How exactly are the manufactures going to keep up with innovation? I mean how can they keep making it stronger and lighter and affoardable (they aren’t) and Nevermind get them to market in time and be reliable. There are so many 21-22 sleds around here with under 400 miles for sale. Seems like maybe they should have two markets. One for average joe and an working aftermarket for hardcores? Make a reliable on time kinda affordable for me cause I can’t do hop overs anyways? You know what I mean? Burandts allways building the lightest weight to horse power but I bet that if we built it it would cost 35-40k ??? I dunno but I bet ? So go far away from 22 is skidoos 25 going to actually be you think? You guys are asking for stuff and they’ve actually given Mia of it to you allready lol (except it’s been hard cause of Covid and it’s on the raged edge and breaks lol)
2024 catalyst
- Thread starter SnoPro1000
- Start date
Every year people say “how can they get better?” … and they get better.
Every year people btch about how expensive they are… and they continue to get more expensive.
And theres always (the last 2 years were a bizarre exception) a flooded 2-5 year old sled market… which is probably the direction you should look if you arent into hopovers and want affordable.
I'm still disappointed that they didn't push the CTEC 800 into it, but I understand the reasoning. Every investment in R&D and tooling has to be justified, and that's a hard sell for a 1-2 year run. I don't think they'll sell many 600s, but it's obviously part of the long-term lineup, so you might as well sell what's ready to go. I do have to wonder if they've decided that no matter how well they nail the chassis, it's still going to be a distant third with "just an 800." I'd bet an 800 CTEC Catalyst would steal quite a few sales from Doo/Poo if they nail the chassis, but it's hard to tell just how well they'd have to do to recoup those costs. I just hope they're not banking on a lot of people holding out for the Catalyst with the bigger motor.
I agree the top engine spot is a moving target; I honestly hope they're not blowing the budget chasing that. I still think they need to focus on making a good all-around motor - obviously make more power where they can - but I don't see Cat having the resources to win that one outright. I like that they're emphasizing overall weight and mass centralization, and it could easily outshine the rest even with less HP. The Pro 800 was a distant third in HP when it came out, but it still dominated the market (and it was failure-prone to boot). The other big question for me will be serviceability. For a guy like me who likes to get my hands dirty especially, being able to get in easily for maintenance and modifications is a big plus. Anyway, the one nice thing about the 600 being ready is hopefully I can get a chance to ride one this season and see what I think. I don't see buying a new sled in my immediate future, but if I like it enough and the timing works out, who knows.
I agree the top engine spot is a moving target; I honestly hope they're not blowing the budget chasing that. I still think they need to focus on making a good all-around motor - obviously make more power where they can - but I don't see Cat having the resources to win that one outright. I like that they're emphasizing overall weight and mass centralization, and it could easily outshine the rest even with less HP. The Pro 800 was a distant third in HP when it came out, but it still dominated the market (and it was failure-prone to boot). The other big question for me will be serviceability. For a guy like me who likes to get my hands dirty especially, being able to get in easily for maintenance and modifications is a big plus. Anyway, the one nice thing about the 600 being ready is hopefully I can get a chance to ride one this season and see what I think. I don't see buying a new sled in my immediate future, but if I like it enough and the timing works out, who knows.
C
cbc24
Well-known member
I told myself I will never fork out 20k for a new machine but I dont mind the idea of the new catalyst, maybe a 600 wouldnt be horrible since my abilities are winding down but that is a tough pill to swallow when a machine that is 4 years old is less than half the price of a new one with nearly the same experience... so its a weird time.
What do you guys think about market theory? I remember our dealer ship would be flooded with models and cat had to offer huge rebates to get them out of the door. However do you guys remember the textron take over? They wanted to shake the way the market was and basically keep the value of their machines up thats why they slowed the production of in season models at dealerships and made it a order based system come spring but coincidently the pandemic swooped in at the same time and it made it 10x as bad... and basically made every manufacture go order based due to supply shortages.
So my question is where do you guys think itll go? I feel like the bubbles is already burst and prices have dropped on the used like Like boosted summits for 15k.. what about new? It seems although its "tough times" every one is actually doing well and they all got new toys and vehicles...
For a bigger guy, the 600 would tend run out of oomph. If you're like me, 175 or so geared up, then it might be enough, especially if they hit the 400lb mark they're talking about. I had a lot of fun on my old 600/144, but was more than ready when I stepped up to my 800. There's still a lot of fun to be had on a 600, but on the other hand, if you ride up high or are lucky enough to ride in deep stuff a lot, it's not like you have to ride hard to use the power of an 850.
I hear Cat was a real mess with inventory control not too long ago. Hopefully they've got it better figured out now - it's not a good time to be building sleds nobody wants. I do think the bubble is bursting, mostly because of interest rates. Most buyers are financing their machines, even though they're basically toys, and with interest rates skyrocketing, you're looking at around $50/mo more than a year ago. That may not sound terrible, but then consider that you're probably paying that much again in higher fuel prices (and maybe a lot more, especially if you drive a diesel to go ride, like me) just to do the same amount of riding as last year, and you're spending more money on just about everything else.
I think we're going to see some significant economic issues, and if so, the sled market is going to take a hit. In a roaring economy, I'd expect to see carbon fiber sleds and bigger engines, more turbos and such coming, but if things are rough, the value market will be where it's at. The price of new sleds is partly driving used sled prices, and will continue, but eventually you run out of good used inventory. Unless things get really bad, the market isn't going to disappear, but I don't expect any major rebound in the foreseeable future. So, whether I'm Cat, Doo, or Poo, I'd be putting more time and effort into bottom and middle markets - probably working towards a low-cost chassis and engine combination that's still got some fun factor. I know a lot of people want to see a 900 turbo slayer from Cat, but I have a hunch that if they want to weather the storm, they need to find a way to match a basic RMK/Summit for closer to $10k. It's definitely the wrong time to be gunning for the top of the market, in my opinion...
I hear Cat was a real mess with inventory control not too long ago. Hopefully they've got it better figured out now - it's not a good time to be building sleds nobody wants. I do think the bubble is bursting, mostly because of interest rates. Most buyers are financing their machines, even though they're basically toys, and with interest rates skyrocketing, you're looking at around $50/mo more than a year ago. That may not sound terrible, but then consider that you're probably paying that much again in higher fuel prices (and maybe a lot more, especially if you drive a diesel to go ride, like me) just to do the same amount of riding as last year, and you're spending more money on just about everything else.
I think we're going to see some significant economic issues, and if so, the sled market is going to take a hit. In a roaring economy, I'd expect to see carbon fiber sleds and bigger engines, more turbos and such coming, but if things are rough, the value market will be where it's at. The price of new sleds is partly driving used sled prices, and will continue, but eventually you run out of good used inventory. Unless things get really bad, the market isn't going to disappear, but I don't expect any major rebound in the foreseeable future. So, whether I'm Cat, Doo, or Poo, I'd be putting more time and effort into bottom and middle markets - probably working towards a low-cost chassis and engine combination that's still got some fun factor. I know a lot of people want to see a 900 turbo slayer from Cat, but I have a hunch that if they want to weather the storm, they need to find a way to match a basic RMK/Summit for closer to $10k. It's definitely the wrong time to be gunning for the top of the market, in my opinion...
Steal quite a few sales from Doo/Poo?
That is a heck of a prediction since Doo has 60% market share and Poo is around 30%.
Yup, I'd bet if Cat hits the nail on the head with the Catalyst, it could jump to 30% - maybe even right out the gate. The mountain segment will be weak without a bigger motor, but keep in mind that the rest of the market is a lot more evenly split on 600 vs. 800/850. Brand loyalty and hesitancy to switch to Cat will hold them back no matter how well they do, but I don't think there are that many who'd never buy a Cat. I'd be tempted: between Polaris not really doing anything new in the chassis department and Cat potentially taking every advantage I care about (light weight, simplicity), I could easily be swayed. If the Catalyst is just ok and they can't offer a better value, then I'd probably stick with Polaris; I don't see myself switching to Doo, FWIW. Hard to tell until sleds are in buyers hands, but right now at least Cat is talking more about the game I want to be in than Doo or Poo.
so whats with this $47million lawsuit that cat lost? will it delay the new sled.
It would take several years of next level innovation and rebuilding their dealer network to claim roughly 20% market share from the others.
Even if the Catalyst is a home run and outsells everything else in 2025, Cat is too slow bringing new and exciting things to the market to keep their momentum going. That's the biggest thing they need to improve upon in my opinion.
Granted, my 30% estimate doesn't take into account production and dealership capacity; that could be a bottleneck for a while. Obviously, Cat has to have an "and then" after the Catalyst, but they don't have to match Doo/Poo blow for blow. The marketing aspect has been beat to death already, but most people believe Doo/Poo are on their second or third all-new chassis while the Ascended is the same thing it's been since it debuted in '12 - shows how Cat has failed in the PR game. Maybe if they'd wrapped a bunch of changes together and called it a new chassis five years ago... It's a huge exaggeration to my mind, but it's what Polaris did with the Martyx and Doo did with the G5. Cat should have been calling out Doo/Poo for overstating things, or found a way to play the same "all new chassis!" game. I do see Cat continuing to struggle if they don't find a way to control the PR narrative.
I hate the social media aspect. I left KGBook a couple years ago and never looked back. But it's sadly something you have to master if you're in Cat's position. To some buyers, you don't exist if you're not near the top of search results on FB/IG/youtube, etc. It's not universal though: there is a subset of younger buyers who see the Burandt's of the world as shills and dig deep for more independent opinions. Cat would be wise to focus on up-and-coming riders (even knowing they'll probably be poached at some point), but also find a couple guys who've been riding since a 136 was a long track and standing on the boards was a new thing. It doesn't actually take that much money either. One of the best examples of non-traditional, but highly effective marketing was how PBR became a sensation in the 20-something set ten years ago, and they did it for a fraction of what a typical marketing blitz costs. It's not a formula you could just copy, but that kind of thinking would do a lot to help pull Cat forward.
Looking at the new Cat on the snow, still has me disappointed that the sides of the bodywork, particularly the lower rear are still wide. Narrowed clutch but still has side panels protruding out so you'll panel out in the real deep. Only way around it is to design a new exhaust, something like the Polaris. The way Cat's expansion chamber goes across the chassis will never allow the body to narrow up. Really my only bitch about the Catalyst.
The all black Catalyst looks nice!!!
Does anyone know when and where the demo's are scheduled?
Does anyone know when and where the demo's are scheduled?
not true if you look at a helium kit'd cat. very slimmed up and ability to shorten the nose more than others with their pipe out front. Laydown motor has more potential to tuck than even catalyst i bet. I did think same thing in the pics above tho, does this angle make me look fat? LOL kinda. tape measure will tell us in a couple months...
