2024 catalyst

[goridedoo]

I agree, but mostly from a marketing perspective: I can imagine a Cat 800 that matches a NA 850 competitor in power-weight (say, a <400lb sled vs an RMK at 420lb) and even outperforms but still loses in sales. It's not that I want to see a smaller motor, it's just that at some point not far over 800cc, you run into diminishing returns and more problems. Obviously, they've signaled something bigger, and it'd be awesome if they meet or beat Doo and Poo in power at a lower weight. Still, if an 800 is basically a non-starter, then why are they building a 600 mountain sled at all? Mostly I'm arguing that, while an 800 would probably be a weak third place in sales, they'd sell 3-5 times more of those than 600s - probably worth it even if it's just for a year. Boosted sleds are pretty sweet, especially for people who ride at 10k+, but the way the economy is going, Cat may be wise to let Doo and Poo fight over that and concentrate on bringing a competitive sled at the best value. And of course, we'll probably be facing supply chain SNAFUs for years to come, so there's another argument for KISS...

Yep, I don’t disagree with anything you said.

The 600 would likely be axed altogether if it weren’t for rentals. I’m guessing thats where something like 90% of new 600s go. I actually think Cat only offered an 800 mountain sled for a few years?

A value (lets say… 15k?) 850-900+ would sell like crazy. I just don’t see them having a competitive offering for thousands less than Doo or Poo. Could they? Probably. Will they? I highly doubt it. That said… this spring I priced the sled I wanted from Poo and the sled I wanted from Doo, the Doo was almost 3k less. I’ve been on Poo since 2012, but 3k was enough to make that decision easy.

 

[sno*jet]

i think some mountain guys are a little out of touch with overall sled sales. not calling out anyone in particular, but this attitude of cat's gonna fold if they dont make a high cc mountain sled is a bit far fetched. how many peeps at haydays were in the market for a top of the line mountain sled? their focus is the race sled/flatlander market first, as per usual with sleds built in that part of the globe.

 

[spoon]

they took the mtn market in ‘05 with a 700 when all the competition was coming out with 900-1000cc sleds, so it’s happened before. Guess it depends how well it works. Also price could be a factor. If they keep the cost reasonable compared to the $20k+ price tags of the competition they could do well.

At that point they even had the 1000 engine ready to go but wanted to prove the sled itself at the time. Only reason I know that is I was looking at starting a dealership at that time and the rep was not sure if the M7 or M1000 was going to be first to market in 05. Not a bad move as the M7 was a great sled at the time and the competitions 800s had nothing on it. Poo's 900 and Doo's 1000 were far from successful.

 

[Vern]

At that point they even had the 1000 engine ready to go but wanted to prove the sled itself at the time. Only reason I know that is I was looking at starting a dealership at that time and the rep was not sure if the M7 or M1000 was going to be first to market in 05. Not a bad move as the M7 was a great sled at the time and the competitions 800s had nothing on it. Poo's 900 and Doo's 1000 were far from successful.

They made the right choice releasing the m7. I still say that was one of the best sleds ever made. I agree on the competitions 900 and 1000 at that time being a flop.

 

[MrIQR]

Any of you rode a 600 lately?

I borrowed a 19’ 600 axys kahos 155”/2.6”and absolutely loved it. North Idaho trees, snow was deep, I went places my buddy needed a couple try’s at and he was on a 850/154/3”, never once did think I would be having more fun with more power. Smile on my face all day. Similar to the fun I had on one of my Iqr 600/144 full mtn conversions, flat out fun and that’s all that matters in my book.

With that said I’m planning on snowchecking one, likely a 146” and my only gripe will be if I can’t get a twin rail.

 

[Vern]

I have a few buddies that ride Polaris 600’s because they love the chassis but don’t trust the bigger Polaris engines. They go everywhere us on 800/850s go. Only place they lack a bit is top end power on deep wide open climbs. In the trees they’re just as good as the bigger sleds.

 

[goridedoo]

i think some mountain guys are a little out of touch with overall sled sales. not calling out anyone in particular, but this attitude of cat's gonna fold if they dont make a high cc mountain sled is a bit far fetched. how many peeps at haydays were in the market for a top of the line mountain sled? their focus is the race sled/flatlander market first, as per usual with sleds built in that part of the globe.

I sense that you may be referring to me. LOL.

To think they dont need a higher HP mountain sled to pull any buyers from Doo or Poo is foolish. I think with the right powerplant they could triple (or better) their mountain sled sales.

I don’t know if you do Haydays but I’ve watched that transition from being a trail rider event to likely being close to 50/50.

Mountain sled numbers are huge. The 2011 Pro RMK outsold every other model that year. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are more profitable especially after parts are figured in.

 

[goridedoo]

Any of you rode a 600 lately?

I borrowed a 19’ 600 axys kahos 155”/2.6”and absolutely loved it. North Idaho trees, snow was deep, I went places my buddy needed a couple try’s at and he was on a 850/154/3”, never once did think I would be having more fun with more power. Smile on my face all day. Similar to the fun I had on one of my Iqr 600/144 full mtn conversions, flat out fun and that’s all that matters in my book.

With that said I’m planning on snowchecking one, likely a 146” and my only gripe will be if I can’t get a twin rail.

Everyone is different, but even getting on an 800 anymore for me is meh. You can go most places on a 600, but the process just isn’t as fun. Being able to do a bowtie anytime you want is just a hoot.

I learned to ride the mountains on a 600 Etec, had and absolute blast, very capable. I just wouldn’t enjoy it now. I could see myself coming full circle as I age tho and enjoying the control and challenge.

 

[goridedoo]

Regardless of my crappy opinions and assumptions, they have made it clear there will be a motor larger than an 800 for 2025. I hope its bigger and better than the competition, thats good for everyone.

 

[dgiles]

i think some mountain guys are a little out of touch with overall sled sales. not calling out anyone in particular, but this attitude of cat's gonna fold if they dont make a high cc mountain sled is a bit far fetched. how many peeps at haydays were in the market for a top of the line mountain sled? their focus is the race sled/flatlander market first, as per usual with sleds built in that part of the globe.

Maybe they could focus on more than one thing at once? They have lots of time. Pretty sure they made a financial decision not to do it a few years ago and that's fine. But there is a point you never get market share back.

 

[BeartoothBaron]

i think some mountain guys are a little out of touch with overall sled sales. not calling out anyone in particular, but this attitude of cat's gonna fold if they dont make a high cc mountain sled is a bit far fetched. how many peeps at haydays were in the market for a top of the line mountain sled? their focus is the race sled/flatlander market first, as per usual with sleds built in that part of the globe.

I've got a friend who rides in Maine - mostly trails - and he says there are more 600s there than anything else. Without the high elevation, plus sleds getting lighter, I can't imagine you need something bigger on the trail - it's like a mid-range sport bike, where an 850 or boosted sled is like a Hayabusa (more speed than places you can use it). But that's a very different situation to the mountains: the elevation saps power, but deep snow and big tracks go through it like a certain politician's son through booze and blow. Still, my Pro feels like it's got ample power for me. That said, I'm definitely a control over speed type, and the last couple winters have been pretty lacking for deep stuff. It'll be interesting to see how much a good snow year changes my perception. I had plenty of fun on my old 600, despite running against its limits much quicker (although it was pretty capable for a now-20-year-old sled).

I suspect they have the 600 ready (or will soon), and they're looking at close to half their sleds being 600s. They'd probably be selling a 600 mountain sled anyway, so why hold off just because "something bigger" isn't ready; just leaves the question of why the current 800 can't be an option in the meantime (and maybe there are enough packaging changes that it's not feasible - who knows). But yeah, it's pretty easy to forgot that a 600 near sea level is like an 800 at 8k', and that people still ride trail sleds.

 

[sno*jet]

I sense that you may be referring to me. LOL.

To think they dont need a higher HP mountain sled to pull any buyers from Doo or Poo is foolish. I think with the right powerplant they could triple (or better) their mountain sled sales.

I don’t know if you do Haydays but I’ve watched that transition from being a trail rider event to likely being close to 50/50.

Mountain sled numbers are huge. The 2011 Pro RMK outsold every other model that year. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are more profitable especially after parts are figured in.

Nah not really you, thats why i said not calling anyone out, just the flavor spewed by quite a few that cat is going to go out of business without a high horsepower mountain sled. Theyve been making sleds wayy too long, to Verns point, was polaris almost out of business in 05/06/07? cuz their best sled was a 600, then punched to 700 to try and keep up, then finally to 800...ok dont need to beat that dead horse ? i liked those smaller bore polaris' tho, super fun! 2011=chris buradnt no?
mountain guys at haydays are more crossover guys, Cboys/boondock nation followers. No hate, they are getting better. They might be some of the first guys to rip one of these catalyst 6s. Cant wait to see it actually

 

[NHRoadking]

Tried a 600 mountain sled and no thank you. Just doesn't compare to an 840/850 in the deep stuff. And losing 20 pounds or so off the sled's weight is not going to make up the difference.

Also, I doubt someone on an 840/850 is going to ditch it for a Cat 600.

Here's hoping the 2025 Cat is worth the wait for all those loyal fans and may, maybe, new customers.

 

[GoBigParts]

they took the mtn market in ‘05 with a 700 when all the competition was coming out with 900-1000cc sleds, so it’s happened before. Guess it depends how well it works. Also price could be a factor. If they keep the cost reasonable compared to the $20k+ price tags of the competition they could do well.

There has been so much focuss on the mtn segment since then though. Especially with Polaris and their mountian division. Before that I don't think the manufactures realized how big the mountain segment was going to become.

 

[GoBigParts]

I agree, but mostly from a marketing perspective: I can imagine a Cat 800 that matches a NA 850 competitor in power-weight (say, a <400lb sled vs an RMK at 420lb) and even outperforms but still loses in sales. It's not that I want to see a smaller motor, it's just that at some point not far over 800cc, you run into diminishing returns and more problems. Obviously, they've signaled something bigger, and it'd be awesome if they meet or beat Doo and Poo in power at a lower weight. Still, if an 800 is basically a non-starter, then why are they building a 600 mountain sled at all? Mostly I'm arguing that, while an 800 would probably be a weak third place in sales, they'd sell 3-5 times more of those than 600s - probably worth it even if it's just for a year. Boosted sleds are pretty sweet, especially for people who ride at 10k+, but the way the economy is going, Cat may be wise to let Doo and Poo fight over that and concentrate on bringing a competitive sled at the best value. And of course, we'll probably be facing supply chain SNAFUs for years to come, so there's another argument for KISS...

Not sure if I get the 600 strategy either. Howmany on here are lookikng for 600 mountain sled right now. Don't get me wrong I have one that my wife rides.

 

[Vern]

I get that sleds are a lot more refined now, but if you look at the past to me it shows that big bore, over 800cc, sleds are not as popular as the internets and social media would have you believe. How many times have 900-1000cc sleds came and went just to fall back to 600-800cc sleds? Don’t get me wrong, cat will definitely need more than a 600, I just don’t think the market for the 900cc+ sleds is as big as people think, especially at todays prices. I also think the arguing over the past few years over 50cc’s is silly and is just more drummed up social media nonsense

 

[BeartoothBaron]

I'd have to agree with you, @Vern. We represent a fair bit of the mountain sledding community, but maybe not as much as we might think. The type of people who'd notice and care about a sled that's 20lb lighter or has another 10HP tend to gravitate to forums like this; the ones who think of their sled more like an appliance and just want it to function well would never post here. That group is shrinking, but I'd say easily half of riders still.

How big an engine is ideal is a broad question: it's a different theoretical size for every rider and condition. I'll never turn down cheap HP, and with a 2-stroke twin it's pretty cheap when you're pushing through the 600-700 range (in terms of build cost, engine life, and other tradeoffs). At some point though, you're paying a lot for a sled that's significantly worse to live with, except at WOT; no big deal if you can afford it and that's what you crave. For me, more power is always great, but I have to wonder if the 850 being the new "minimum" is mostly marketing. On the other hand, maybe technology has advanced enough to push that balance point more than I realize. I'm a little skeptical still. Obviously, there was the time when everybody was getting way ahead of their skis (900-1000s of the late-00s), and the current 850s are head and shoulders better than that, it's just that I'm still not convinced it's really a better overall package than an 800 could be for me, and a fair number of other riders. I've rode a couple 850s, and they're great, but I didn't get an "I need this!" sense. Maybe if I spent a day on one, then went back to mine I'd notice it more.

Anyway, I'm curious to see what Cat's approach on engines will be. We know there'll be a 600, and "something bigger than 800," but how big? Is it all one architecture? Obviously, that's what Poo did: the 650 is just a de-bored 850. I guess if it were me, I'd use one architecture for two engines, but not a 600. One engine in the 700-800 range, and another along the same lines as the 9R (keep the marketing guys happy, at least). Ultimately, the Catalyst looks very promising; I could even be tempted to grow a mullet (skullet, more realistically) and go over to the dark side, but I can't say until I ride one. I doubt the 600 would be "enough," for me, but if it felt equal to my 800, "something bigger" will be very interesting. The waiting is the hardest part...

 

[kanedog]

Cat 800cc Alpha smokes the Polaris 850 in the mountains. Why go bigger? To beat the competition even more? Haha

 

[GoBigParts]

I'm sure it just smokes it every time? What about the doo 850?

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[NHRoadking]

No matter what we think if the new Cats don’t sell and claw back some market share, bragging about whose sled is better won’t matter.

I think Cat needs to not only produce a superior sled, they need to do so for a bit less money than Poo and Doo and offer a better warranty. Do that for a few years and see what happens.

I also think Cat should offer a dual rail option on their mountain sleds to expand their sales.

We can all circle back in 2026 and see how many predictions we got right.