2023 cat. Where is it?

[boondocker97]

The problem with the 900 and 1000s in the past were that they over built them and made them too heavy. When the aftermarket can bolt 12-1300 big bore kits on them and race gas turbos running in the high teens for boost pressure (or both in some cases) making 250+hp on an engine that was 165 from the factory and they survive... Technology is letting manufacturers get more power per cc reliably than they used to.

I wouldn't touch a new Polaris motor with a 10' pole the first year, but I think they are on the right track going bigger while keeping the same size engine and lightening the rotating assembly.

Tell me why guys don't do a little hot rodding on their sleds like cars? 50 cc's is hardly a thing in the engine world right? A little head work a dished piston punch the cylinders 30 and your there?? Now iam sure guys can by a "hot tune" for their fuel injection and voila "big bore" ??? I still can't believe it's a thing really cause in the car world that's just a freshn up not a big bore!?? Don't hear guys talking about forged lightweight cranks or cool billett flowed heads and flywheels balanced and lightened yada yada ....seems like the real advancements are chassis designs but honestly as a new rider who wants to be deep in the backcountry, nothing more important to me than not breaking down! So iam perplexed by the idea that you can have both but iam old so?? I remember blowing up brand new engines just trying to do a turbo with a carb lol.

Some do, but it gets pretty expensive. You're looking at $4,000 by the time its all said and done for a full meal deal big bore. With the power these engines produce per displacement they can get a lot more temperamental on tuning than automotive 4 strokes. I feel like my big bore 900 running just shy of 200hp at sea level is an awesome place to be for a mountain sled powerplant. I've never really felt like I needed more power with it and I can hold it open when it's deep and get around really well. Plus it's still lightweight. My supercharger is pretty fun at times, but without being in deep snow where you can put that power to work it's too much in a lot of situations. Especially with the low snow we have this year. I think I'm parking it for now in favor of the 900 unless some big spring storms show up.

 

[hansenmac]

I take regular digs at you guys because year after year you’re happy with the same sled from the year before. Thats cool… glad you guys are easy to please, but its OK to want and demand more from Cat. Innovation and change are GOOD, and new DOES NOT mean it’s automatically unreliable or untested.

Since 2012 Cat has had the Pro Climb and the Ascender, with the 800 HO and the 800 Ctec. Do has had the XP, the XM, the G4, the G5, with the 800 Etec, 850 Etec, the 850 Etec Turbo, and the 850 Etec Turbo R. Polaris has had the Pro Ride, the Axys, and the Matryx, with the 800 2011-2015, the other 800 2016-IDk, the 850 Patriot, the 850 Patriot Boost, and now the 9R. Whats my point? Cat doesn’t do chit. Its boring. Its not poor marketing, its just the same lame chit year after year.

“Well Polaris has their customers do their R&D”… Ok, I have had nothing but good experiences since 2011 along with all of the people I ride with (buddy had a 16 Axys that was a lemon, but his 2013 Cat was bigger but POS, annnd his 2012 was even worse). Ya you see more problems with Polaris but thats mostly the result of there being 10 times as many of them on the snow… you’re gonna see and hear more stories of breakdowns. Doo steadily comes out with new stuff that works flawless. Cats capable. It can be new, and better, and reliable. I don’t get the new is bad mindset… but I’m young, and based on the way most you think I’m pretty sure you’re NOT ? I just get sick of Cat blowing it every year. They are good sleds but the have to do SOMETHING to attract new buyers and its like they refuse.

I’ll say it again, the current Cat is a GOOD sled, buts its the same damn sled every year (yes I understand the evolution from what it was in 2012). People are not gonna buy it if its not shiny, new, the latest, or the greatest.

New is Ok.
New is Ok.
New is Ok.

Ok rant over, sorry.

The problem isnt that the sleds are the same every year the problem is that cats marking dept doesnt advertise what's new and what features they have that others dont. Many times my polaris riding buddies say " the new polaris has this or the new polaris is gunna have that" and i look at them and say yeah 14 cat had that years ago my 18 cat has that etc etc. factory tether powder coated rails and tunnel front cooler so the tunnel isnt covered in 30lbs of ice A arms that are not cardboard bumbers that work best powder track in the industry reliable engines air shocks adjustable air shocks narrow ski stance alpha rail. I think all the sleds are very very good. and doo and poo seem to change there sleds more often, and new sells, also good marketing sells sleds. All that being said i do want more from a new sled or else why buy new.

 

[Clark42]

The problem isnt that the sleds are the same every year the problem is that cats marking dept doesnt advertise what's new and what features they have that others dont. Many times my polaris riding buddies say " the new polaris has this or the new polaris is gunna have that" and i look at them and say yeah 14 cat had that years ago my 18 cat has that etc etc. factory tether powder coated rails and tunnel front cooler so the tunnel isnt covered in 30lbs of ice A arms that are not cardboard bumbers that work best powder track in the industry reliable engines air shocks adjustable air shocks narrow ski stance alpha rail. I think all the sleds are very very good. and doo and poo seem to change there sleds more often, and new sells, also good marketing sells sleds. All that being said i do want more from a new sled or else why buy new.

you can add the rolling bearing clutch to that too, really nice feature

 

[goridedoo]

The problem isnt that the sleds are the same every year the problem is that cats marking dept doesnt advertise what's new and what features they have that others dont. Many times my polaris riding buddies say " the new polaris has this or the new polaris is gunna have that" and i look at them and say yeah 14 cat had that years ago my 18 cat has that etc etc. factory tether powder coated rails and tunnel front cooler so the tunnel isnt covered in 30lbs of ice A arms that are not cardboard bumbers that work best powder track in the industry reliable engines air shocks adjustable air shocks narrow ski stance alpha rail. I think all the sleds are very very good. and doo and poo seem to change there sleds more often, and new sells, also good marketing sells sleds. All that being said i do want more from a new sled or else why buy new.

Their marketing is terrible. Their marketing is not the problem.

 

[CO 2.0]

Problem is I feel the need to drop $3k in parts to get my 22 to be on par with a stock out of the box matrix. I spent 17hrs of my time working on my new sled.

The cat has a lot of great things I like over a Polaris. I feel its less twitchy and tracks better, which in a lot of conditions makes it very predictable. Track is the best on the market and with a single rail the traction is amazing. Steers and pulls over way harder, which is ruining my shoulders at 42, I even went with estart this year to compensate. Cat doesnt sidehill near as steep. Change the boards, narrow the panels and front more. Bring back a 2 rail option with the alpha track. Raise the chassis. Get a bit more cc's and power, but I feel the track and 800 combo now powers through everything well. I don't really want a turbo or the added weight for what I ride. Rather have big bore naturally aspirated power 9 out of 10 days. Get rid of the chaincase. Shift the motor over with a smaller can to help a chassis narrow. Doesn't really need any more rider forward, maybe a tad. Cut down tunnel length more with a raised rear bumper.

All of this will require a new chassis and bulkhead, but they've had 10 years to figure it out and know what we really want for the mountains. If they don't know all this, or do something great and not patching their product, then they will go under eventually.

 

[Vern]

Since 2012 Cat has had the Pro Climb and the Ascender, with the 800 HO and the 800 Ctec. Do has had the XP, the XM, the G4, the G5, with the 800 Etec, 850 Etec, the 850 Etec Turbo, and the 850 Etec Turbo R. Polaris has had the Pro Ride, the Axys, and the Matryx, with the 800 2011-2015, the other 800 2016-IDk, the 850 Patriot, the 850 Patriot Boost, and now the 9R. Whats my point? Cat doesn’t do chit. Its boring. Its not poor marketing, its just the same lame chit year after year.

This right here is exactly the reason cats lack of marketing is their biggest problem.

You, and many others, act like there were multiple ground breaking changes from doo and poo for the same years as the proclimb/ascender were around, while cat did nothing but that’s not the case if your honest with your self. Xp and xm were the same chassis with a suspension and plastic change and that chassis was around for 8 years, yet doo didn’t get drug through the mud for some reason. The g4 and g5 are the same chassis with new plastics and narrow running boards but it’s some how revolutionary and puts skidoo “so far ahead of everyone else” even though cat made those same changes 4 years ago. I don’t consider the turbo and turbo r different engines either when it’s most likely nothing more than a tune change. So they really had one new chassis come out, one new engine then added a turbo during that time frame. Far from ground breaking tech changes every other year like people act.

Poo maybe made a few more changes with the engines, but even they haven’t changed things as drastically as people make it sound. They went from pro to axys, which you could argue is a new chassis even though the axys is just a pro with a lift kit. From pro 800 to axys 800 engine, which everyone knows was needed with how horrible the pro engine was. Then came the 850 which also got off to a bad start. Then the matryx comes out which is just a rebodied axys and once again it’s hailed as revolutionary even though all of its hot “new” features besides the turbo have been on these outdated proclimb/ascender sleds for years. Such as the short tunnel which cats ran since 2009, powder coated tunnel and short cooler on cat since 2013, roller bearing clutch cat 2017, magnetic tether cat 2019, heck the matryx even switched to the same master cylinder that cats been running since 2019 or so if you wanna get not picky. So basically Polaris has released 1 actual new chassis, a couple engines that were needed, and a turbo. Again not drastic changes every other year. Sure the bulkhead on the cat my be the same as 2012 but that’s about it. They’ve basically made improvements on that sled every single year from the time it came out with the big ones being all new suspension in 2016 with 3 inch powerclaw, dropped chain case and narrow running boards in 2017, new plastics and engine in ‘18, alpha in ‘19, and atacc or whatever the push button shocks are called in ‘21. So it’s definitely not that they haven’t done anything, yet that’s how everyone acts. Doo or poo make a simple plastics change and it’s praised as revolutionary, cat does the exact same thing and they get ridiculed for it. That’s where the marketing aspect comes in imo. Or lack there of in cats case. People literally have no idea that cat has made changes because cat doesn’t talk about them. Then you get the nonsense comments that the current sled is the same sled as the pile that came out in 2012 which anyone that’s rode both know is far from the truth.

 

[Vern]

Almost forgot, cat brought us the king cat in 2017, that puts them in the 2 engine club, 3 if you count the 600 that came out in 2014. Not to mention all the kids sleds cat has brought out over the last few years as well that the others don’t have, well until next year since doo is selling cats now.

I’m not saying I don’t want to see change or that change is bad, but when the product is good, change simply for the sake of change is unnecessary. Besides for whatever reason if poo or doo drop a bad first year product people make excuses for them and it just fades away, but if cat drops a bad product they never live it down. Case in point, the 2012 proclimb that the current sleds are still being judged by. So it’s probably in cats best interest to take the time to get the next model right before releasing it.

 

[deanross]

Almost forgot, cat brought us the king cat in 2017, that puts them in the 2 engine club, 3 if you count the 600 that came out in 2014. Not to mention all the kids sleds cat has brought out over the last few years as well that the others don’t have, well until next year since doo is selling cats now.

I’m not saying I don’t want to see change or that change is bad, but when the product is good, change simply for the sake of change is unnecessary. Besides for whatever reason if poo or doo drop a bad first year product people make excuses for them and it just fades away, but if cat drops a bad product they never live it down. Case in point, the 2012 proclimb that the current sleds are still being judged by. So it’s probably in cats best interest to take the time to get the next model right before releasing it.

Agreed as others have also mentioned including myself a while back. Cats 2012 belt issues were a huge topic along with some later clutch issues. Everyone beats down on Cat forever, never ended. Polaris engine issues, doo’s clutch issues get some chatter, but hey as someone on here said a couple years ago. “ I’m fine with rebuilding my engine every year as long as I have the lightest sled. If cat had Polaris engine issues for as many years as they did they they would be gone. But because it’s the other brand, move along, nothing to see here. I like my cat sled, but I have a Ski doo in the trailer also and have owned a Polaris in the past.

 

[CO 2.0]

Cat has engine issues too with Ctec. The newer 21+ motors seem better but I'll let time tell me that as I only have 500mi on my 21 riotx. But seem to get more oil in the bottom end that dont cause the rod to crank bearing failures. Blew 3 motors in my 18 Cat in 1700mi. 2 motors in my 19 alpha 1200mi. Luckily my 19 MC has 1000mi on original motor. Only motor without the Cat reflash. I get about 500mi out of poo 800 motors axys, pro, dragon. That was given for my past. Just hope the 9R I checked will last 1000mi, then I'll be content.

 

[IDspud]

I ride with a lot of 18-22 cats and I thank you sir for taking all the engine issues for the rest of us.

Around 16k Ctec miles across four sleds and only under hood issues have been 2 primaries pulled still functional to try adapts out.

 

[North]

I agree that Cat takes more heat than it deserves, but at a certain point you have to admit some of it is warranted. I didn't hear a lot of Cat bashing when I got into sleds in 2010, but at that time Cat had the best sled, best athletes, period. The pace of development seems much slower at AC now, they have parts availability issues (before COVID), dealer support is by all accounts terrible (a surefire way to get people, in sales no less, talking negatively about your product), and I have to wonder if it just boils down to funding. BRP and Polaris are huge companies that are clearly invested in snowmobiling. Can anybody say for certain that Textron is? Cat has no chance of keeping pace or even surviving if Textron isn't interested in competing.

 

[IDspud]

Past ten years I’ve obtained every cat part I’ve needed within 48 hours, majority within 24 hours.

 

[goridedoo]

This right here is exactly the reason cats lack of marketing is their biggest problem.

You, and many others, act like there were multiple ground breaking changes from doo and poo for the same years as the proclimb/ascender were around, while cat did nothing but that’s not the case if your honest with your self. Xp and xm were the same chassis with a suspension and plastic change and that chassis was around for 8 years, yet doo didn’t get drug through the mud for some reason. The g4 and g5 are the same chassis with new plastics and narrow running boards but it’s some how revolutionary and puts skidoo “so far ahead of everyone else” even though cat made those same changes 4 years ago. I don’t consider the turbo and turbo r different engines either when it’s most likely nothing more than a tune change. So they really had one new chassis come out, one new engine then added a turbo during that time frame. Far from ground breaking tech changes every other year like people act.

Poo maybe made a few more changes with the engines, but even they haven’t changed things as drastically as people make it sound. They went from pro to axys, which you could argue is a new chassis even though the axys is just a pro with a lift kit. From pro 800 to axys 800 engine, which everyone knows was needed with how horrible the pro engine was. Then came the 850 which also got off to a bad start. Then the matryx comes out which is just a rebodied axys and once again it’s hailed as revolutionary even though all of its hot “new” features besides the turbo have been on these outdated proclimb/ascender sleds for years. Such as the short tunnel which cats ran since 2009, powder coated tunnel and short cooler on cat since 2013, roller bearing clutch cat 2017, magnetic tether cat 2019, heck the matryx even switched to the same master cylinder that cats been running since 2019 or so if you wanna get not picky. So basically Polaris has released 1 actual new chassis, a couple engines that were needed, and a turbo. Again not drastic changes every other year. Sure the bulkhead on the cat my be the same as 2012 but that’s about it. They’ve basically made improvements on that sled every single year from the time it came out with the big ones being all new suspension in 2016 with 3 inch powerclaw, dropped chain case and narrow running boards in 2017, new plastics and engine in ‘18, alpha in ‘19, and atacc or whatever the push button shocks are called in ‘21. So it’s definitely not that they haven’t done anything, yet that’s how everyone acts. Doo or poo make a simple plastics change and it’s praised as revolutionary, cat does the exact same thing and they get ridiculed for it. That’s where the marketing aspect comes in imo. Or lack there of in cats case. People literally have no idea that cat has made changes because cat doesn’t talk about them. Then you get the nonsense comments that the current sled is the same sled as the pile that came out in 2012 which anyone that’s rode both know is far from the truth.

I've got no problem arguing every bit of this ?

Marketing is not Cats problem. It's not. Period. They are running an old azz chassis with an 800. That's the problem. Old chassis. 800.

Myself and many others act like there were lots of ground breaking changes on the other brands over the last 10 or so years? There were. Were the XP and the XM the same chassis? Yeah. Same sled? Not even close, the XM was a HUGE upgrade from the XP. To this day I do not understand what makes that sled work so much better than the XP. The Gen 4 850 again a huge leap. Turbo 2 stroke? Game changer. The Gen 5 isn't all new, but its damn close. The turbo R has some internal changes and will be a whole nother animal over the current turbo. 15hp bump is more than Cat has had since mountain sled inception. Twist it however you want, Doos sled today is a COMPLETLY different animal than it was in 2012.

Polaris? The Axys a lifted Pro? IDK. Kinda, sorta(not really actually, 90% new parts I believe), but you jump back and forth and it's not even close. The 850 was a success. They sold thousands and thousands of them. A few burned down early on and the whole world heard about every one. The matryx is a rebodied axys, with a new tunnel (don't even try to compare the Cat tunnel to it ?), but you start adding up the changes, and it's a significantly different sled. Boost? Well, the Poo is making 200hp at 10k and your Cats making 120hp. NICE!

On to Cat...
2012- train wreck
2013 better
2014....
2015....
2016 3" track, k everyone else is doing that, lil skid change... still a trenchin Cat...
2017- actually a big year IMO, the mountain cat finally started to work the way it should have in 2012.
2018 big year with the ascender and the new motor, the motor though, HONESTLY, not a huge improvement, similar to like the 2015 800 to the 2016 Poo HO.
2019 Alpha comes out, step in the right direction, some innovation, maybe Cat actually cares...
2020...
2021...
2022...
2023?????

Yes there were alot of other small changes in there... big changes? No. Meaningful changes? No. I could name a ton of little changes the other brands made over the years too if we wanna go there.

I'll say it again, the current Cat is NOT a bad sled. Neither was the 2016 Axys, or the 2013 XM, but I'm really glad we've moved on from them. Cats current offering just really feels, and kind of is prehistoric compared to the other options. They are in 3rd, without a doubt, if you think otherwise, you're nuts.

As far as the King Cat and kids sleds, I don't care, just don't, and not interested in even going there because we could argue about the rest of the lineup too, and I'm not brand loyal enough to give a fugg about that.

"I’m not saying I don’t want to see change or that change is bad, but when the product is good, change simply for the sake of change is unnecessary." - I loved my 2007 Classic Duramax, I could drive that thing till the day I die, it's the perfect pickup. In 2007 I woulda told Chevy to hang it up, I've got all I need. I'm really glad they didn't, my 2020 is a better pickup in nearly every way. Change and forward progression is ALWAYS a good thing, and you will not change my mind about that...










Or anything else

 

[IDspud]

When did your mind become a concern here?
Personally never had a use for it, let alone a reason to change it.
Most of us have our own.

 

[turboless terry]

And it gets personal. There is a pile of truth in the above statement. Basically all of it.

 

[Vern]

I've got no problem arguing every bit of this ?

Marketing is not Cats problem. It's not. Period. They are running an old azz chassis with an 800. That's the problem. Old chassis. 800.

Myself and many others act like there were lots of ground breaking changes on the other brands over the last 10 or so years? There were. Were the XP and the XM the same chassis? Yeah. Same sled? Not even close, the XM was a HUGE upgrade from the XP. To this day I do not understand what makes that sled work so much better than the XP. The Gen 4 850 again a huge leap. Turbo 2 stroke? Game changer. The Gen 5 isn't all new, but its damn close. The turbo R has some internal changes and will be a whole nother animal over the current turbo. 15hp bump is more than Cat has had since mountain sled inception. Twist it however you want, Doos sled today is a COMPLETLY different animal than it was in 2012.

Polaris? The Axys a lifted Pro? IDK. Kinda, sorta(not really actually, 90% new parts I believe), but you jump back and forth and it's not even close. The 850 was a success. They sold thousands and thousands of them. A few burned down early on and the whole world heard about every one. The matryx is a rebodied axys, with a new tunnel (don't even try to compare the Cat tunnel to it ?), but you start adding up the changes, and it's a significantly different sled. Boost? Well, the Poo is making 200hp at 10k and your Cats making 120hp. NICE!

On to Cat...
2012- train wreck
2013 better
2014....
2015....
2016 3" track, k everyone else is doing that, lil skid change... still a trenchin Cat...
2017- actually a big year IMO, the mountain cat finally started to work the way it should have in 2012.
2018 big year with the ascender and the new motor, the motor though, HONESTLY, not a huge improvement, similar to like the 2015 800 to the 2016 Poo HO.
2019 Alpha comes out, step in the right direction, some innovation, maybe Cat actually cares...
2020...
2021...
2022...
2023?????

Yes there were alot of other small changes in there... big changes? No. Meaningful changes? No. I could name a ton of little changes the other brands made over the years too if we wanna go there.

I'll say it again, the current Cat is NOT a bad sled. Neither was the 2016 Axys, or the 2013 XM, but I'm really glad we've moved on from them. Cats current offering just really feels, and kind of is prehistoric compared to the other options. They are in 3rd, without a doubt, if you think otherwise, you're nuts.

As far as the King Cat and kids sleds, I don't care, just don't, and not interested in even going there because we could argue about the rest of the lineup too, and I'm not brand loyal enough to give a fugg about that.

"I’m not saying I don’t want to see change or that change is bad, but when the product is good, change simply for the sake of change is unnecessary." - I loved my 2007 Classic Duramax, I could drive that thing till the day I die, it's the perfect pickup. In 2007 I woulda told Chevy to hang it up, I've got all I need. I'm really glad they didn't, my 2020 is a better pickup in nearly every way. Change and forward progression is ALWAYS a good thing, and you will not change my mind about that...










Or anything else

Nobody’s trying to change anyones mind here, but your comments pretty much proved my point on the double standard. You basically just said doo and poo make minor changes, it equates to a huge deal. When cat does the same, its equivalent to doing nothing. If all your worried about is 200hp at 10k feet, and want to get technical, cat and Yamaha had that 5 years ago.

 

[turboless terry]

Dont agree with 18 motor comment

 

[goridedoo]

Nobody’s trying to change anyones mind here, but your comments pretty much proved my point on the double standard. You basically just said doo and poo make minor changes, it equates to a huge deal. When cat does the same, its equivalent to doing nothing. If all your worried about is 200hp at 10k feet, and want to get technical, cat and Yamaha had that 5 years ago.

Proved your point? Cats not making changes at the rate that Doo and Poo are.

They’ve really fallen behind, and they are gonna have a really hard time selling 2023s if they don’t step up.

 

[IDspud]

Because of the enormous surplus of crated cats laying around?

 

[Devilmanak]

Past ten years I’ve obtained every cat part I’ve needed within 48 hours, majority within 24 hours.

I waited a full year for a right side intake vent on Tater's 16 M6000.