There is "risk" and than there is "putting a revolver to your head". How many shots will it take ?....Remember the movie Deer Hunter when Danny was playing Russian Roulette with a 6 shooter and lost.....
Moa !!!!!
OT
If you wear an "ABS Bag" or "Similar" aren't you part of the problem ?
- Thread starter Original Tetonice
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There is "risk" and than there is "putting a revolver to your head". How many shots will it take ?....Remember the movie Deer Hunter when Danny was playing Russian Roulette with a 6 shooter and lost.....
Moa !!!!!
OT
S
Slick
Well-known member
Certainly easy to figure out why your breath smells that way. hehehehe.
Post like these are gay!
Protect your self and if the next guy is to ignorant to do the same let him be!
If my bag doesn't work and I'm in the wrong spot at the wrong time at least my family can say that I had all the latest and greatest gear and was as safe as I could be!
Ride on!
KJP
Protect your self and if the next guy is to ignorant to do the same let him be!
If my bag doesn't work and I'm in the wrong spot at the wrong time at least my family can say that I had all the latest and greatest gear and was as safe as I could be!
Ride on!
KJP
OT...why does scott toilet paper not make womans breasts bigger if she rubs it between them when scott toilet paper seems to enlarge their butts so much over time.???
and OT..stop brushing your teeth with preperation H....you would be in alot better mood
Careful on the toilet paper it been helping the littlebittytittycommity out for years.
OT
well slick...im lonely now thats fer certain...i had a dozen St. Bernards as pets and as well trained up fer avalance rescue,you know..like the Swiss/Finnish/Norwegians etc...but now l have ta agree with OT...and i know he has enlightened everyone in his irresistable and charming and charismatic manner to stay away from the outback...so i didn;t want to feed my friends fer nothing...so i shot them...so yea slick..im lonely...but i got one hell of a lot of spaggetti sauce made up...drop by some time and CHOW DOWN..
ps..yer invited too OT..
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i think this really hit the nail on the head, no for most people its just another tool to protect themselves.
as far as OT, yeah, sorta pointless thread, but there are a lot of people who think that with an ABS pack they can go anywhere, like people who still think there piped 800 will climb out of a slide, even the biggest baddest turbos cant do that.
i think it all comes down to common sense, two years ago people were going along the trail next to a small lake, the hill on the OTHER side of the lake broke loose, massive slide and it forced all the ice of crushing them, what this showed me is that no matter how careful you are, accidents still happen. sorta like sex, the only truely safe way is not at all.
ride smart, ride again.
Riding the backcountry should be like having safe sex......If you don't know who your riding between the sheets you might find yourself in trouble as well.
OT
OT
Fixed^
Aparintly he hasn't watched "a dozen more turns". Even skiers, cross country, and snow shoers can cause avies too. I think that anyone should have a abs if in the backcountry no matter what they're doing.
Risk-vs-revolver
This is where things get very blurry...........
Risk is not easily defined when talking about avalanche terrain. Either is revolver.
There are so many variables to both scenarios.........
I have seen slides happen on low slopes on low risk days. If a rider happened to get caught in this scenario and died, people would be quick to say that he might as well had a gun to his head.
I think that most ride unknowingly, in a combination of "risk/revolver" and get away with it for probably their whole lifetime. The next guy up the hill might get caught in an avy and not be so lucky.
Having said this, I think you can define the far ends of the spectrum.
Low/no risk: Meadows, small slopes under 20 degrees
Revolver: Hills over 25 degrees, riding in known avy runout spots, wind loaded slopes, high danger warnings, heavy snow preceeding riding on steep slopes, etc.
I think most of us ride somewhere in the middle at times, where you get lucky or the gun goes off.
This is so tough because the risk/revolver overlaps soooo much.
I tend to ride in the low/no risk end of the spectrum, and dabble higher up on the "risk" scale to get to play areas.
It is that "dabbling" that could get me into trouble I suppose.
Not true, the studies show that there is no marginal increase in either instance. Here is an excerpt from one book.
"When it became clear in 1997 that airbags were killing short ladies, a number of short ladies told me "When I discovered that my airbag could kill me, I started to drive more cautiously." If one accepts this statement, it is hard to dispute the corresponding conclusion that a belief that airbags dramatically reduce risk must lead to less cautious driving. For decades the public was exposed to images suggesting that airbags provided near total protection in crashes. Thousands of slow motion deployments were shown on television, conveying an impression that the occupant moved forward towards a gentle caress by a soft cushion. If knowledge of bullets came only through slow motion pictures, one might conclude that all one had to do to avoid being hit was to step leisurely away from the bullet's path when you observed it approaching you. In the bullet and airbag cases, the slow motion pictures conceal the near instantaneous nature, noise, and violence of the event.
If beliefs about airbags led to an undetectable 3% increase in average speed, an initial 100 potentially fatal crashes would increase to 113 (based on the 4th power relationship discussed in Chapter 9). The 10% effectiveness of the airbag would prevent 11 of these, leaving 102 fatalities, an increase of 2 over the original 100. Thus, instead of reducing fatalities by 10%, the airbag would increase fatalities by 2%. In Chapter 11 we addressed the possibility that belt-wearing could lead to behavior changes, and mentioned a test-track experiment suggesting that the same drivers increased speed by about 1% when belted compared to when unbelted. Behavior changes associated with airbags are expected to be larger than those associated with belt-wearing, so a 3% effect is plausible. A 3% increase in speed would reduce the fatality reductions from universal belt wearing from 42% to 35%, an important reduction, but not one that would have crucial policy implications. Because of the lower effectiveness of the airbag, a 3% increase in speed turns a fatality decrease into a fatality increase.
All estimates of lives saved by airbags assume that there are no behavior changes associated with airbags. Logically, such an assumption cannot be exactly true. Empirically, there have been no measured speed increases associated with airbags, and given the difficulties of such measurements, there are unlikely to be. However, the information available makes it very likely that moderately higher risk-taking is associated with the mistaken belief that airbags provide far more protection than they do. Behavior changes smaller than can be observed can cause airbags to increase the number of casualties even though they reduce the risk of injury in a crash. Estimates of lives saved by airbags all assume no behavior changes, and accordingly are more in the nature of logical upper limits rather than best estimates. It seems to me just as likely that airbags have increased fatalities as that they have decreased fatalities."
I realize where OT is coming from and have seen and heard guys do questionable things on the hill.
I think some of you guys are missing the bigger picture and OT does bring it to the table, albeit misguided in a very short post at the beginning of this thread IMO. Once instance of what he was talking about is illustrated when I asked another sledder one time why they don't dig snow pits. I received varying responses/excuses but overall the comments were that each slope is different, snow conditions change with aspect, etc, etc. However by not digging a pit, these riders are relying only on visual indicators and sounds which they may not hear while travelling on a sled. In essence, they are using their beacons, airbags, etc as their primary line of defence. These items are the last line of defence and not really much of a defence at all. A brain is the first line of defence.
Fair enough and playing devil's advocate here - its not really practical to dig a pit at the bottom of each and every slope and at every angle of slope, aspect etc, but at least digging one each time out gives a general sense of snow conditions etc. You can do all the right things and still be caught by a factor you didn't anticipate - to err is human. Sometimes it is our fatal flaw. Its all about decisions, and there are no second chances to make the same decision over. Each of us will live with the consequences of our actions, how long will depend on the severity of the consequences.
Biggest thing out there is to use your heads, if an airbag makes you feel safer and won't change your riding habits, then you are better off having it IMO.
If having one is going to make you think you are invincible or lull you into a false sense of security, then you have to agree with OT.
I've lost 2 friends to avy's. So this is my unbiased opinion. Ride safe everyone.
OH HAI... I'll just leave this here.
"A brain is the first line of defense"
No Second Chances posted that a "brain is the first line of defense."
I couldn't agree with that more. In much of the formal mountaineering training available, students will hear instructors with vast world-wide experience in alpine terrain use the phrase "bag of tricks." The implication is that the student should always have brain engaged, and be evaluating his/her environment, and employ any and all tricks (learned skills of the craft) to continue movement in, on, toward, up and down the terrain features relative to the objective. Skills and tools. And a decision-making process are all required, all of the time. As for myself, I have always been and remain - the student. At 48 years of age, I guess I'm able to continue to learn from my mistakes because I've managed to remain engaged in the tasks at hand, and as for navigation and route finding - which can be daunting on foot or ski, the sledding experience goes contrary to that slow motion evaluation opportunity that a mountaineer can afford to do en route. In other words, the sledder OUGHT to be an avid avalanche terrain evaluator, rather than a "snowpack dunce." That might not set well with some sledders' habits, but if you're a mountain sledder, and you ever want to be an old mountain sledder - the sooner that idea gets embraced, the better your chances are of achieving that goal. Dead is dead - and nothing is as final as the dark green vinyl.
x2 for the observation Nosecondchances posted.
Link below to my post in Avy Awareness forum, with fairly illustrative image of hill thumping sans cranial engagement. For what it may be worth.
http://snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1133106#post1133106
Stovebolt
Team Ruptured Buzzard
Victor, Idaho
No Second Chances posted that a "brain is the first line of defense."
I couldn't agree with that more. In much of the formal mountaineering training available, students will hear instructors with vast world-wide experience in alpine terrain use the phrase "bag of tricks." The implication is that the student should always have brain engaged, and be evaluating his/her environment, and employ any and all tricks (learned skills of the craft) to continue movement in, on, toward, up and down the terrain features relative to the objective. Skills and tools. And a decision-making process are all required, all of the time. As for myself, I have always been and remain - the student. At 48 years of age, I guess I'm able to continue to learn from my mistakes because I've managed to remain engaged in the tasks at hand, and as for navigation and route finding - which can be daunting on foot or ski, the sledding experience goes contrary to that slow motion evaluation opportunity that a mountaineer can afford to do en route. In other words, the sledder OUGHT to be an avid avalanche terrain evaluator, rather than a "snowpack dunce." That might not set well with some sledders' habits, but if you're a mountain sledder, and you ever want to be an old mountain sledder - the sooner that idea gets embraced, the better your chances are of achieving that goal. Dead is dead - and nothing is as final as the dark green vinyl.
x2 for the observation Nosecondchances posted.
Link below to my post in Avy Awareness forum, with fairly illustrative image of hill thumping sans cranial engagement. For what it may be worth.
http://snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1133106#post1133106
Stovebolt
Team Ruptured Buzzard
Victor, Idaho
Having the knowledge of knowing the correct route while in the backcountry is at the top of the "bag of tricks". Knowing the correct route and the surrounding can only comes from ride the same area or areas for years. Often riders find them self in unfamiliar turf and the lack of knowledge or history of the new turf can get a rider(s) into trouble.
The great thing about the backcountry is there is millions of miles of great routes to choose from. Sticking to the route without straying off is the hard part for some or when riding with big groups.
OT
F
fassteddie
Well-known member
o.t go back to telling everybody how to clutch sleds. oh maybe not a good idea because if clutched properly we could get to places we shouldnt be therefore (starting avy's)
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