2023 cat. Where is it?

[goridedoo]

Goridedoo, your addition to your statement adds nothing.
All of your progression arguments are complete BS if it doesn’t matter.

I agree it doesn’t matter, leapfrogging is what pushes all competition.
However, your statement invalidates your personal push for cat to release new today or fade away forever.

Progression matters. Choosing to ride Cat in 2026 because they were the first to come out with a roller bearing clutch or a magnetic tether is ridiculous. Choosing to ride Cat in 2026 because their sled is lighter, faster, and more refined than the competition does make sense.

 

[Jaynelson]

However, your statement invalidates your personal push for cat to release new today or fade away forever.

Spoiler alert - Cat faded away forever a few years ago. Yamaha right there with them, at least in the mountain segment. They don't care....which makes it all the more confusing that some of you guys care to stick up for them.

Guys are going to get all pissy about that....but the other manufacturers have done a substantially better job of supporting their dealer networks, athletes, and their clients all the way through. Like "not even on the same planet" better - and that's on AC and no one else. I understand guys still liking the machines and trying to fly the flag for their brand - but to say Cat hasn't completely sh!t their own bed and been the author of their demise in the mountain segment is some rose-coloured-glasses BS. The company has MASSIVE work on the table to get back to an industry contender with the other 2 ---- 100% confident in that statement. Not just on the sleds, but on everything associated. And I don't think they care enough about the mountain segment to do it. At this point, coming out with a sled with a little better this or that will accomplish very little for AC.

 

[goridedoo]

I like the passion shown in this thread.
Perspective flips facts.


You lost credibility with this statement.

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

Chadly told me I had no credibility once cuz my avatar was a cat in a santa suit, this one hurt a little more. LOL.

 

[BeartoothBaron]

Coming from the Poo side, I'd call their progress more evolutionary then revolutionary since the Proride came out. The AXYS was in many ways an all-new chassis, but saying it was a game changer over the Pro - at least the way iQ to Pro was - is being generous. The Matryx got some big things like a new tunnel and a turbo, but just refinements otherwise. I'm not saying the Matryx isn't worlds better than a Pro, but the DNA is very clear, and with unlimited time and money, you could get a Pro much closer to a Matryx than you could an iQ to a Pro. Similarly, the Gen5 is more a rework of the Gen4 than all-new; maybe more significant than the Matryx considering the changes to front and rear suspension and body, but same bulkhead. The Ascender may date back to '12, but it's very unfair to suggest Poo and Doo have released multiple all-new platforms while Cat's done nothing. An all-new chassis from Cat would be nice, but maybe not necessary.

On engines, I've said it before, but I don't see where Cat needs a bigger motor, especially if it would cost as much as a chassis update that would be much better-appreciated by the average rider. Don't forget, Poo was way behind in HP at the crank with the Pro, but held its own thanks to clutch and drivetrain efficiency. Also, weight loss is like "free" horsepower. Not sure 20lbs is in the realm of possibility, but just from a raw numbers standpoint, it would be equivalent to 5HP. The real metric is the ratio of power transferred from the track to the snow to the weight of the sled and rider, not raw HP or HP to weight. More motor is the simplest way to up that, but you end up chasing your tail if you can't control the weight; ask any former Yammi rider. I get what people are saying about the power in really deep conditions, but in a couple seasons on my 800, I've seen just a couple such days, and still been able to get around anyway. Practically speaking, big bores and turbos are more for bragging rights. Maybe some of you have regular access to much better snow than me, or you only care to load up if there's over-the-hood snow, but I know that's not most people.

I could be overestimating the number of riders with priorities like me, but I don't think so. To my mind, the current Ascender is basically what I want, but is close enough to an AXYS that I don't see any reason to buy one over a low-mile AXYS. I do think they're behind; I don't get why some people treat it like it's an obsolete chassis though. There have been significant updates since '12, and it's not technologically outclassed by Doo or Poo (depending on how you look at the engine situation). At the end of the day, even if they can't afford an all-new chassis, Textron does need to breath some new life into the Ascender. Cut some weight, tweak or revamp the suspension, improve the ergonomics, and fix some of the ongoing issues (like leaky intakes). Call it a new chassis, or don't, I don't care; if they can do that and keep it a fairly simple, easy-to-fix sled, I'll look into jumping ship down the road.

 

[IDspud]

Textron is not sitting around munching burritos. They are working on the next big thing.
I can wait a year or two because it’ll be dependable and progressive when it comes. I’d prefer that to having parts change every single year so they’re more difficult to stock.

Jay, if cats are so irrelevant why waste your breath?

I’m on board with the next big thing. I just don’t know why it’s today or never for some guys.

I’ve said it before.
Quantity does not equal quality.

I’ll ride what works for me. Flat don’t care what the cool kids have.

 

[Jaynelson]

Jay, if cats are so irrelevant why waste your breath?

Used to sell them up until 2016 ish before we bailed on them. Honestly they hung so many small-town dealers out to dry with their slew of non-current inventory and no manufacturer support to clear them out (rebates, dating, marketing, etc, etc). Took a lot of good-ol-boy shops out of the game during that era. Anyone in the industry will tell you the same thing. Ride whatever you want, but given their sled is meh-at-best anyways, I don't get why people support them when they largely stopped supporting the industry.

 

[IDspud]

I’m well aware of the disaster cat was with its dealers towards the end and in no way defend their policies during that time.

Understand the grudge.

Textron was not the orchestrator of that though.
That ship has sailed, the new demand based production has been huge in improving resale value, even before the current political issues have created shortages in every industry, manufacturer.

 

[Clark42]

Well, in under two weeks, hopefully some speculation gets laid to rest.

Worst case scenario, cat goes out of business... I trade in my boots for boat shoes, get a lifted chevy, pit vipers and a flat bill hat - then head to the polaris dealership.

 

[IDspud]

Don’t forget your GoPro in case you accidentally do something cool.

 

[ratlover]

I can’t wear my pitvipers when I ride my cat? Don’t have any flat bill hats but pretty disappointed about having to leave my pits in the truck.

I do like and appreciate updates and improvements but I also appreciate when a company doesn’t just change stuff to change stuff. Makes getting parts a pain when you end up with bastard years and aftermarket doesn't like to support limited runs either.

 

[IDspud]

Oh, my bad, you’re from Washington you already gots a GoPro.

 

[boondocker97]

I've got no problem arguing every bit of this ?

Marketing is not Cats problem. It's not. Period. They are running an old azz chassis with an 800. That's the problem. Old chassis. 800.

Myself and many others act like there were lots of ground breaking changes on the other brands over the last 10 or so years? There were. Were the XP and the XM the same chassis? Yeah. Same sled? Not even close, the XM was a HUGE upgrade from the XP. To this day I do not understand what makes that sled work so much better than the XP. The Gen 4 850 again a huge leap. Turbo 2 stroke? Game changer. The Gen 5 isn't all new, but its damn close. The turbo R has some internal changes and will be a whole nother animal over the current turbo. 15hp bump is more than Cat has had since mountain sled inception. Twist it however you want, Doos sled today is a COMPLETLY different animal than it was in 2012.

Polaris? The Axys a lifted Pro? IDK. Kinda, sorta(not really actually, 90% new parts I believe), but you jump back and forth and it's not even close. The 850 was a success. They sold thousands and thousands of them. A few burned down early on and the whole world heard about every one. The matryx is a rebodied axys, with a new tunnel (don't even try to compare the Cat tunnel to it ?), but you start adding up the changes, and it's a significantly different sled. Boost? Well, the Poo is making 200hp at 10k and your Cats making 120hp. NICE!

On to Cat...
2012- train wreck
2013 better
2014....
2015....
2016 3" track, k everyone else is doing that, lil skid change... still a trenchin Cat...
2017- actually a big year IMO, the mountain cat finally started to work the way it should have in 2012.
2018 big year with the ascender and the new motor, the motor though, HONESTLY, not a huge improvement, similar to like the 2015 800 to the 2016 Poo HO.
2019 Alpha comes out, step in the right direction, some innovation, maybe Cat actually cares...
2020...
2021...
2022...
2023?????

Yes there were alot of other small changes in there... big changes? No. Meaningful changes? No. I could name a ton of little changes the other brands made over the years too if we wanna go there.

I'll say it again, the current Cat is NOT a bad sled. Neither was the 2016 Axys, or the 2013 XM, but I'm really glad we've moved on from them. Cats current offering just really feels, and kind of is prehistoric compared to the other options. They are in 3rd, without a doubt, if you think otherwise, you're nuts.

As far as the King Cat and kids sleds, I don't care, just don't, and not interested in even going there because we could argue about the rest of the lineup too, and I'm not brand loyal enough to give a fugg about that.

"I’m not saying I don’t want to see change or that change is bad, but when the product is good, change simply for the sake of change is unnecessary." - I loved my 2007 Classic Duramax, I could drive that thing till the day I die, it's the perfect pickup. In 2007 I woulda told Chevy to hang it up, I've got all I need. I'm really glad they didn't, my 2020 is a better pickup in nearly every way. Change and forward progression is ALWAYS a good thing, and you will not change my mind about that...










Or anything else

2012 (agree it was a train wreck)
2013 Limiteds got short coolers and painted tunnels and rails cutting way down on snow and ice buildup.
2014 had 26 improvements over the 2013 scattered throughout the sled. Rode better than it's predecessors and truely was IMO what the 2012 should have been.
2016 got new suspension geometry front and rear, all new clutches, stronger chain case components, new skis, and a 3" track option. Rode better than its predecessors. This was as good of an overhaul as a XP to a XM IMO.
2017 Mountain Cat got revised driveshaft location and narrower running boards/belly pan, lighter tunnel. Yamaha turbo powerplant. Rumor is should have been new motor too, but changed piston vendors. Polaris would have hyped it, sent it, and dealt with the fallout.
2018 new motor, new primary clutch, new plastic, dropped a little weight. Between 2017 and 2018 change to Ascender was another XP to XM type update.
2019 Alpha rail and track option with 10" wheels to free up HP and new skis.
2021 equivalent of FOX IQS suspension setup available from the factory.
2022 Finally sealed up the intake!!! (haha) New lighter, narrower primary clutch.

Hardly any big tech videos explaining and touting how much better all these things were. Small video animation of the Alpha rail and Adapt clutch, but nothing that really would give you a grasp of by how much it was going to improve your riding experience. Oh, and this gem from 2013!

To say they don't have a marketing problem is silly. Many of the things you missed in your list proves that. I don't know if Cat doesn't like hyping their improvements because they think it also highlights the faults of older models, but they need to forget that and hire people that can spin that stuff over their competition. That old video of Rob and Dave there generated a lot of discussion regardless of how true or scientific it was. Even if the static weight is more, tout the riding weight and how balanced the sled is left to right... like this SnoWest graphic from the 2014s. Everyone would have sworn a Polaris was the lightest to tip, but the data showed it was heaviest one way. My new supercharger sled is perfectly balanced from one side to the other and it's pretty nice!


Cat's dealer network and racer support needs improvement. Badly. No discussion there.

There also seems to be a huge problem with the bean counters holding back innovation. The 2012 prototypes were lightweight tube chassis rigs. The Alpha rail concept was on the snow in 2013. What Cat engineering and R&D cooked up in the past and has behind doors right now are good things. Cat and Textron have a problem not seeing the forest for the trees and need to get the stuff out on the snow and sell it! Some of us just get frustrated waiting sometimes.

 

[Calvin42]

Everyone can say it was a failure of this or that, but for those of us that have been riding a long time, if things don't change, it's going to be 1982-83 all over again.

 

[summ8rmk]

Chadly told me I had no credibility once cuz my avatar was a cat in a santa suit, this one hurt a little more. LOL.

Haha, ur good.
Sometimes we speak more from the emotional side rather than from the intellectual side.

That statement was actually the most factual statement in this whole thread. The flaw is, it wasn't consistent with the rest of ur posts. Therefore, ur conviction was lost.

What I see between u and Vern is, glass half full vs glass half empty.

U see cat as 1/2 empty , vern sees cat as 1/2 full.


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[Vern]

What I see is once you get off the keyboard and out on the snow cats sled works as good as anything on the snow. They’re not near as far behind as the internet would have you believe.

I’m also not naïve enough to think slapping bngs on every year is going to help cats bottom line either. They definitely need to do something in the near future to spark interest again, especially in this current era where everyone expects everything yesterday. They just need to be careful going about it, because like I already stated, the market is not near as forgiving to cat as the other two brands for some reason.

 

[10003514]

I've owned all 3 brands since 2019. Cat was competitive in 2019/2020 and that's where it ended. Cat does not compete with the new offerings from Skidoo and Polaris at all. Cat has a good track and it ends there. Maybe we will see a reborn cat brand but they are running out of time. I feel bad for dealers that have cat as their solo winter brand.

 

[anziconda]

Im suprised that the concept of electrical power plant hadnt been talked about…Maybe thats why they arent chasing the 850-900 ccs from other manufacturers. When you see how Tesla plaids are smoking almost every gas powered car out there, it would be silly not to look into this!! No elevation power loss, no noise to piss off left wing bitches, no emmisions, instant torque, fewer moving parts….by far=lighter and more dependable.
Dont get me wrong, I love the braaap of a good ol 2 smoke, but youre fooling yourselves if you think that they will be around for much longer.

 

[summ8rmk]

Need better battery technology for the mtn sleds.
All the manufacturers are already working on electric platforms.

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[Vern]

I've owned all 3 brands since 2019. Cat was competitive in 2019/2020 and that's where it ended. Cat does not compete with the new offerings from Skidoo and Polaris at all. Cat has a good track and it ends there. Maybe we will see a reborn cat brand but they are running out of time. I feel bad for dealers that have cat as their solo winter brand.

Why because of the turbos? Doo and poo still sell na sleds, and probably far more than they do turbos, and they haven’t changed since that time frame you stated so how would cat be any less competitive in that class?

 

[IDspud]

Electric is insanely heavy.
Go research weights on electric cars/trucks vs comparable gas. Not a great recipe for snow unless your bar running or ice fishing.