is what I hear, and loudly, louder than any snowmobile pipes. This is just one small part of a much larger adgenda. Can't you see that if you give in on this there is still a list a mile long of complaints against motorized forest users in general? At what point do YOU personally draw the line? I personally am not willingly going to give an inch unless I receive something in return. I do not see that happening. Do you honestly think for one second that if sledders gave in on the noise issue that the greenies would give us back land? If you believe that, you are freaking nuts. I deal with these groups a lot. In fact I have a USFS draft plan meeting to attend tomorrow night regarding winter travel in my "playground".

Tell me what we will gain by giving more? Are the skiers all of the sudden going to like sleds running the fresh powder they want to ski just because we are quiet? Think again.

You quiet guys will probably get your way shortly anyhow. The Colorado Snowmobile Assoc already has a plan in the works in conjunction with authorities to regulate sled noise. I don't like it, I will be presenting my side to Janelle(the Pres.) and Karen(VP) tomorrow as they will be in my truck on the way to this meeting tomorrow. If I know them, we may be "trading" for something but I have yet to hear the positives for sledders.

What I know FOR SURE, is that pandering to the opposition makes us weaker not stronger. Be very careful what you give up, it is a very slippery slope. Be very careful to not allow us to be divided on issues such as this, that is what "they" want. That is how they have gotten so far, not because we are doing something "wrong" but because sometimes we are foolish enough to believe that they make a valid point. You keep buying into it and poof, it is all gone. Getting anything back is extremely difficult.

One big reason we beat them in my area is that they wouldn't give an inch. Makes them look bad. We tried to compromise, they wouldn't. So maybe the noise thing is a good compromising tool. Lets use it as such, not condemn our fellow sledders. If we are going to give on the loud pipes let us get something substantial in return. That is what is missing from this debate. Be quiet, run and hide isn't the answer.

I agree with the getting organized post. That is why last year I was key in starting a new club in my area where there was none previously. This year we are around 100 members from two small communities of under 1000 people. Our club fundraiser this year made $2000 above and beyond regular dues collected.

I just wish I had a sled to ride this year! Divorce is expensive but worth it! I will keep fighting though because I will be back on the snow next season and I want to have a place to ride.

Brent

 

[Steamboat-RN]

I'm sorry but that is just a too simplistic view. Compromise in not pandering. In any war you have to pick your battles. Battling over obnoxious sleds and sledders does us no good. A lot of sledders don't like loud sleds. Just think what the general public thinks. Why risk alienation over something that has no value?

 

[Bagger]

It seems to me that the real problem isn't the equipment we ride, or where we ride it.

It's with attitudes.

I'm making my sled as loud as I want and screw anyone that doesn't like it.

I'm riding OOB and screw anyone that dosn't like it.

I don't think you should have loud pipes and screw you if you don't like it.

I don't think you should ride OOB and screw you if you don't like it.

What are we 10? Is Dad gonna "Pull the car over"?

So far reading this I've just been dissapointed. People think thier way of thought is the only right one?

Lets see,
1. I ride a Harley so I have a bad attitude. It's not a race bike so it's not as good as a R1.
2. I don't believe in riding OOB so I've given up and not only am I willing to give up my sled, but you can come over to my house and kick my dog and drink my beer.
3. I don't support loud pipes so I'm old and grumpy, and have no clue.
4. I state my opinion so I should go to another site where I would fit in better.

Everyone is entitled to an opinon, doesn't mean everyone is smart or mature enough to have a good one, or present it well.

Seems like a bunch of you feel insulated by your living room. And if you really talk to people like that in person you must be a real blast to hang around with.

Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't make them an ***.

Being an *** does make you one though.

If you go thru life belittling and ****ting on everyone that dissagrees with you, your not going to be one bit of help.

How 'bout we all give a little bit of room to people that think differantly than we do? If you are to small to do that I feel for you, and you are worse than the person you are belittling.

Ollie is entitled to have an opinon on pipes, just as anyone that likes loud ones is, doesn't mean we have to cut each other up over it.

"I swear, it's like playin' cards with my Sisters kids...."

Bagger

 

[Mafesto]

OuraySledder

You are doing the right thing by becoming involved. I wish everyone would!

You are misunderstanding my intent though.

I am not saying outlaw loud pipes.

I am saying if we use common sense & even police ourselves, our opposition will have less ammo to use against us!

I am saying that the moron who has to have the "race" can needs to have his butt kicked for making sure everyone at the lodge knows when he is doing his parking lot posing!
THESE IDIOTS are a small % of snowmobilers but cause most of the damage to our rights.

If these jerks would clean up their act, would all of our problems go away?
Of course not.
But they need to quit being part of the problem & start being part of the solution!

 

[ruffryder]

Landshark is exactly right. The Enviro-nazis would try to shut us down if we had silent electric sleds. It is John Q that we have to worry about. One bad experience with obnoxious sledders and they are enemies for life.

That is a good point. We don't need to get the enviro-nazis on our side or appease them, it is the forest service and the land managers that we need to appeal to. Showing that sledders are conscious of the audible impact on others should gain some respect (hopefully) from them.

 

[Jeff C]

It only hurts our sport if you allow it to. This is still America. Last I checked we could live our lives as we choose for the most part.

Here is where you are wrong. We live our lives the way the majority says we should live our lives through laws. If the greenies convince the legislatures or BLM or forest service management to shut down this area or that area, in order to live our lives the way we want in this case, we will be riding our sleds in "protected wilderness" which will be against the law. Don't be so simplistic!




Can't you see that if you give in on this there is still a list a mile long of complaints against motorized forest users in general?

But the arguments that the greenies will have will be less and less credible. It is much easier to lobby for closure when the person being lobbied to can picture or see a videotape of a really loud sled 200' away as this person is XC skiing through the snow. Or it is much easier for a landowner to deny access through his parcel of land when he hears a piped sled waking up his kids at 10pm on a weeknight.

To non sledders the greenie arguments make more sense for closure and your arguments make sense for loud pipes



At what point do YOU personally draw the line? I personally am not willingly going to give an inch unless I receive something in return.

Oh really? So you ride in the "closed areas? Or did you get something for those closures?

I do not see that happening. Do you honestly think for one second that if sledders gave in on the noise issue that the greenies would give us back land?

No, but that is the basis for the closures in many cases! Your argument has been tried and lost time and time again in the courts.

If you believe that, you are freaking nuts. I deal with these groups a lot. In fact I have a USFS draft plan meeting to attend tomorrow night regarding winter travel in my "playground".

Tell me what we will gain by giving more? Are the skiers all of the sudden going to like sleds running the fresh powder they want to ski just because we are quiet? Think again.

YOu are correct on this one. If tomorrow all sled were whisper quiet, they would try and cite something else. The problem is after we remove the noise issue, there is little left to argue about other than tracks.

You quiet guys will probably get your way shortly anyhow. The Colorado Snowmobile Assoc already has a plan in the works in conjunction with authorities to regulate sled noise. I don't like it, I will be presenting my side to Janelle(the Pres.) and Karen(VP) tomorrow as they will be in my truck on the way to this meeting tomorrow. If I know them, we may be "trading" for something but I have yet to hear the positives for sledders.

What I know FOR SURE, is that pandering to the opposition makes us weaker not stronger. Be very careful what you give up, it is a very slippery slope.

Remove the noise issue and you get down to tracks. That will be the next argument, and an argument that will not hold up with the general public like loud pipes do for the greenies.




Brent

Loud pipes do not help our cause, period

 

[Snoman69]

Very well put Mafesto and Jeff C.... It's to bad we have so many close minded arragont people...

As Mafesto said, "I'm ashamed to be a snowmobiler, when I know I am grouped in with you retards!"

The problem is alot of people don't get pipes or cans for what they are meant for, weight reduction and HP gains, they get them for loudness.... THen they have to show everyone within a 5 mile radius how "Cool" they are

It flat out disgusts me that we are even having an argument like this. Some of the replies on the other post (Ollie Linked it), are just rediculous.... Some of those guys make Forest Gump look like Einstein.

 

[OuraySledder]

I'm sorry but that is just a too simplistic view. Compromise in not pandering. In any war you have to pick your battles. Battling over obnoxious sleds and sledders does us no good. A lot of sledders don't like loud sleds. Just think what the general public thinks. Why risk alienation over something that has no value?

I'm sorry but that is too presumptive. YOU may think it is of no value but that is just your opinion. In addition,the general public is extremely diverse. You are now trying to make the case that if some sledders do not like noise, that the public in general really must not like noise. Talk about a simplistic view. How many pick-ups in your neck of the woods wear duals and glass packs or the new fad of mufflerless diesels? I bet those guys would be really pissed to hear loud sleds....not! It isn't that cut and dried either. There is a sizable portion of the population that likes noise.

This needs to be a give and take situation. I will ask the question again, what are the skiers going to give us for making a change in our behavior/equipment? If you honestly believe it will make any difference then we have to agree to disagree. I have been dealing with these folks for years. My good friend in Silverton for almost 10 years now. No matter what we give, they just want more. I am all for it if there is a net gain to sledders. The point you miss is that it wont make one iota of difference. They still want us gone, period.

They have clearly been successful in your case. Divide and concour, it has worked for them for years, still seems to have a foothold because you allow it.

I also think this is way overblown. Maybe it is a lot worse where you are but here I can only think of ONE seld out of hundreds I consider too loud, a CMX with twin stingers.

They want you to think it is ammo against us. Until we break the law, it isn't ammo, just whining. Whining gets you nowhere.

Like I mentioned, I will be quizzing the CSA big wigs tomorrow on this very issue. I will also ask the land mangers present at the meeting what their thoughts are. I will definately come back with what I learn.

The point that the land managers are the target group is dead on. The skiers in my area have made a huge fuss to no avail. We worked with the forest managers and have managed to retain open land. I suspect there is truth to the notion that agreeing to quieter machines in respect of other users will gain traction with the land managers. I am guessing that is why the CSA is moving forward with it. Good strategy, I just would like some assurances that it will benefit sledders in the end. So far what I read here are knee jerk reactions that are not fact or result based. I maintain that they hate us loud or quiet. Being quiet isn't going to change a thing. Show me I have something tangible to gain and I will be on board. I don't see anything like that happening, just lots of armchair quarterbacking.

 

[robertyoke]

My attitude towards this is mixed. I don't want the greens on us because we are loud, but I still like the sound of a piped up sled. I will probably go with the Ultra Q for my nytro, because of this. Dirt bikes, too, are under the watch of the treehugging type, so we have to be careful what we do with those, too! On the other hand, I like my streetbikes (I currently have an R1) to be as loud as possible, because as long as the Harley wonks can get away with it, I am going to, too!!!! They can't do as much with all of the gears on their bikes as I can with the first two on mine, but they "sound cool" I guess.

no they sound slow and stupidly loud!
they are now ticketing loud hardlys in denver. straight pipes are for the track! why bother with a straight pipe on a harley when they only make like 50hp. wow harley, air cooled pushrod 60 deg v- twin perfected after only 70 years of development!

 

[OuraySledder]

OK Jeff, your computer skills clearly exceed mine so I can't parse your post but allow me to retort

So is there some reason you think the greenies are going to prevail? Do you think their lobby is that much stronger than ours when it comes to sleds? I have a few problems with that. First sledders support economies, greenies do not. We have much wider support when you go and ask for it. I know, because I have done so. Our club has widespread business support, the greenies do not. I think you are presumptive in assuming they will continue to be victorious over us. That is not the way I see it. I am fighting them, are you? We all should be, loud pipes or not. BTW, I am not advocating loud pipes just trying to point out that they are not the real issue. That becomes very clear to anyone that hears both sides. Rather than impune your brethren, help us defend the sport.

The only place anybody sleds at 10pm is Minnesota Nobody lives anywhere near where I sled. Interesting generalizations though. Quiet pipes in the midwest might make for a convincing argument. The west is a little different, I know, I am a MN native.

Yes, I have, and will continue to ride closed areas. See my posts in land use, you likely wont like those either. My crazy new take happens to be working though.

They will NEVER run out of arguments against us. Giving up this one has nothing to do with noise, everything to do with principle.

 

[Steamboat-RN]

There is a sizable portion of the population that likes noise.
I have been at this for close to 30 years. Jet Skiing, dirt biking, snowmobiles. I've even spent time in court defending my right to run my snowblower at 5 in the morning. There is ONE common theme to it all. MOST people do not like noise. MOST people do not go into the woods to hear NOISE. MOST people will vote to limit noise. MOST municipalities have noise abatement laws. MOST motorised competions agencies have noise regulations. NASCAR AMA/FIM. you name it they all have delt with the noise issue and compromised.
This needs to be a give and take situation. I will ask the question again, what are the skiers going to give us for making a change in our behavior/equipment? If you honestly believe it will make any difference then we have to agree to disagree. I have been dealing with these folks for years. My good friend in Silverton for almost 10 years now. No matter what we give, they just want more. I am all for it if there is a net gain to sledders. The point you miss is that it wont make one iota of difference. They still want us gone, period.
In a perfect world I would agree. HOWEVER, historically, the best we can hope for is maintaining the status quo. Like it or not, the non sledders/dirbikers/atv riders...etc out number us by a wide margin. We have to be careful not to push too many people to the greenies side.
You are correct in saying that they want us gone. As others have said, why give ammo and load the guns of those trying to shoot us?
They have clearly been successful in your case. Divide and concour, it has worked for them for years, still seems to have a foothold because you allow it.

I also think this is way overblown. Maybe it is a lot worse where you are but here I can only think of ONE seld out of hundreds I consider too loud, a CMX with twin stingers.
An opinion you share with very few others on this site.

They want you to think it is ammo against us. Until we break the law, it isn't ammo, just whining. Whining gets you nowhere.
Whining has gained the greenies huge closures.

Like I mentioned, I will be quizzing the CSA big wigs tomorrow on this very issue. I will also ask the land mangers present at the meeting what their thoughts are. I will definately come back with what I learn.

The point that the land managers are the target group is dead on. The skiers in my area have made a huge fuss to no avail. We worked with the forest managers and have managed to retain (but not reclaim)open land. I suspect there is truth to the notion that agreeing to quieter machines in respect of other users will gain traction with the land managers. I am guessing that is why the CSA is moving forward with it. Good strategy, I just would like some assurances that it will benefit sledders in the end. So far what I read here are knee jerk reactions that are not fact or result based. I maintain that they hate us loud or quiet. Being quiet isn't going to change a thing. Show me I have something tangible to gain and I will be on board. I don't see anything like that happening, just lots of armchair quarterbacking.

Not all that long ago you could ride dirt bikes and ATvs any where ever you wanted in Lake City, Silverton, and Ouray. Not now. The greenies made a fuss and now life has forever changed for the worse.
What you have to "gain" is not losing any more.
It is not due to my "allowing" it, it is due to too many riders with a "screw them" attitude.

 

[CatWoman]

OuraySledder.....you aren't the only one who's been at this land use fight. Why do you think some of us have strong opinions/thoughts on this? I know I've been at it quite awhile, and know others who have been as well. I could make calls to the FS folk I know and ask their thoughts, but I'm pretty sure I know what they'd say. Some of it I HAVE already heard from their mouths. I've probably done more one on one with various FS peeps than most people, and it's not been in the office, but in the outdoors.

There have been some very good responses from others. I really liked the comparison between the vehicle and watching the tube. Kind of like the neighbor with the dog(s) that barks incessantly. Dog is on private property, but is annoying others. Or the neighbor who can't seem to understand that not everyone wants to hear their music, and especially not when they are trying to sleep. Or how about peoples kids crying/screaming in stores. Ever gone camping at FS campground and been next to someone with that loud generator that they run for hours (and usually early morning or late evening)? Is it really that hard to be courteous to others? When people don't police/regulate themselves, then others step in and laws are made to take care of it. No one wants more laws, yet some peeps always seem to push the limits until there is that straw that breaks the camel's back, and something is done.

Noise is noise, and no one likes excess noise. John/Jane Q. Public does care. If you've ever spent any time with any FS personnel out in the woods, you'll find that they care. They do notice when people are courteous. I've sat on my sled and visited with our FS Law Enforcement Rangers out on the snow. They notice a lot!

What is wrong with taking away any type of valid arguments the enviro-zealots might have, and leaving them with nothing but their true agenda showing through (selfishness)? When the valid stuff is gone, it's going to be awfully hard for them to push their agenda.

 

[Mafesto]

Very well said CatWoman!

 

[PoWdErJuNkIe91]

love my psi triple pipes with the stinger exauhst
nice and loud