Heim Joint Failures on SKINZ Concept A-Arms

[summitboy]

Dude you should be getting paid if you aren't. You can believe what ever you want to but there are people on here with knowledge and experience in both the sledding world as well as other engineering applications so its perhaps the Opinions are not as uninformed as you may think. I understand the need to keep costs reasonable when you bring a product to market so maybe the rod ends are from the lowest bidder maybe they are not doesn't matter the fact is and I'll put my reputation on the line here The Ends Are Too Small, end of discussion. Have they factored in temperature, just wait till somebody is ripping accross a lake at -30 degrees with wind chill etc and the rod ends are cold and brittle, whole different game. I'm not slaggin Skinz here on the contrary I commend them on their response but fact is they have an issue that could injure or kill somebody and people need to be informed. I believe that Skinz will get it done but the solution isn't going to be a new supplier I'll put money on it, so in the mean time are you going to let your wife or son or daughter ride that product? Think about that before you come on here sayin its all rosy every one stand by no need to worry.

M5

Well said ! The consumers deserve to read this thread and see what is happening with this product. Its all fine and dandy that the dealers want to pull it because they think it is giving Skinz a negative view and may hurt future sales. Unfortunately that is the way it works. We as the consumer have the right to be informed.

If this was my machine i would send it back and expect a full refund. There is no way i would be waiting around for new parts after spending hard earned money and downtime to possibly have the same issue again. If you the dealer or mfg think that is reasonable then i can see why you are on here painting a nice little "everything is ok" picture.

As in any forum there will always be things you dont want to hear or disagree with but that is also the way it works. The reason Zbros got dragged in or a brand bash session occured is because i guess the author didnt want to wait for a Skinz response product wise and decided to go with the tried and tested Nytro front end. Smart decision in my book. Sorry. JMO

 

[ruffryder]

The time stamp on the forum can not be over-riden.
Every post that is made has to appear in the sequence of it's original creation.

So I can't create a new thread, and then pull all of the contents from this thread into it without causing the new post #1 to become the last post of the thread, thus K45 end's up owning the thread again.

Working on it.

http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=96351

you need to work on your google foo...

You know, I am kind of surprised snowhawkaddict hasn't found this thread... Something about a two-ski going to a one-ski....

 

[justinkredible56]

Did it shear off in the exact same spot? Did they both break clean at the end of the a-arm?

Yes it sheered clean off again on a low impact obstacle. This time it was the other side and it broke off leaving the jam nut in place on the a arm rather than with the actual heim joint like last time. Should be easier to remove this time. Drilling chromoly isn't fun, I went through 3 drill bits trying to get the last one out. My spindles are going to be ruined if this keeps happening from trying to limp my sled out. A arms seem to remain un-harmed. Reliability factor on my Yamaha is long gone but will hopefully return in the near future.

 

[MotoPsycho]

Dude you should be getting paid if you aren't. You can believe what ever you want to but there are people on here with knowledge and experience in both the sledding world as well as other engineering applications so its perhaps the Opinions are not as uninformed as you may think. I understand the need to keep costs reasonable when you bring a product to market so maybe the rod ends are from the lowest bidder maybe they are not doesn't matter the fact is and I'll put my reputation on the line here The Ends Are Too Small, end of discussion. Have they factored in temperature, just wait till somebody is ripping accross a lake at -30 degrees with wind chill etc and the rod ends are cold and brittle, whole different game. I'm not slaggin Skinz here on the contrary I commend them on their response but fact is they have an issue that could injure or kill somebody and people need to be informed. I believe that Skinz will get it done but the solution isn't going to be a new supplier I'll put money on it, so in the mean time are you going to let your wife or son or daughter ride that product? Think about that before you come on here sayin its all rosy every one stand by no need to worry.

M5

To again reitterate...

No one reading this thread knows which of the posted comments are fact from reliable sources with "knowledge and experience", or simply conjecture.

For insance, I'm sure those members that do possess such wisdom, would not pontificate the inherent dangers of "wind chill" affecting the strength of any inanimate object. It just isn't in the laws of physics.

Yes, my entire family rides these products, including my wife and 2 daughters... each of their own choice, and with knowledge of such.

Please do not elude that I do not "think" before I post... in the same hand, please don't misexpound my comments as a complacent blow off of the issue at hand - I expect rational minds will construe my posts somewhat differently.

Merry Christmas

 

[Trax 2 Treadz]

Trax 2 Treadz is a Canadian dealer for Skinz products. We have been working closely with Skinz Protective Gear to ensure that we are able to present accurate and factual information to the customers we have sold kits to. They will also be presented with options on how to move forward from here in addition to the new lower heim joints that will be sent to them.
It should also be noted we also have a vested interest in this as we currently have two "Black" Nytro's sitting in our garage waiting for enough snow to take them out for a ride.

 

[ruffryder]

For insance, I'm sure those members that do possess such wisdom, would not pontificate the inherent dangers of "wind chill" affecting the strength of any inanimate object. It just isn't in the laws of physics.

Based on what I have seen from M5-, it is possible he was talking about the seriousness of the situation in those weather conditions if the bearing were to break, rather than the effect of wind on the bearing.

As he pointed out, having this occur in the middle of a lake (probability is reasonable due to ice heaves..) with high winds that could be a much worse situation then being in the mountains where generally the risk to exposure would not be as great...

I guess it isn't really clear, but I think he knows better...

 

[Mister907]

i see this thread as helpful. i know ive learned my lesson on buying first time out products. sure, people are saying whatever they want about a product... isnt that the way it goes? there are plenty of threads around here that talk about crappy zbroz arms. i saw some of those pics, with tin foil looking arms, and at least the skinz you can fix without new arms. NOT saying i would feel any more secure riding it if it happened though. i fell 20 feet of a ledge in white out conditions one time, thought i was going over the mountain to die. threw myself off the machine, just to crash on top of it 10 feet later. i get that same exact feeling now when i ride white out in the mountains, SCARED S***LESS! i can understand how one would feel iffy after having this occurrence. i dont go into the mountains any more when it looks like it might get to be white out, but sometimes it sneaks in on me, and if i dont know the area im in, i get those thoughts, and it would really suck to not want to ride my nytro cuz of a bolt. i hope that no one gets hurt throughout the course of this, i hope it gets figured out, and i hope it gets done quickly. but i dont think that a few negative reviews about a product is going to kill the company. especially one with the reviews of other products this company has! im waiting to see how this pans out because after seeing the zbroz folded up, im still thinking about the skinz (looks cooler to, imo)all i know is that if i had it, and not installed my skinz kit yet, i would wait and see the out come. and if i had installed, it would be very hard not to go back to stock(or whatever else) before it was figured out.... but the same goes for the zbroz. gunna ride the 2012 arms on my 08 until the bushings give out. hope by then this will be figured out.

and as far as dealing with dealerships before manufacturer... it has been my experience that the dealer doesnt give two sh**s about you after the sale and warranty are done. i had 300 miles on my 08, running boards bent 1 1/2 inches where i stad. i weigh 142 lbs (no gear). service tech asked how high i was jumping my mtn machine and thats when i noticed. after having it out with the local yamaha shop, one of the salesmen (who had the same problem) gave me a number to the manufacturer and i tried that. the lady was rude and diddnt give me any kind of option. i was too nieve then and blew it off. now that my boards are to the point of saggy noodles because i have to jack it up every time i wanna ride,i wish i lived close to the yamaha manufacturer so i could put it through their office window. i know its not the dealerships fault, but i do think it seems like they may have called ahead and said "watch out for the call from this crazy mtx jumper". i dont know, i just wish some body would use a lil lube or at least spit on the tip before they screw me!

also, i saw the vid of the guy crash into the trees with his skinz front end. that was a hard hit, im sure he believes in that front end. but, from what these guys are saying they snapped theirs on some twiggy stuff riding the trails. im sure if it was a 1/4 stick that sheared your heim, rather than a 3" spruce that tweaked your a arm, you might feel a little skeptical. just sayin.

 

[MotoPsycho]

Based on what I have seen from M5-, it is possible he was talking about the seriousness of the situation in those weather conditions if the bearing were to break, rather than the effect of wind on the bearing.

As he pointed out, having this occur in the middle of a lake (probability is reasonable due to ice heaves..) with high winds that could be a much worse situation then being in the mountains where generally the risk to exposure would not be as great...

I guess it isn't really clear, but I think he knows better...

Thanks Ruff...

That is kind of the point I was trying to make.

In the nameless, faceless void that is the internet, comments are easily misconstrued due to a lack of full content.

Generally, human nature is to fill in the "blanks" with the worst thing you can think of. I'm just trying to keep speculation at bay.

OFT Racing, just like Trax 2 Treadz are dealing directly with Skinz, and facilitating their wishes. Please contact us with questions or concerns.

 

[summitboy]

OFT,

I'm curious what you think the speculation is here exactly ? Interesting how you picked apart M5's post. It must be nice to be able to live your life with a dedicated, unquestioning faith in others abilities.

My stance is the post should stay and people should be free to sift through the garbage and make their own opinion on purchasing a Skinz front end.

It will be a cold day in hell before my wife and kids ride on a Skinz Nytro front end !

Zbros is better !

 

[MotoPsycho]

****

OFT Racing
Over the Top parts
Authorized Dealer for: Skinz Protective Gear, Timbersled, ZBroz, Shockwave, Mountain Addiction, Hartman Inc., MoFlow, Roest Racing, ThistleDoo-Nuts, Yamaheater, Four Stroke Solutions LLC​

If ZBroz Yamaha arms were in question in this thread rater than Skinz, and they were dealing with the problem, I would stand behind them with the same voracity and support. We only sell what we believe in.​

​

 

[TRUEBLUEMAX]

I would be curious to see how many of these people that just have to put their .02 in actually have one of these front ends. I know I have been dealt with very well and informed of the steps being taken to resolve the issue. They know that their is an issue and they are not trying to cover anything up.

So summitboy I am curious have you ever owned a car that had a manufacturers recall on it? About every car has at least one on it. A manufacturers recall is only issued when there is an imminent danger present to the operator of the vehicle. Would you just dump the vehicle if that was the case or get it fixed? I think any reasonable individual would get the thing fixed and move on.

I don't think this situation is a whole lot different except for the fact that Skinz is taking care of this in a very quick fashion.

 

[Trax 2 Treadz]

i see this thread as helpful. i know ive learned my lesson on buying first time out products. sure, people are saying whatever they want about a product... isnt that the way it goes? there are plenty of threads around here that talk about crappy zbroz arms. i saw some of those pics, with tin foil looking arms, and at least the skinz you can fix without new arms. NOT saying i would feel any more secure riding it if it happened though. i fell 20 feet of a ledge in white out conditions one time, thought i was going over the mountain to die. threw myself off the machine, just to crash on top of it 10 feet later. i get that same exact feeling now when i ride white out in the mountains, SCARED S***LESS! i can understand how one would feel iffy after having this occurrence. i dont go into the mountains any more when it looks like it might get to be white out, but sometimes it sneaks in on me, and if i dont know the area im in, i get those thoughts, and it would really suck to not want to ride my nytro cuz of a bolt. i hope that no one gets hurt throughout the course of this, i hope it gets figured out, and i hope it gets done quickly. but i dont think that a few negative reviews about a product is going to kill the company. especially one with the reviews of other products this company has! im waiting to see how this pans out because after seeing the zbroz folded up, im still thinking about the skinz (looks cooler to, imo)all i know is that if i had it, and not installed my skinz kit yet, i would wait and see the out come. and if i had installed, it would be very hard not to go back to stock(or whatever else) before it was figured out.... but the same goes for the zbroz. gunna ride the 2012 arms on my 08 until the bushings give out. hope by then this will be figured out.

and as far as dealing with dealerships before manufacturer... it has been my experience that the dealer doesnt give two sh**s about you after the sale and warranty are done. i had 300 miles on my 08, running boards bent 1 1/2 inches where i stad. i weigh 142 lbs (no gear). service tech asked how high i was jumping my mtn machine and thats when i noticed. after having it out with the local yamaha shop, one of the salesmen (who had the same problem) gave me a number to the manufacturer and i tried that. the lady was rude and diddnt give me any kind of option. i was too nieve then and blew it off. now that my boards are to the point of saggy noodles because i have to jack it up every time i wanna ride,i wish i lived close to the yamaha manufacturer so i could put it through their office window. i know its not the dealerships fault, but i do think it seems like they may have called ahead and said "watch out for the call from this crazy mtx jumper". i dont know, i just wish some body would use a lil lube or at least spit on the tip before they screw me!

also, i saw the vid of the guy crash into the trees with his skinz front end. that was a hard hit, im sure he believes in that front end. but, from what these guys are saying they snapped theirs on some twiggy stuff riding the trails. im sure if it was a 1/4 stick that sheared your heim, rather than a 3" spruce that tweaked your a arm, you might feel a little skeptical. just sayin.

I am sorry Mister that that has been your experience but I have to say that Larry and I have bent over backwards for our customers. As far as these Heim joints are concerned we are contacting all of our customers that we have sold kits to BEFORE their is a problem with their machines and having them replaced. We are also going over their other options in terms of upgrades to the system as we have been directed by Skinz. The very last thing we want to see is some one hurt or worse out in the back country.

We and I am sure OFT does too just want accurate information getting out there to the customers and general public all the drama and what if's could go on forever and serve no purpose. Skinz is addressing the problem head on and have sourced out the new parts. They have just arrived yesterday and are being shipped out immediately.

There has also been some discussion about Skinz upping production by outsourcing it is worth noting that the parts that are failing are not manufactured by Skinz but in fact outsourced parts.

Just for further clarification I do ride a sled with one of these front ends on it and my Mom rides the other Project Black sled that has been imported into Canada.

Merry Christmas

Jan!

 

[summitboy]

Truebluemax, if i had a vehicle that had a catastrophic failure that had the potential to hurt someone i would sell it in a heartbeat, not ride around with my family in it. I commrnd Skinz for its response thus far, however now what ? People stop sledding and wait ? Bury the thread and pretend everything is ok ?

Like i said before i would order up a Zbros and send the Skinz back and demand my money back just as the author did. I would not sit around and waste half the season wondering when are the parts showing up, will it be strong, is this going to happen to me again, is it safe ?? Sorry not me !

Thats just my opinion, you dont have to try and sell me on the front end. The day i saw it i knew this was gonna happen. Our group talked about it at length. We have seen the heim joint issues in the last couple of years on some front ends that got built within our group. Just because we are not manufacturing this stuff for the mass market doesnt mean we dont have knowledge and experience. The consumer is smarter than you dealers/mfgs may believe. Thats why this forums exists !

 

[Mister907]

i do believe there are companies out there who stand behind their products. and it seems to me everything is being done that can be so far to fix the issue. this is not scaring me away from the seller at all, but it is very good info to see how well the company reacts. i understand the product was made by another source, and from what ive read here, that source has been discontinued.

as far as sending it back and demanding money from the start, i would try and hold back for the first few phone calls, and see how far that got me before goin nuts. im not sure how far and calmly the first guy took it. but i imagine he tried a few phone calls before posting in here...i dont know the exact timeline of events...but is it possible that by starting this he got the ball rolling a little bit faster on getting the response he wanted, and getting the company to get the info out there to people...possibly saving a lot of people from injury? somebody has to do it, right?

no, i do not have the a arms

yes, i am still considering buying them after the outcome of this, i havent seen(or truly looked for) a zbroz response to their front end deals.

 

[MTdream]

Here's what I think is going to happen but hey I've been wrong lots of times before. It will be determined that the 1/2" rod ends are too small and they will be upgraded to 5/8" which in fact is 56% larger, problem will be that the lower arms will also need to be rebuilt/replaced in order to accept the larger bore 5/8" end. I'm sorry but I don't believe for a second that it is a bad batch of rod ends, I mean think of the liability for the supplier company I am sure they are selling these things to a lot more companies than just Skinz.Bottom line, its a design flaw.

M5

bolded section(s) appears to be complete speculation, my clue, was the "I think" indicator....but then I might get labelled as reading something into it....however, I do agree 5/8" is bigger than 1/2" And your math of 56% is good...the key engineering principle, is matching joint and tube as close as possible from a strength perspective....I.e. it does you no good to have a bullet proof HIEM if the tube fails and vice versa...I have had the opposit happen on my Timbersled suspension approximately 6 times....but no HIEM failures....Either way, rider is limping sled out of the woods...

As to your point on the supplier company...I find it interesting you give the manufacturer of the part a complete pass, yet throw the person manufacturing the tube under the bus....But hey, just facts right??

....Zbros is way better engineered than the Skinz. Just put them side by side and you will see the difference. It always sucks to be the guy with the inferior product especially when you dish out hard earned cash for something that really isn't well tested. JMO

Hmm both bold comments seem like opinion, not fact...

As someone who did some of the test piloting on this front end....I can assure you it was hammered....with the same 1/2" not 5/8" HIEM...and shockingly no issues at all...

It is interesting also to me the hammering about "isn't well tested" I would venture to guess the reputation Skinz has for testing and delivering a proven product is second to none in the industry...most of us whine about every manufacturer of the sled manufacturers themselves for not delivering a "perfect" product....arctic is getting hammered right now for it (steering linkage, belt issues, etc.)..Polaris was getting hammered for years (engine failures, and cranks before, didn't they have to completely pull a whole line of sleds??) Yamaha for ridiculous track on gen and 2 nytros (besides ignoring the weight issues) ski doo for well being skidoo (but i seem to remember belt issues, and some clutching issues) etc. etc.

Fact is, we are all test pilots for the manufacturers, and for the after market companies....

And in the goal of full disclosure...I am good friends with the Family that owns Skinz, and they are VERY concerned about the impact of this on people, and have been doing everything in their power to resolve the issue...They were the original test pilots, and had their kids riding these....and with the extremely limited riding they get to do, they understand the preciousness of our time in the hills...

A little more facts, and a little less Bravo channel would make this forum a little more like it used to be....but then again, we back then were the test pilots for the forum, what did we know....I guess I am just the old guard, who prefers to actually discuss an issue and learn...while leaving the drama mostly to the "fouled plug" section....

 

[ruffryder]

As to your point on the supplier company...I find it interesting you give the manufacturer of the part a complete pass, yet throw the person manufacturing the tube under the bus...

I don't think he stated he gave the manufacturer a complete pass, just that he thought he thinks that it is undersized based on his experience. While you state he throws skins under the bus and gives a pass to the supplier, doesn't it seem like you are doing the opposite?

As someone who did some of the test piloting on this front end....I can assure you it was hammered....with the same 1/2" not 5/8" HIEM...and shockingly no issues at all...

It seems that based on the failures of a couple of people, it IS shocking and leads to two conclusions. Either the tie rod parts were manufactured bad, or the design is bad. As of right now, with no test report of the rod ends that broke and others from the same supplier, the "fact" is nobody knows for certain.

edited to stay on topic..

 

[MTdream]

I don't think he stated he gave the manufacturer a complete pass, just that he thought he thinks that it is undersized based on his experience. While you state he throws skins under the bus and gives a pass to the supplier, doesn't it seem like you are doing the opposite?

I love conversations where people don't read....


Show me a "complete pass" that I gave Skinz? Who for purposes of being completely forthright, I have in my reply disclosed, I am friends...

However, as I have done with numerous other vendors Timbersled, 509, Oft, Sled Solutions, etc.) stepped in to call out people who are going down a path of just bashing for bashing sake, which is usually not even the people who have had the issue...a quick read of the ProClimb section will show this level of hysteria...people freaking out who have not even gotten their sleds...which is the case here to...Ruffy, do you have this front end? Does M5, does SummitBoy? (Justin..., k45 et al. have every right to be frustrated about breaking something, as we all do, when crap breaks)

As I have stated, have seen first hand the product....as well as have more than put it through its paces....


It is also a very common tactic of competing companies to have "friends" troll and take every opportunity to bash competitors...heck we as Americans seem to be making it an art form to bash everyone who bothers to make a counter point good bad or indifferent then cry foul (when no foul was made) for those defending or offering counter points...

You know like claiming I gave a complete pass to Skinz (in the same quotation as having communicated there is an issue) however you are accurate in that he did not state "complete pass" however the conclusion from his premise did just that...

One last thing to keep in mind...all of these people have the option of installing their stock parts...which I carry mine in my trailer, as well as usually have spare a-arms upper and lower for big trips...since crap happens, and my sledding time is too important/valuable to me to wait a few days for FedEx or whatever...sadly, I generally don't make an early season trip without destroying parts (that is a reason Skinz in the past has had me test stuff, am a good crash test dummy)


Oh and for the record....


Merry Christmas!!!!

FWIW the folk at Skinz will be in the shop tomorrow all day making parts....ahhhh the joys of owning a small business in America...

 

[ruffryder]

Show me a "complete pass" that I gave Skinz?

I guess you haven't come right out and said it.. but it seems to be inferred from your post abouts all of the testing that you and skinz have done (meaning you think it was designed correctly and appropriately). Isn't this the case?

Oh, and I do not have the front end.. or anyone's front end. Though, next winter I will have something there.. maybe even a new yamaha one.
or maybe I will just build my own....

 

[Thistledoo]

bolded section(s) appears to be complete speculation, my clue, was the "I think" indicator....but then I might get labelled as reading something into it....however, I do agree 1/2" is bigger than 5/8" And your math of 56% is good...the key engineering principle, is matching joint and tube as close as possible from a strength perspective....I.e. it does you no good to have a bullet proof HIEM if the tube fails and vice versa...I have had the opposit happen on my Timbersled suspension approximately 6 times....but no HIEM failures....Either way, rider is limping sled out of the woods...

As to your point on the supplier company...I find it interesting you give the manufacturer of the part a complete pass, yet throw the person manufacturing the tube under the bus....But hey, just facts right??



Hmm both bold comments seem like opinion, not fact...

As someone who did some of the test piloting on this front end....I can assure you it was hammered....with the same 1/2" not 5/8" HIEM...and shockingly no issues at all...

It is interesting also to me the hammering about "isn't well tested" I would venture to guess the reputation Skinz has for testing and delivering a proven product is second to none in the industry...most of us whine about every manufacturer of the sled manufacturers themselves for not delivering a "perfect" product....arctic is getting hammered right now for it (steering linkage, belt issues, etc.)..Polaris was getting hammered for years (engine failures, and cranks before, didn't they have to completely pull a whole line of sleds??) Yamaha for ridiculous track on gen and 2 nytros (besides ignoring the weight issues) ski doo for well being skidoo (but i seem to remember belt issues, and some clutching issues) etc. etc.

Fact is, we are all test pilots for the manufacturers, and for the after market companies....

And in the goal of full disclosure...I am good friends with the Family that owns Skinz, and they are VERY concerned about the impact of this on people, and have been doing everything in their power to resolve the issue...They were the original test pilots, and had their kids riding these....and with the extremely limited riding they get to do, they understand the preciousness of our time in the hills...

A little more facts, and a little less Bravo channel would make this forum a little more like it used to be....but then again, we back then were the test pilots for the forum, what did we know....I guess I am just the old guard, who prefers to actually discuss an issue and learn...while leaving the drama mostly to the "fouled plug" section....

1/2 inch is smaller than 5/8....is what you meant right

It has to be an issue with the material as I know how big a 1/2 bolt is and what it can do. My sled has this front end on it with 60 miles logged so far and I was on the hammer....driving at very fast speeds because the sled handled so good I have read all this and know they will make it right....Gonna ride it next week for a couple days and well see what happens....I'm not worried.

 

[BigFish BC]

it would be nice if this post was left open for the basic members too chris.