If you wear an "ABS Bag" or "Similar" aren't you part of the problem ?

[Uller]

Post like these are gay!

Protect your self and if the next guy is to ignorant to do the same let him be!

If my bag doesn't work and I'm in the wrong spot at the wrong time at least my family can say that I had all the latest and greatest gear and was as safe as I could be!

Ride on!
KJP

Aparintly he hasn't watched "a dozen more turns". Even skiers, cross country, and snow shoers can cause avies too. I think that anyone should have a abs if in the backcountry no matter what they're doing.

I really don't want to be mean and/or pick on you two but......

You two are the exact people that OT's statements have been directed towards. Neither of you even have a clue based on your comments and really shouldn't be out in the mountains during winter without much more knowledge. As just recently stated the ONLY thing that can save your azz is your brain. Your knowledge of snow properties, current snopack conditions, weather, typical avy causes, and on and on and on and on.

"If your bag doesn't work" - You shouldn't need a bag cause you shouldn't have been there in the first place cause your "knowledge" of avys and "caution" shouldn't have allowed you to be there. If you don't have that "knowledge" or "caution" you shouldn't be riding in the backcountry (BC)period.

"Protect your self and if the next guy is to ignorant to do the same let him be!" - Problem is is that that is the guy that will highmark above you while you are stuck, overload the slope and release a big one on you while you are sitting there helpless.

BC skiers used to give the snowboarders a bunch of chit cause they were riding in the BC without the knowledge. I can tell you from experience that there are a TON more sledders riding in the BC without the knowledge than there snowboarders. The snowboarders still ride but it is in bounds and in controlled conditions. For those in the know that is similar to riding on trails in the flat lands.

"I think that anyone should have a abs if in the backcountry no matter what they're doing." - You have shown a lack of knowledge with this statement. For years and years people have been playing in the BC without an ABS pack. They are still around not because of the pack but because they made wise decisions on when they went out, where they went, and how they conducted themselves while they were out there. The basic premise from "a dozen more turns" is that rather experienced BC travelers didn't listen to their "knowledge", made a bad decision, and paid the consequences (with their life).

 

[brahm]

eh..i guess I'll weigh in...

You can have all the education, experience, and foresight..and things can still go wrong.. Be it your fault, other's (humans) or something unrelated. We all make mistakes, misjudgments, ect nobody is infallible...and that's what the protective gear is for. To attempt to mitigate risk in the event that you do make a bad call, or something out of your control happens. Is it a substitute for digging holes, checking snow pack, checking avy danger ratings, knowing if a slope is more prone to slide depending on the time of year and direction , ect ect.. no.. but even if you are 100% certain things can still go wrong. Who hasn't let adrenaline, and momentum get the best of them, been put in a bad situation by others, or simply just made an err in judgment?

With that said the OP (original poster) is still a troll, posting only to inflame emotions and in a tasteless manner drags to light his own personal tragedies as away to illicit response and bring out the worst in people. While I do agree it's an important topic to discuss and be aware of, this thread will do nobody any good as most will read it and scuaf it off as another troll thread posted by an irate irrational poster. Everyday we take on risks we that can be avoided in the name of convenience, or fun. Be it for necessity or for pleasure it's all the same we knew the risks when we stepped out of bed. There is no avoiding it... ...it's just a part of life accept or surrender to agraphobia. So you can either avoid life, or prepare yourself the best you can to deal with it..be it education via knowledge and behavior adjustment and/or understanding and reliance on technology.

 

[Stovebolt]

Get the avy info - manage your own risks

O.T wrote,

"Having the knowledge of knowing the correct route while in the backcountry is at the top of the "bag of tricks". Knowing the correct route and the surrounding can only comes from ride the same area or areas for years. Often riders find them self in unfamiliar turf and the lack of knowledge or history of the new turf can get a rider(s) into trouble."

I agree that knowing the history of particular slopes and other relevant information concerning a geographical area are important. I disagree that riding a particular area "for years and years" for example, is the only, or necessarily the best way, to acquire it. I'm not saying O.T. is wrong, I'm just voicing my opinion.

There are 2 general types of risks, if you care to look at it this way, and they are

1) Objective Risk

and

2) Subjective Risk

Objective risks are those inherent in any undertaking - for example, skiing, climbing, skydiving, cross-country refrigerator moving, indoor air racing, snowmobiling - whatever. Define OBJECTIVE risk by the simple rule that it is any and all risk associated with the endeavor that you as a participant have NO personal control over.

For example, there are hazards on the rock route like rockfall, lightning, bad weather, and so on and so forth. You cannot directly control these events. You can however mitigate the factors. You can decide to move to another route with less of any of these hazards, for one thing. Or not. You may decide you are willing to accept certain risks, and expose yourself to them.

Subjective risks are any and all risks associated with the endeavor that you DO HAVE DIRECTLY PERSONAL CONTROL OVER. They are also risks, they are inherent in the endeavor, they vary just like objective risks and they also can be mitigated. For example, you can select a climbing route that might minimize exposure to rockfall from above, and also decide to climb and expose yourself to the hazard at a particular time of Day/Month/Year/Storm Patter etc., that again would minimize that particular risk. And again, it is mitigation - not elimination - of risk. Exposure to risk is what it is. It is something that some people consciously work with, and succeed in mitigation, and some do not.

Working on a sport project, be it a sky dive record, a competitive shooting match, a big chute to climb on a mountain sled carries with it risks, whther the participant realizes all of them (objectively or subjectively) or not. Managing those risks is as much an art as it is based on the science at hand, and an act much like orchestrating a concert. The intelligent participant uses all resources at hand, all of the time in order to prevent the occurrence when and where he finds himself with six pounds of **** in a five pound bag. An emotionally sound individual will also maintain a grip on those subjective factors and make decisions he will have to live with - your mileage always varies, and hindsight is 20/20.

I no longer volunteer in community service, but respect all those who do. I spent 9 years in community service as a SAR member in 3 states, both volunteer and professionally, as a Park Ranger and sworn officer when I also served as the Department's SAR Coordinator, and as a medic, high angle rescue team member, navigator/radio operator on a canine unit and as a field training coordinator in New York and in Colorado. Like I said, I don't participate any longer, but I sleep at night knowing I did a small share. With that background I have offered my opinion and find myself in agreement with all posters who say they believe that it takes more than gear to keep you safe, and that they believe in using all gear available and at hand and in training to use it properly. It all goes hand-in-hand. It doesn't mean "stay home" and it doesn't mean rely on equipment or other people to rescue you. Self rescue is a continuation of preplanning for your endeavor, no matter what that may be. Acceptance of the potential consequences of all the risks, predictable and planned for, as well as some kind of margin for the "unknown" is what I personally, religiously, believe is every persons' responsibility. Help is fantastic - but on a moral level - at the beginning, middle and end of each day - I believe a person is responsible for his or her actions or inactions. We all know from daily life, that we are not always held accountable for accepting or not accepting these responsibilities - but that is a philosophical matter. The philosophy of every individual rider though, comes into play every day, with every rider. And it affects each one of us. Sometimes it affects us as a result of learning on a good day, and sometimes learning on a bad day. And sometimes some of us never come home. Facts of life. Some things to think about. I think about them.

I haven't zipped many body bags related to avalanche fatalities, only 2 - and that is a small number. But that is 2 more than I enjoyed doing. I won't pontificate on what "people need to do" - I believe that everybody makes their own decisions. I hope younger people and newer mountain riders will avail themselves of every opportunity to view their sport in light of things in the discussions, and I wish all of them well. And good fortune, good sledding, good times. Always.

Stovey

 

[cornicejumper]

Saftey equipment doesn't causes accidents. It's those that make the purchase of saftey who conclude that with the purchase of saftey gear they are now some how safer. And because they feel safer they display there reckless habits all across the slopes of the backcountry.


Knock, Knock humans cause avalanches......Do humans cause earthquakes, lightning,tornados & tsnuami's ? Do you wear a life jacket in the bath tub ?

Mark my words when the next big snow storm hits some one will be killed in a avalanche they created.

OT

Hell ya i wear a lifejacket in the bathtub! Along with a scuba mask and air tank just in case the lifejacket fails. aint gonna catch me drowned in the tub

 

[m8magicandmystery]

is gag reflex like an abs bag..she shouldn;t be there in the first place..???..now i know what ya been telling us OT...

 

[High Velocity]

Stovebolt, your's is the best response I've read in this whole thread. Nobody could have stated it better !! Thanks.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

well said stovebolt

Enough flaming and name calling. You never know what can happen and never will. Any one who sleds should get all the training aids possible so their risk is minimized. Safety gear only comes into play when you have ****ed up. Educate yourselves, the avi forecasts are for general regions and every hill can have it's own snowpack conditions that differ from those around it. Do your own due diligence, test every time your climbing angles change and do not solely rely on avi forecasts. These guys are doing all they can but, they can not be everywhere at all times so get an education.

Maybe OT wants every one to take an IQ test before they are allowed to purchase a sled. However I shall not digress. OT I think you should find a more positive way to articulate your beliefs [catch more with honey}.

Do not let this forum cloud your judgment people, ABS bags are a great addition to what should be a full arsenal of safety devices in your pack. Not on your sled, is your sled gonna dig ur azz out? After fernie the best lesson is let your buddy dig himself out. RIP Boys.

Education is the key, get some and you may live to be old, wise and hopefully prosper. Not trying to be a safety squirrel but the topic keeps coming up. Peace ride safe and get huge turns. Grizz out.

 

[Freak]

OT nice work man, you sure know how to stir it.

 

[snowmobiler]

" this thread will do nobody any good "
disagree with that one.the catch more with honey thread,(elevated avy danger in the west) gets 190 views.this one has allmost 6000 and is packed full of good posts.

 

[Stovebolt]

There is much informaton and agreement among us all

Wow, High Velocity..........

What a compliment for me to choke down, thank you. There is nothing like a good word from your peer. My opinion is no better than yours though, or the next guys'. And even though I probably wouldn't agree with O.T. on all aspects of this subject or perhaps other subjects, I appreciate his posting and especially this thread.

In fact, as has been said by others like Nosecondchances, Brahm, Grizly Adams and others, to paraphrase; "...you can't sled on your gear." "You've got to sled with your head."

So, O.T., if I read you correctly, my take-away message from you on the original idea of your posting this thread is: "one ought not to sled on the gear", that is, rely on equipment to save the day and henceforth provide some serious emotional guidance when employing our subjective risk mitigation decision making. I didn't say that's what you SAID - I'm saying that this is the take-home message I am actually getting from reading through all these posts, and crediting YOU for having that notion, even though you did not articulate it exactly this way. I stand for your correction(s).

I will say that I agree with that notion, whether that is one of O.T.'s intended messages or not. Further, I agree with everybody else who feels like tools are tools, and as long as they are not a distraction, the more the merrier. Tools in their proper context are the way to go. A shovel for shoveling, not hitting your sister in the face with, right? A beacon for being found and for use to find somebody else, whether they are in your original party or not. (My shovel doesn't make my decisions for me, it's just a handy tool - I use them a lot.) An ABS bag doesn't make any decisions for me either - I'm in charge of that. Having one on my back and having trained with it, it becomes a tool with a purpose. If every tool I owned became a ticket to my disaster simply on the basis of the extensions of my capabilities due to my possession of them - I'd have been baked long ago! I'd have been burned, shot, stabbed and crashed by 4WD, motorcycle, sled and mountain bike. Not to mention scarred or even killed by all those kitchen utensils.

No, I am in control of how I use my tools, and have never even been tempted to over-use any of them, just because "they were there." But I understand the sentiment expressed, and that some people DO have that temptation, and also some succumb to it. I really get that, I just don't dig it. So I'd never presume that somebody is a problem for owning an AR15, or an avy bag. But I watch people fairly conscientiously anyhow, because people are watch-worthy creatures. If you started misbehaving with an avy bag, I wouldn't ride with you. Period. If you misbehaved with an AR15, I might stop you on the spot, depending on the circumstances. I just wouldn't presume that because you had any of these tools, that you were an idiot or a monster, though we all know that monstrous, idiotic tool users exist.

I'll go make some more coffee, and pray not to put my eye out in the process! (Actually, I almost lost an eye one day, by "misusing" a German Shepard. Or was he misusing me - I couldn't say......it was dark out.)

Stovebolt
Team Ruptured Buzzard

Stovebolt, your's is the best response I've read in this whole thread. Nobody could have stated it better !! Thanks.

 

[Original Tetonice]

For the last 8 years or so, i've been posting these types of messages on SW with little or no TLC.......I believe that every time my "BLC" on this topic is posted my mission has been accomplished with the hope that if my message can reach 1 snowmobiler than the objective is working...And the hits on the thread are the proof that it still works after 8 years. Talking about the avy subject and cheating death works no matter how its done. This topic posted in the middle of summer would be useless.

Everyone has a differant view of the backcountry, for me and my crew its all about riding the safest route possible and making it back to the truck 100% of the time. Have the correct saftey tools along not so much so you can save yourself but perhaps save another in the evnt something were to occure.

Lets face it folks in a big Avy your beacon has a less than 50 % chance of recovery in a "huge avy" that your buried under 6, 8 or 10 feet plus. "Blunt Force Trama" probably already killed you anyway...By the way, you can't dig yourself out with that tiny shovel and your probe pole is useless as well when your either dead or barely breathing packed in tight under the snow. Can a Avy Bag survive a big avalanche with lots of debrie and tons of snow ? Video Please.... if it could happen the manufactures of such bags would have "demo days" where you would go to the top of a huge bowl stand in a known start zone of the bowl as a 200 foot wide avy is started so you can test ride the "stay afloat ability" as you roar down 1000 feet of slope ? Does the bag navigate around trees as well ?? Video Pleas.....As for your expensive tools in your backpack when your buried you better hope those in your party brought along a mini-excavator. Because those tiny shovels I/We pack along can not dig you out fast enough.

Bottom line is your better off looking at your beacon, shovel and probe pole as possibly helping others. And you better make sure your riding buddies have theres and know how to use it. And use it well and organized as a riding group in the event of an avalanche. Time is not on your side and often times your group is dealing with the Trama of the Avy and what to do, what to do what do to, where do we start looking, where do we start looking where do we start looking sinks in real fast wasting valuable time.

Best trick in your bag...Stay off slopes that will slide, follow daily avalanche reports, stay on safe riding routes. If the avy report says moderate to high there is no need to dig a snow pit the danger is moderate to high snow... The "daily avy report" is your best friend what more do you need ?.. Your brain is your best snowpit, beacon, avybag, shovel and probe.

Brutal Love & Care,

OT

 

[Original Tetonice]

eh..i guess I'll weigh in...

You can have all the education, experience, and foresight..and things can still go wrong.. Be it your fault, other's (humans) or something unrelated. We all make mistakes, misjudgments, ect nobody is infallible...and that's what the protective gear is for. To attempt to mitigate risk in the event that you do make a bad call, or something out of your control happens. Is it a substitute for digging holes, checking snow pack, checking avy danger ratings, knowing if a slope is more prone to slide depending on the time of year and direction , ect ect.. no.. but even if you are 100% certain things can still go wrong. Who hasn't let adrenaline, and momentum get the best of them, been put in a bad situation by others, or simply just made an err in judgment?

With that said the OP (original poster) is still a troll, posting only to inflame emotions and in a tasteless manner drags to light his own personal tragedies as away to illicit response and bring out the worst in people. While I do agree it's an important topic to discuss and be aware of, this thread will do nobody any good as most will read it and scuaf it off as another troll thread posted by an irate irrational poster. Everyday we take on risks we that can be avoided in the name of convenience, or fun. Be it for necessity or for pleasure it's all the same we knew the risks when we stepped out of bed. There is no avoiding it... ...it's just a part of life accept or surrender to agraphobia. So you can either avoid life, or prepare yourself the best you can to deal with it..be it education via knowledge and behavior adjustment and/or understanding and reliance on technology.

Dude when is the last time or times you dug a snow pit ? Do you dig them all day and at all elevations you ride at as well ? And since when has owning all the "protective gear" become justification for "misjudgement" or as you also state "mitigate risk in the event you do make a bad call". Its bad enough you snowmobile with that attitude do you hunt with that attitude as well ?

As has been stated folks wear the gear for all the wrong reasons. Your statment is a prime example of just that.

OT

 

[Original Tetonice]

Brahms, you need to be honest with your riding buddies and let them know you might be prone to mis-judgements and bad calls which is why you wear the protective gear...That way your riding buddies can have a chance to stay home rather than there being a chance of risk to them while your out riding.


OT

 

[brahm]

Dude when is the last time or times you dug a snow pit ? OT

This past weekend, when I was shooting skiers in the bc.

Do you dig them all day and at all elevations you ride at as well ?

Yes, I dug several, even though we were on a south facing exposure, that had already slid since the last storm, the danger rating on http://www.esavalanche.org/ was low and everybody I was with had beacons, shovels, probes & expereince with them. Yes I still dug pits. Something about sitting in a self dug shelf on a steep slope, in the bc with 60lbs of camera gear and being very immobile makes you want to make sure your not going to find yourself buried, or running down the mtn to find your friends and dig them out

And since when has owning all the "protective gear" become justification for "misjudgement" or as you also state "mitigate risk in the event you do make a bad call". Its bad enough you snowmobile with that attitude do you hunt with that attitude as well ?

As has been stated folks wear the gear for all the wrong reasons. Your statment is a prime example of just that.

You grossly misunderstood me, or you glossed over what I wrote and came to your own conclusions in an effort to suck me into a debate w/you. So I will not respond to this, I believe others clearly understand my point.

with that attitude do you hunt with that attitude as well ?

I have yet to have the oppertunity to hunt. Unless you count fishing.

 

[brahm]

Brahms, you need to be honest with your riding buddies and let them know you might be prone to mis-judgements and bad calls which is why you wear the protective gear...That way your riding buddies can have a chance to stay home rather than there being a chance of risk to them while your out riding.


OT

All humans are prone to err, and everybody I ride with is well of aware of how I ride, and I've got a pretty good idea of how everybody I ride with, rides. The few people whom I've just started riding with, we spend our times in meadows, the trees, small hills, and boon docking...granted it I'm also riding a 136" right now until I get my 151 back together so I haven't done any "climbs" this season. Only potential avy zones I've been in have been this season are boot packing w/my camera gear.

Can you say the same? Instead of asking questions why not tell us of your riding practices?

Oh, and I've made no efforts to conceal any mishaps I've had in the past (ie snapping my leg last jan).

Thanks for looking out for me though!

 

[Original Tetonice]

brahm, Here is a mis-judgement or bad call test for you.....Were in the mountains around Mammoth Lakes and we have 20 possible hills to climb and play on. All the hills are 33 degrees or greater and it just snowed 2 feet overnight on all 20 slopes the group is thinking about playing on.

1. Are all 20 slopes safe to play on ?

2. Are all 20 slopes unsafe to play on ?



By the way next time your in western wyoming let me know i will show you how i practice what i preach.

OT

 

[Stovebolt]

Brutal Love and Care

O.T.

After 8 years of posting here and having your point of view and particular way of expressing them, it would seem as though you are a man of conviction. I applaud that in any man or woman; conviction and commitment. These are among the many qualities of people I admire.

I can't say I agree with your points and conclusions, or even the self-described "brutality" of the delivery, but I respect your opinion no less than I would anybody else's. I do respect the way other people address each other more though, and I place a higher value on both their points and in their deportment because of it. We've never met, and maybe we will someday. Hell, it sounds like we ride only miles apart on occasion, maybe you get to Togwotee now and again? But we don't have to agree. We're not curing cancer here - it's a forum. A forum is for discussion and trade of information, ideas and fellowship. It's a good thing, and a good "place" to be. And we're spending money and resources at our leisure, burning gas and buying parts and bench racing. I hope my tone with all the people on this forum will always reflect my understanding of this context.

It sounds like you have a system that has been working for you, and I think that's great. I wish you......


...safe journeys.

Stovebolt
*******************************************************
COMMITTMENT
"Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back, always ineffectiveness. Concerning all acts of initiative and creation, there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have occurred. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance which no man could have dreamed would have come his way. Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now." - Johann Wolfgang Goethe -
********************************************************
Goethe wrote Faust, by the way - remember? The story about a man who made a deal with the Devil? Anyway, I like the quote from him, and I posted it on one of my websites for it's inspirational value to me. For me, I will remember to remain committed to being safe, not commit myself to a risk I shouldn't take - either out of ignorance or folly.

 

[Stovebolt]

Ouch! Walk it off, Brahm...........

Brahm wrote:

"Oh, and I've made no efforts to conceal any mishaps I've had in the past (ie snapping my leg last jan)."
***************************************
Saint Peter in a dump truck, Brahm! Nice photo, I'll bet that hurt like a badger in your boxers! Nice plate. Your calcaneus looks fine from here, but I suspect it was also a trimalleolar fracture from the look of it, in addition to the tib/fib, but I'm not a doctor and don't even play one on TV. I would have prescribed 1) no soccer for at least a week, 2) a Fat Tire Pale Ale while watching Hunt for Red October, and 3) a subscription renewal to Snowest.

(Told you I wasn't no stinking doctor.........)

With an injury like that one year ago, you are doing great to be out riding these quarter-ton waggly snow behemoths. Ride on Brahm........

plus 2 for having a cast iron set of badger-proof underwear.

Stovebolt

 

[brahm]

brahm, Here is a mis-judgement or bad call test for you.....Were in the mountains around Mammoth Lakes and we have 20 possible hills to climb and play on. All the hills are 33 degrees or greater and it just snowed 2 feet overnight on all 20 slopes the group is thinking about playing on.

1. Are all 20 slopes safe to play on ?

2. Are all 20 slopes unsafe to play on ?



By the way next time your in western wyoming let me know i will show you how i practice what i preach.

OT

You didn't give me enough variables to make a proper assessment. What was the snowpack like before the new snow fell? What type of snow fell? Dry powder? Sierra Cement? What are the temps, what have the temps been like for the past weeks (ie did it dump then warm up to 50?) How windy was the storm ie what stuff is windpacked, When was the last snow fall, What do the areas around the slopes look like? Young trees? no trees? What's http://www.esavalanche.org/ say. What direction are the slopes facing? Do they get alot of sun exposure this time of year? ect ect ect...

Most likely, as does usually happen in this situation the avy rating would be moderate/considerable and I would pass and spend the day @ June mountain on my skii's in the trees, or playing around in crater flats doing pow turns or in the trees hoping off stumps, fallen logs and looking for little step up jumps

 

[Original Tetonice]

You didn't give me enough variables to make a proper assessment. What was the snowpack like before the new snow fell? What type of snow fell? Dry powder? Sierra Cement? What are the temps, what have the temps been like for the past weeks (ie did it dump then warm up to 50?) How windy was the storm ie what stuff is windpacked, When was the last snow fall, What do the areas around the slopes look like? Young trees? no trees? What's http://www.esavalanche.org/ say. What direction are the slopes facing? Do they get alot of sun exposure this time of year? ect ect ect...

You forgot to add your "crystal ball " and advice you received from your "rabbits foot"

OT