Supertorquer 'Central Roller Mass' Swing Arms

[Insaneboltrounder/sjohns]

OT,

A stiffer primary spring reduces clamping forces.

A stiffer secondary spring increases clamping forces.

I sure hope OT agrees with this. If not im going to start believing those old stories about his track stand testing. THE PRIMARY SPRING DOES NOT SQUEEZE ANYTHING !!!! Maybe your fingers if yu ***g up during a install. sj

 

[snowrdr]

snowrdr, looks like the ramp is flat, compared to the belly you see commonly on oem ramps. Seems very flat towards the end especially. Put an oem ramp next to it and compare.

O.T., you are like jeckle and hyde, some things it appears as if you have clue, the rest is just B.S. and jello.

Ok it is official I am out of this conversation. I will give a snow report when we finally get some to try this out. It has become very real to me that I need to stick with my day job. Too the guy I above that I quote (nothing against you) but I am clearly out of my league here. This is why I work in medicine not a great thinker when it comes to physics, if it beats and pumps blood then I am good to go!

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

is there a way that the admins can block OT from posting on threads that have clutch in the title?? seriously dude, how do you get a sled to even run with the things you say??

 

[tollen77]

Ok it is official I am out of this conversation. I will give a snow report when we finally get some to try this out. It has become very real to me that I need to stick with my day job. Too the guy I above that I quote (nothing against you) but I am clearly out of my league here. This is why I work in medicine not a great thinker when it comes to physics, if it beats and pumps blood then I am good to go!

Man, I sure hope you don't leave the conversation. Even if you put your foot in your mouth - as I often do - you're gonna learn something.

As for your ramps, I'm not sure what to say whether they're flat or what because it's all relative to an entirely different arm. For all I know, these ramps have the exact same shift characteristics as the stock Doo 413's. Pretty tough for anyone to call them steep, flat, whatever in this case.

Glad to hear you'll at least give a snow report when you get some of the white stuff. I, for one, will appreciate the input.

 

[snowrdr]

Thanks Tollen! Ok so I did not give up yet! So here is a Physics formula for all of the clutch guru's to chew on.

Centri***al Force=(3)Mass X

(6.28xRPMxRadius/60)2 / Radius

Oh my snow report is looking much better!!!! Light snow over the weekend then " a potentially significant snow event possible that the Sierra's have not seen for some years" coming. Bring it on!!!!

 

[Original Tetonice]

Good Grief You Guys....Do you really belive the primary spring does not sqweeze the belt are you All nutz ???

Since some of you seem to think the primary spring does not sqweeze the belt.....Next time your out riding in the steep & deep "remove the primary spring" and report back to the forum just how well you were able to sqweeze the belt "without" a primary spring. Either you guys are 2 drunk to remmender or 2 stoned to know any better or both.

LMAO,to the goofball who thinks the arm/ramp only sqweezes the belt.

Hmmmm i wonder if the Cat, Polaris and Yammi guys know that the primary spring does nothing to sqweeze the belt in there cvt.

Spring have 2 rates Example 180/320... The 180# is your preload engagment # go to a 160# and you will have a lower engagement go to a 200# you will have higher engagment.......The 320# is the side force that sqweezes the belt, go to a 300# and you have less primary side force and less belt sqweeze. Go to a 340# and you get more primary side force and more belt sqweeze.

The blue 185/365 included in the supertorquer kit sqweezes the belt.

OT

 

[Red-eye]

Good Grief You Guys....Do you really belive the primary spring does not sqweeze the belt are you All nutz ???

Since some of you seem to think the primary spring does not sqweeze the belt.....Next time your out riding in the steep & deep "remove the primary spring" and report back to the forum just how well you were able to sqweeze the belt "without" a primary spring. Either you guys are 2 drunk to remmender or 2 stoned to know any better or both.

LMAO,to the goofball who thinks the arm/ramp only sqweezes the belt.

Hmmmm i wonder if the Cat, Polaris and Yammi guys know that the primary spring does nothing to sqweeze the belt in there cvt.

Spring have 2 rates Example 180/320... The 180# is your preload engagment # go to a 160# and you will have a lower engagement go to a 200# you will have higher engagment.......The 320# is the side force that sqweezes the belt, go to a 300# and you have less primary side force and less belt sqweeze. Go to a 340# and you get more primary side force and more belt sqweeze.

The blue 185/365 included in the supertorquer kit sqweezes the belt.

OT

Your wrong O.T. the spring fights the weights. The yearly race manuals from BRP explain this quite well. The centrifical weights with rpm vs. the spring press. puts pres.on the belt. And yes if you take the spring out of a TRA it will work, it will just engage fast and upshift to the end with no primary back shift. simular to when you brake a spring on the trail. Take the arms out and see if you can squeeze the belt. and yes I am nutz at times and I have done drugs years ago.

 

[Original Tetonice]

This is the funnest stuff i've ever heard..."the primary belt does not sqweeze the belt"....If you believe that is truly the case than why have you not removed the primary spring from your clutch.

Whats your primary spring for if it's not sqweezing the belt ?

OT

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

OT, as the spring with lighter lower force is added, what happens to engagement?? it lowers, meaning the force required to overcome the sping is less. At X rpm the force of the weigh pushing the clutch sheave inside is x amount of force, so when the spring is stiffer, it takes more force to overwhelm the sping, therfore, at say 5000 rpm, the stiffer the spring the more force is spent overcoming the spring, NOT grabbing the belt.

I cant beleive you think the way you do OT, so if i run the same weights and run a heavier spring, my belt heat will decrease, cuz i get more clamping force??

OT, honestly, do you do this for fun or are you just retarted, cuz whenever you say we are wrong, you just ask questions about other things and dont say anything supporting your theory.

 

[DaveB]

You guys haven't learned yet have you? LOL....oh well 10 pages of jello comin' up..... FISH ON!

 

[Teth-Air]

This is the funnest stuff i've ever heard..."the primary belt does not sqweeze the belt"....If you believe that is truly the case than why have you not removed the primary spring from your clutch.

Whats your primary spring for if it's not sqweezing the belt ?

OT

You could sell ice cubes to Eskimos with your confidence, unfortunately your wrong.

This being said, good sales people are always sought after.

 

[tollen77]

Thanks Tollen! Ok so I did not give up yet! So here is a Physics formula for all of the clutch guru's to chew on.

Centri***al Force=(3)Mass X

(6.28xRPMxRadius/60)2 / Radius

Oh my snow report is looking much better!!!! Light snow over the weekend then " a potentially significant snow event possible that the Sierra's have not seen for some years" coming. Bring it on!!!!

Hey Snowrdr,

I brought up the centri***al force formula a little bit back in a different thread... unfortunately to mixed results. IMO it's a great way to better approximate the weight you should be runnning for a given ramp profile.

I've got a little experiment for you, if you've got some time on your hands. Pull your primary off and make some black marks on the face of your new ramps. Throw the thing back on and go for a run (when you have the snow of course). The marker will be rubbed off (like when you use one on the clutch sheave) and it will tell you the highest point your new arms are pushing on the ramp. Measure the max radius of your arms from the center of your primary and you should be able to calculate the amount of force applied to the ramp.

I'll do the same with my regular ramps and arms and we shoudl have a nice little comparison.


PS - I've spent over 10 pages arguing clutching with OT. Believe me guys, you're wasting your breathe.

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

yeah, im done with arguing with him, i think i might do that little science experiment with you, looks like a pretty cool little project, and i always like to tear the sled apart, so we should be good on that one.

 

[YamaDoo PolCat]

Not everyone is as smart as us, or at least if we are dumb have lots of experience to guide us.

OT does have a use though. He isn't smart and doesn't remember his experience, so in that regard he does represent at least half the people out there. With OT posting on here at least we can get all the questions from that half of the population raised by one fellow. So it is important to remember OT is not alone.

I've met people that believe the spring is what pushes the primary together. You would swear they are kidding, until they open their mouth again.

 

[tollen77]

Not everyone is as smart as us, or at least if we are dumb have lots of experience to guide us.

OT does have a use though. He isn't smart and doesn't remember his experience, so in that regard he does represent at least half the people out there. With OT posting on here at least we can get all the questions from that half of the population raised by one fellow. So it is important to remember OT is not alone.

I've met people that believe the spring is what pushes the primary together. You would swear they are kidding, until they open their mouth again.

OUCH! I disagree with OT all the time but that's pretty cold YDPC. Try and keep the gloves above the belt, eh.


.

 

[tollen77]

OK, so yesterday I was writing post arguing that the Central Roller Arms would be a vast improvement over just running an arm with more tip weight and I ended up talking myself in a circle. Here’s the original post as I was going to write it:

basically the theory the guy lund on DOOTALK did, the factory doo 1000 arms are like 80 grams, while the 800 are 65, so he runs 800 arms with more pin weight and it works awsome.

you essentially only need so much force one the roller, so by moving the weight from close to the base of the arm all the way out, it still does the same amount of work. this way you have less overall mass having to move resulting in better shifting in and out reactions.

-----​

It's not quite the same thing though Ski-Dooin' it. Where the weight lies in relation to centerline is what matters. Imagine you're trying to spin as fast as you can with your arms out. The first time you try you have 5 lbs of bean bags in your pockets. Not too bad. The next time you're holding 5lb weights in your outstretched arms. Much more difficult.

The more centralized the mass the easier it is to create rotation - RPM's. The further out (ie: more tip weight) the more difficult it is to rotate. Now it probably sounds like I just said tip weight is bad... and these new arms are worse! They're not.
At least they shouldn't be. When you calculate the force an arm exerts on the ramp you calculate the force vector from the center of the arm's mass. In most arms the center of mass is about 1/2-3/4 of the way up the arm.

-----​

And then I stopped typing and realized extra tip weight might just have the same effect as more weight over all in reducing the ability of the motor to rotate… this didn’t seem right to me (and still doesn’t) but here I am.

Two Leavers

Stock Arm:

OxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxO
...................................|
...................................V

Central Roller Arm:

OxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxOxxxxxxxx
...................................|
...................................V


OK, bad drawings I know. Each arm swivels on the left and is pulled down by centri***al force at the ‘V’. The ‘O’ is the roller.


If both of these arms weigh exactly the same, is more force exerted at the stock arm roller or the central arm roller? Or is it exactly the same? I need an engineer to take a look at this as I haven’t touched force vectors since University.

 

[J&L Snowhawk]

ttt

OK, so yesterday I was writing post arguing that the Central Roller Arms would be a vast improvement over just running an arm with more tip weight and I ended up talking myself in a circle. Here’s the original post as I was going to write it:

-----​

It's not quite the same thing though Ski-Dooin' it. Where the weight lies in relation to centerline is what matters. Imagine you're trying to spin as fast as you can with your arms out. The first time you try you have 5 lbs of bean bags in your pockets. Not too bad. The next time you're holding 5lb weights in your outstretched arms. Much more difficult.

The more centralized the mass the easier it is to create rotation - RPM's. The further out (ie: more tip weight) the more difficult it is to rotate. Now it probably sounds like I just said tip weight is bad... and these new arms are worse! They're not.
At least they shouldn't be. When you calculate the force an arm exerts on the ramp you calculate the force vector from the center of the arm's mass. In most arms the center of mass is about 1/2-3/4 of the way up the arm.

-----​

And then I stopped typing and realized extra tip weight might just have the same effect as more weight over all in reducing the ability of the motor to rotate… this didn’t seem right to me (and still doesn’t) but here I am.

Two Leavers

Stock Arm:

OxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxO
...................................|
...................................V

Central Roller Arm:

OxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxOxxxxxxxx
...................................|
...................................V


OK, bad drawings I know. Each arm swivels on the left and is pulled down by centri***al force at the ‘V’. The ‘O’ is the roller.


If both of these arms weigh exactly the same, is more force exerted at the stock arm roller or the central arm roller? Or is it exactly the same? I need an engineer to take a look at this as I haven’t touched force vectors since University.

this is very good as I look at your drawing I think of it like a nut cracker or sissors. the closer to the pivot point the more pressure there will be with equal force applied. that is how I understand it

 

[tollen77]

this is very good as I look at your drawing I think of it like a nut cracker or sissors. the closer to the pivot point the more pressure there will be with equal force applied. that is how I understand it

Perfect analogy Snohawk... Thanks!


Now how about how tip weight affects the engine's ability to accelerate (ie: holding your arms out and trying to spin)????

 

[baD-MAX]

Snowrdr, I wasn't bashing you. Maybe to clarify: The ramp looks flat like a straight helix looks flat. Not saying it is not steep like maybe a 54 deg. helix.

I think with more tip wt. the motor may rev a little slower. You may lose some of the quick response in and out of the throttle. Hard to tell, because you may not have to run as much wt. if the arm is pushing harder.

 

[Original Tetonice]

Heres aliitle something for some of you Hens to chew on.....

Effects Of The Drive Pulley Spring...Quotes from Skidoo Race Manual section 5page 8.

As the clutch shifts out to higher ratios, the drive spring balances the shift force generated by the levers and ramps. The spring tension will effect the entire shifting sequence of the engine pulley. The effect the spring has will depend upon the construction of the spring.

When the engine pulley is in its highest ratio position the spring will be compressed. The pressure the spring applies will determine the RPM required to reach higher gear ratios.

Bottom line folks the primary spring sqweezes the belt.

OT