Turbo kit component thread

[M5-]

Now waste gates.

Garrett has a pretty nice description with pics saves me a bunch of typing. The Mitsu wastegates are bascally the same as the Garretts. You see this question come up a lot of the times by newcomers to turbos "How do you adjust the boost on an MCX kit?". Can it be done, well yes it can. The waste gate on a Garret or Mitsu turbo is held in place by a spring loaded pot. The spring provides a range of available boost from 0 lbs to whatever. So basically all a boost controller does is spill air within the limits that the spring is set at. So if you want more boost shorten the length the wastegate rod thus increasing the spring tension, less boost make it longer. An automatic boost controller and a manual boost controller do the same thing, they its just that the automatic one is tied to baromteric pressure (pressure equals elevation) thats how it can alter the peak boost, with a manual contoller its up to you to adjust the boost for elevation, totally the same deal neither determines what your peak boost is set at they just allow you to adjust it wintin a set range depending on the controller.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/wastegates

M5

 

[Tuesday]

Ah sorry for the confusion, first off didnt know you had an mcx and secondly I misunderstood that you wanted to discuss each component individually.

GL with the build. I agree there is room for improvement and a mix a match set should give you maximum gains.

 

[Climbmax]

Great topic........Im a Mitz guy. Had one fail by puking oil but still ran. New Cartridge and all is still good.
Im not a fan of Ball Bearing Turbos as I have seen many fail completeley......maybe Im wrong but its just what I have seen. A 19T seems to be a very strong turbo with great output in the application it currently is used most often.....but maybe that is the Snow to air charge tube as well
Safe sledding
RS

 

[BigFish BC]

i think we will start to see the gtx series of turbos allot more the billet wheels make a huge diff in on of throttle drive-ability & throttle response.most of the garrets i have seen fail were running big boost ,more than likely to much for the size of the turbo.its been a few years since i have seen any fail,but the kit builders have gotten alot better at building there kits, matching the amount of boost & altitude guys run at to keep the turbo in its map.mitsu makes a great tough turbo dont know if they are making billet wheel turbos yet or not but you can get them in the aftermarket.i think this will be the next step for the kit makers selling billet wheel turbos with there kits some are already but only as a upgrade ie impulse & alpine.

 

[M5-]

Good post BF thats what we are looking for

M5

 

[mattymac]

M5, you skipped the CFM on the 2860 since it probably is one of the most common sizes on sleds today, good to have on your list for comparison!

http://www.atpturbo.com/

One of the best turbo parts suppliers I have dealt with, also the cartridge exchange for the garretts making it a bit cheaper to get your BB turbo back up and going! also doing the GTX series and tial parts as well!

I will say that the tial Q series BOV that impulse uses on their kits can benifit from running the hot pink 3lb spring, the standard spring supplied with this BOV is either 10 or 11 lbs and is to stiff to open about 98% of the time!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TIAL-BOV-50...Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item5d325cca58

I sourced out the parts from ATP to run a 3 inch side pipe on my apex, its a little loud yeah but runs way better and alot more consistant than the top side tunnel dump!

 

[M5-]

M5, you skipped the CFM on the 2860 since it probably is one of the most common sizes on sleds today, good to have on your list for comparison!

Fixed it, I failed typing in school.

M5

 

[Iceman56]

So what's everyones thought on the best turbo you can run? I mean is there something better out there then the GTX from gerrett? I know some of the big guys run and try different turbos but they keep it pretty hush hush.

What about the EFR turbo from BW? Anyone try them? Precision, HTA, custom hybrid turbos???
If I were gonna do an all out build with motor work etc.. I would want the best turbo I could buy on it.

M5 sorry if this against the rules of your thread, not sure if this is "off topic" since none of the turbo kit suppliers offer these turbos. Let me know and delete it if so.

 

[M5-]

I know that there are lots of better turbos out there for sure but I think price keeps them out of the bread and butter kits. You can spend $1500- $2000 on just the turbo depending on how you spec it. Most of the companies making kits seem to be targeting price points probably with the exception of Impulse as he seems to just build what he thinks is the best at the time and they cost what they cost. So what you end up with is comapnies trying to come in under 4k 5k 6k whatever so it just doesn't leave much on the table for them which is why you are seeing turbos like the Mitsu 15G's in kits, you can buy one brand new for $649.00.

If you were willing to spend say 8K on materials and parts for a purpose built kit a guy could make a pretty skookum kit. Theres' tons of guys who know WAY more than me and I haven't looked that seriously at all the other top notch turbos out there so maybe somebody with some better info will chime in.

M5

 

[M5-]

I'll start intercoolers but I'm hoping Dave from Powderlites will jump in here cause I know he has spent a lot of time optimizing intercoolers. Simply put they are there to reduce the chance of deto and to create more power.

Might as well mention it up front here and its JMO but in the future I think you're going to see all the high end kits coming as liquid/air. In the automotive world a really good air to air with the IC in the front of the car makes perfect sense and probably will perform as well as a Liquid/Air system but on sleds in particular the Nytro you have huge packaging restrictions and its really tough to get any honest air flow through the intercooler core. Impulse and others have stood the intercooler up as in their Apex kit in an attempt to get some airflow. The MCX intercooler in the Nytro gets no air. I have vents and all that crap but they don't really work and the IC gets hot but it does fit under the hood. The nice thing about a sled is you can put a heat exchanger/cooler in the tunnel to cool your liquid air core and you have a nice consistent source of cooling. Way more predictable charge temps.

The air charge coming out of the turbo can easily get over 250 degrees f which causes the air to expand. As a result you end up with less dense air which means less O2, less fuel and ultimately less power. A good designed intercooler is a must IMO. I don't know what the effectiveness really is but I believe that the under tunnel charge tube on the MCX kits does a lot of the cooling which is likely why the 180 kit has no intercooler that and the fact that the 180 makes under 10 lbs boost. If you ever cut one up you'll see they are finned in the tube which acts as a pre cooler, so maybe chalk one up for the rear mounts.

All air to air intercoolers have pressure drop (can be as much as 4lbs), a lot more than the liquid air cores lots of which are less than 1 lb. So the boost you see on your guage taken from the plenum is less than what the turbo is actually putting out. Here's where sizing your turbo into its efficiency range comes in. If your turbo goes off the compressor map at say 12 lbs and you are running 12 lbs on your guage you are already out of the game and just making more heat than power, say goodbye to your exhaust side. There's theory out there up the ying yang on end tank design but in general I'd be inclined to steer away from ICS with squared off end tanks as the can create dead spots through the core. Most of the ones I've seen are pretty decent now days. Should your IC have velocity stacks? Well I think yes but maybe again thats just me.

One of the things a guy can check without being a scientist is how does the IC attach to the sled/engine. I've welded up a few IC's from different companies that have cracked because they weren't supported very well. They seem to all crack where the .065 end tank attaches to the 1/8" core plate. Look for good solid brackets, this especially true if you buy a low boost kit and expect to turn up the boost at a later date because while the IC will stay on at 6lbs it'll blow off for sure probably just over 10 lbs boost it needs some kind of system to attach it to the motor besides the FI boots.

There are a few different core stlyes out there like bar and plate (Impulse, I think Powderlites), tube and fin(old CPR made by Griffin) and extruded tube (MCXstyle) but they all serve the same purpose and really don't spec out much different from one another from a performance point of view. Bar and plate are supposedly the toughest most durable cores.

Thats a start, this should get interesting


M5

 

[Tuesday]

I would guess every turbo owner would ask the same question. How much air really flows through the IC? I agree its packed so tight and does not really get good air flow, unless flying down the trail? The front end gets packed with snow and a lot of the time you are not moving fast enough to get good flow.

I also love the design with the charge tube heat exchanger in the tunnel. I think it does a great job at reducing charge temperatures.

Wonder how much weight a water intercooler would add, and how much more effective would it be? I dont know a lot about the water coolers, does this add extra heat your cooling system in the end? Do you need larger heat exchangers to dissipate the heat? More weight again...boo to more weight.

Still curious on how much boost you plan on running. I understand you are looking to put together and discuss the best possible set up but knowing what your final target would be helpful.

 

[NM]

I don't post much on SW anymore mostly because of the trolls, but this is a good topic and I will stay in unless it get's out of hand.

The effect of a water to air intercooler is shocking to say the least. Like M5 says, the way that sleds are packaged, and the speed they travel in meadows and trees makes the air to air inefficient.

Here is a good example. Last season I ran my Apex at 16-18 lbs boost pulling full RPM with 94 gr Dalton weights and using a 2871R turbo with air to air intercooler.
I installed the same motor, clutches, track, and turbo on my Nypex and had to turn my boost down to 12-14 lbs to stay off the rev limiter. The sled ran completely different. Throttle response was better everywhere, the sled would never fade on a long pull no matter what the snow conditions.
The only thing we changed was adding a water to air airbox and a snow cooled aluminum gas tank.
The airbox is always cold even after a long pull. It is easily the best mod I have made to a turbo sled. We now use the same design of airbox on our Pro turbo kits and they run unbelievable for a 2 stroke at only 8 lbs boost.
We built a water to air for my Nytro, and same result. I had to turn the boost from 16-17 lbs down to 13-14 lbs.
Every airbox uses a closed loop design heat exchanger and a small electric water pump to circulate the coolant.

 

[tmk50]

I don't post much on SW anymore mostly because of the trolls, but this is a good topic and I will stay in unless it get's out of hand.

The effect of a water to air intercooler is shocking to say the least. Like M5 says, the way that sleds are packaged, and the speed they travel in meadows and trees makes the air to air inefficient.

Here is a good example. Last season I ran my Apex at 16-18 lbs boost pulling full RPM with 94 gr Dalton weights and using a 2871R turbo with air to air intercooler.
I installed the same motor, clutches, track, and turbo on my Nypex and had to turn my boost down to 12-14 lbs to stay off the rev limiter. The sled ran completely different. Throttle response was better everywhere, the sled would never fade on a long pull no matter what the snow conditions.
The only thing we changed was adding a water to air airbox and a snow cooled aluminum gas tank.
The airbox is always cold even after a long pull. It is easily the best mod I have made to a turbo sled. We now use the same design of airbox on our Pro turbo kits and they run unbelievable for a 2 stroke at only 8 lbs boost.
We built a water to air for my Nytro, and same result. I had to turn the boost from 16-17 lbs down to 13-14 lbs.
Every airbox uses a closed loop design heat exchanger and a small electric water pump to circulate the coolant.

Impressive! Did you weigh the parts before/after the install of the water2air IC? Just curious as to how much it adds? How big is the exchanger? Where in the tunnel is it mounted?

 

[NM]

Impressive! Did you weigh the parts before/after the install of the water2air IC? Just curious as to how much it adds? How big is the exchanger? Where in the tunnel is it mounted?

I did not weigh them but the intercooler is probably a wash and the pump, heat exchanger, fluid and hoses are probably another 10 lbs or so.
The advantages are hard to deny though when you can run less boost still make big power. It is much easier on all components and most importantly the turbo because it is not spinning nearly as hard to maintain boost pressure.
I think the ice cold gas helped too but to how much I am not sure. I probably could have got away with much less race fuel but I didn't bother changing from a 50/50 mix.
The heat exchanger in this sled is a piece of running board extrusion that is similar to what CR uses on their boards. Because the tank drops in to the tunnel 2 inches we had to angle it in beside the tank and use a 180 hose on the end.
We have done a couple since and used the stock Nytro heat exchanger in the tunnel which works great.

 

[08nytromtxa]

water to air

i have neils water to air intercooler on my nytro/his old nytro and can 2nd that the intercooler is cold to touch and yes i did have to turn the boost down... the weight to me is not much of an issue they are already heavier whats another 10 pounds to make your sled get ice cold charge temps??

 

[BigFish BC]

So what's everyones thought on the best turbo you can run? I mean is there something better out there then the GTX from gerrett? I know some of the big guys run and try different turbos but they keep it pretty hush hush.

What about the EFR turbo from BW? Anyone try them? Precision, HTA, custom hybrid turbos???
If I were gonna do an all out build with motor work etc.. I would want the best turbo I could buy on it.

M5 sorry if this against the rules of your thread, not sure if this is "off topic" since none of the turbo kit suppliers offer these turbos. Let me know and delete it if so.

it is crazy what you can spend on a turbo, full custom if you want the new gtx is what a hta is basicly,hta uses garret & mitsu turbos.
http://www.ringer-racing.com/product.sc?productId=178
the new borgwarner efr turbo looks like it could be a great turbo too.
http://www.borgwarnerdealer.com/
not allot of info on them out there yet.
full custom turbos
http://www.compturbo.com/products/ct2
me personally would go with the hta or the gtx.i got to try the gtx on neil turbo poo & wow impressive.if you have a garret send it to hta to get the conversion if not buy a new gtx.if you want all out power spend the extra money on motor work cams & porting it will make a bigger diff,my nyto at 15lbs will beat up on a stock motor one at 18lbs.

 

[BigFish BC]

i have neils water to air intercooler on my nytro/his old nytro and can 2nd that the intercooler is cold to touch and yes i did have to turn the boost down... the weight to me is not much of an issue they are already heavier whats another 10 pounds to make your sled get ice cold charge temps??

i will be doing one of neils kits this year after looking at yours nice clean set up,that thing was making some serious speed coming up monster at 14lbs

 

[M5-]

I don't post much on SW anymore mostly because of the trolls, but this is a good topic and I will stay in unless it get's out of hand.

Awesome I was hoping to draw in some expertise through civil discussion, kinda like SW used to be in the old days.

NM here is a question for you. If a guy changed the IC on an a say MCX kit from air to air to liquid air would the MCX fuel box map still work or would the extra efficiency of the liquid air whack the fuel map requiring a different controller or map?

M5

 

[MotoPsycho]

I ride SC's, despise turbo's, and have very few productive thoughts for this thread...

That being said - I have an acquaintance with Erik Marklund of MCX Turbo's. (owner of MC Xpress in Sweden)

I recently contacted him to help out a customer with a failed fuel controller. (MCX warranty's boxes for 1 year - this box was out of the warranty period)

During our visit, I asked Erik what the failure rate of their electronic components was.

He informed me that they have less than 3% failure rate in their boxes - this was in the last 3800-4000 kits they have built...

I think they have the smoothest working "piggyback" system in the world for the sled/utv industries. And that track record for reliability of elementally subjected electronics is second to none - not to mention the sheer volume of kits they build and sell with little or no consumer issues... simply a class act all the way from Scandinavia.

I'll stick to linear boost, but if there was not the option for it, my vote would be MCX. (I highly respect Paul from Impulse too - top notch stuff from the US - the Impulse is just WAAAAY out of my HP needs... )

SORRY, I KNOW THIS WAS NOT INDEXED IN THE DISCUSSION PROPERLY - HAD AN ADD, AND ROLLED WITH IT....

 

[Iceman56]

it is crazy what you can spend on a turbo, full custom if you want the new gtx is what a hta is basicly,hta uses garret & mitsu turbos.
http://www.ringer-racing.com/product.sc?productId=178
the new borgwarner efr turbo looks like it could be a great turbo too.
http://www.borgwarnerdealer.com/
not allot of info on them out there yet.
full custom turbos
http://www.compturbo.com/products/ct2
me personally would go with the hta or the gtx.i got to try the gtx on neil turbo poo & wow impressive.if you have a garret send it to hta to get the conversion if not buy a new gtx.if you want all out power spend the extra money on motor work cams & porting it will make a bigger diff,my nyto at 15lbs will beat up on a stock motor one at 18lbs.

Agreed... but what if you already have the motor work done, I wonder how much you could gain with some of those turbos