DynoTech on the Poo 800-Some thoughts

[thefullmonte]

This was my reply to the other thread as well:

I suppose that's to ensure proper engine temp before max HP can be achieved. Thus preventing engine damage.
There are sure a lot of interesting thoughts coming from all this testing. Poor mapping, improper TPS adjustment, wrong coolant temp and now this.
I think Polaris should hire you guys.

It is very frustrating at least to myself that Polaris isn't more forthcoming with information concerning different questions many of us have. We are not allowed to talk to the actual engineers or anyone with tech knowledge. The dealers aren't told anything. And if the dealer contacts Polaris, they don't have a clue what they are trying to explain to the Polaris tech anyway.

So does this give more evidence to coolant temp? Should we be looking at possibly a different thermostat in the switchbacks and sp's? Sorry, if this was already covered, I've read so much I'm starting to dump info from this thread. oops

 

[trench]

By the time you guys get finished with this one you will have figured out all the values in side that box called the ECU.
Then Polaris will be calling you guys, good work! I wish I could help.

 

[dynotechjim]

If you look at all the graphs I've posted on DTR, plus the graph I posted here on page 6, it shows the valves opening every time at about 6700. With a smoking hot pipe the valves open a bit too early causing that dip in the HP curve right there. If you do a dyno run with the pipe cool (like I did on the SB on DTR) the HP curve is seamless, and power valves open with no dip in HP curve. We've done runs with coolant as low as 60 or 70, and valves open every time. There must be some other issue causing those valves to hanging close.

 

[sled-werx racing]

Racemen

-got ahold of Rich on the cell heading to NOVI - mentioned about this member above having problem with the 5 sleds, Rich said the same as Jim , there's been no issue during testing at Dyno Port with valves not opening

 

[Racemen]

Racemen

-got ahold of Rich on the cell heading to NOVI - mentioned about this member above having problem with the 5 sleds, Rich said the same as Jim , there's been no issue during testing at Dyno Port with valves not opening

I can understand that on your machine it's work good , but we have this problem on 5 machines so is it not and isolated problem

 

[Johanw1978]

Racemen:
if valves are clean and ok it is polaris responsibility to fix it. call your dealer .

this is a great thread were the problems comes up and some of the problems maby needs some attention (like sp800 rich mapp) but many of you havent even brokenin your new 09 sled yet. And worry about performance,cooling etc (cooling seems to work fine as our 2008 rmk guys say,low numbers and thats whit termostat) We dont know what parameters polaris have programed in there ecu maby some kind of "running-in process" (brokenin)
dont worry so much .. lets test the sled in the snow first at lest 800km or more and if the sled run rich and dont perform lets contact our dealers.

Our dyno friends have their eyes open and that is going to help us whit some guide lines if we have problems in the long term.

 

[dynotechjim]

got an email from Polaris assuring me that the same ECU calibration is used on Dragon 800 SP, SB and RMK.

So why was our first SB so lean? Someone here suggested that the TPS might be not set correctly. That makes sense in light of the low fuel flow/ high HP. We didn't notice this while testing, but the sled exhibited leaner midrange than the SP's, which would probably happen if the ECU was set at, say, 85% instead of 100% at WOT (then most of the part throttle fuel map could be dangerously lean).

I've revised the DTR article on the website to reflect our current thinking.

We'll try to follow up on this sled to see if the TPS is, indeed, the reason for the lean mixture.

 

[Johanw1978]

good work jim !

how is it whit compressure ratio are they all the same on the 800? on the sp and switchback it whuld by the same .. is that samething you check everytime you run a dyno test ?

hopefully tps sensor has the same adjustment on all 800, if it is adjust by hand in the factory there is allways a chance that some of them are poorly adjust.

 

[Ron]

RMK900-all engine PN's are the same, including heads, so how can there be any variance in compression? Keep repeating this but with EPA regs and the cost involved there just isn't going to be any regional variance with CFI sleds. And if there were what would happen when you moved or went on vacation to ride at a different altitude?

Dealer setup should include setting the oil pump and the TPS. If it's off, can't it work both ways...too lean one direction and too rich the other? Wonder how many dealers just bolt on the skiis and send them out the door? What about checking the TPS on the "rich" sleds?
It also seems that until the rings seat and the bearings get loose that dyno testing is going to be off. Maybe not much but it can't be 100%.
Jim, earlier you said that DynoPort got the same results testing quote "one at DynoPort"-doesn't DynoPort use your dyno? Any tie in with DynoJet that produces Power Commander?

 

[Johanw1978]

It also seems that until the rings seat and the bearings get loose that dyno testing is going to be off. Maybe not much but it can't be 100%.

Yes this is what i was think at.. variation in compressure becuse the sleds are new.

 

[dynotechjim]

The fuel map ends at WOT, so there's no extra WOT fatness if the TPS is set incorrectly to read 100% if the throttle is only 90%. And if the TPS is set wrong purposely to lean out WOT, it may be dangerously lean in midrange. I'm wondering if Mike's dealer, meaning well, tweaked the SB's TPS for him to lean it out?

My own limited experience breaking in engines has shown nothing meaningful in terms of added power, though my contacts at Polaris say there is some improvement. I won't argue with that, but it can only be a percent or so at best. Nickasil cylinders come ready to go (the leakdown of brand new engines should be almost zero). And rolling element bearings won't have any meaningful clearance change with run time.

A few years ago for the AmSnow DTR Adirondack Shootout, Yamaha hired me to do an 8 hour dyno breakin on a RX1 that we were going to run in the shootout (thinking the two-strokes they were competing against had an advantage since they needed no breakin). On four-strokes I can measure ring seal with a blowby CFM meter on the dyno, which was nearly zero from the beginning to the end of eight hours. Horsepower was within 1/2% from out of the crate to the end of the breakin. That requested breakin was something like: WOT 6000 RPM for 1/2 hour, then 7000 RPM for 1/2 hour (then an oil change), 8000 RPM 1/2 hour etc etc etc, (remember this is all WOT), then the final 1/2 hour was 10,000 RPM WOT! Also, after the first hour at WOT, the cherry red pipes/ muffler caught the rubber track on fire (I put the fire out before it was ruined). After that, I protected the track with a ceramic insulation blanket.

20 years ago, all the eastern sled engine modifiers used my dyno facility for developing/ testing. Bender, Crankshop, D&D, DynoPort, Hooper, HTG all began their dyno careers here. Eventually, all of them acquired their own instrumented dynos. Now when I do testing for those guys, it's only for independent verification of stuff they've built, or for engines their dyno's can't hold. So DynoPort's test results are on Rich's own dyno, but will wind up here eventually.

There's no connection with DynoJet, other than founder Mark Dobeck sold me a DJ bike roller dyno that he invented years ago. I've nominated Mark for a Nobel Peace prize for dynos, since the DJ bike inertia dyno has changed the motorcycle industry for the better, with 1000's of dynos, everywhere, for motorcycle tuners to use to make sure they get parts that work, and the best possible HP. Remember, I've also nominated Rocky at Boondocker for a Nobel peace prize for creating the first manageable tuning system for EFI sleds that can giveth, and can taketh away fuel.

Mark Dobeck sold DJ some years ago, and at some point before or after that they graduated from rejetting kits for bikes and inertia dynos to EFI tuners. The first PowerCommanders were crude things, better than nothing, but now they're precise and manageable, allowing for perfect dyno tuning on modified EFI bikes. They began doing EFI Yamaha 4stroke sleds, and now are doing EFI two-strokes. The Dragon PCIII is first, but I also have a prototype plug-and-play PCIII for the newer EFI Cats. On bikes and Yamaha sleds they manage fuel and timing, but on the two-strokes it's fuel only.

This Monday, Allen Ulmer (South Dakota) is coming to dyno tune a Nytro Turbo that is fuel/ spark controlled with a PCIII with boost referenced tuner. That should be live on the DynoCams, and should be great fun.

 

[BigBoreManiac]

got an email from Polaris assuring me that the same ECU calibration is used on Dragon 800 SP, SB and RMK.

So why was our first SB so lean? Someone here suggested that the TPS might be not set correctly. That makes sense in light of the low fuel flow/ high HP. We didn't notice this while testing, but the sled exhibited leaner midrange than the SP's, which would probably happen if the ECU was set at, say, 85% instead of 100% at WOT (then most of the part throttle fuel map could be dangerously lean).

I've revised the DTR article on the website to reflect our current thinking.

We'll try to follow up on this sled to see if the TPS is, indeed, the reason for the lean mixture.

I am very confused by the contradictions in Polaris' map for this machine. Tell me if I've got it right:

The first sleds are fat (ie 800SP). It requires a PCIII or aftermarket mod pipe to lean out the top end just to produce the promised 154 HP. However, that map has a safe midrange for crusing. Wouldn't it use excessive fuel during this fat cruising and tend to foul plugs?

The next sled (800 SB) produces the 154+/- HP from the getgo. However the midrange is in burndown ratios during cruise speeds. No chance of a pipe here unless you fatten her up some.

Doesn't this all point to the need for a whole new map? One that offers cruising ratios and WOT HP. It certainly appears that the hardware can do everything expected. Now it's time to get the right software.

 

[Ron]

Doesn't this all point to the need for a whole new map? One that offers cruising ratios and WOT HP. It certainly appears that the hardware can do everything expected. Now it's time to get the right software.

What about actual experience with the 2008 sleds? Granted the map is a composite of different elevations and conditions but it worked very well last year at mid elevation where initial testing and design likely took place. Maybe it's premature to judge the 09 map that has another year of development?
Lets assume that Polaris produces a map that is 4% on the rich side to deal with low fuel quality that some sledders will run-we don't have any means to test fuel from the pump. Jim has a good write up on poor fuel and encountered some his first day of dyno testing. How many should tune the sled to run on the ragged edge?
And what if you increase intake flow and add an aftermarket pipe? In the past you almost always had to jet up after adding aftermarket pipes. Last year the SLP single worked great at 5-8000'. Good plug reading, good performance and decent fuel economy. A little rich in midrange but that went away with the first map change in January.
So.......are we getting hasty trying to throw everyone in the same bucket here? On new sleds-has anyone even had their sled in the snow?

Jim,
I didn't see any reports on the TPS adjustment causing a lean condition last year only a rich condition. Almost certainly went both ways though. What if the TPS shows the ECU part throttle yet R's are high, pipe tem high, etc....might not the ECU add fuel? Since no one but Polaris knows the ECU logic we are just making assumptions?

 

[dynotechjim]

I'm going to Email everyone who's got a PCIII to suggest they check for correct WOT TPS setting. The PCIII connects to a laptop cable showing the fuel map, RPM and TPS from 0 to 100%. Even with the engine off, it will show TPS position as throttle is moved from idle to full WOT. It also shows the description of the map that's loaded into it. Since we are guessing that this particular switchback's TPS was set wrong, leaning it out with PCIII or boondocker would hurt performance, so it's a one minute test to be sure before riding.

 

[Fast_XC]

Does anyone know (other than Polaris) what the correct wide open tps number is? According to the posted video on setting the tps (which i believe was a polaris video), you set it with the plates closed, then synch the plates, then adjust for the idle offset. No where does it mention WOT setting. Not even in the service manual.
If anyone has this info, it would be nice to know.
Neil

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

For those who are going to adjust your tps..be very careful, the slightest movement makes a big change in A/F ratio....you can easily lean it up to much....

 

[wellfed777]

don't let this post stop its too good
keep the dyno info coming

 

[instigator]

Tps

I know when I purchased my 07 Dragon 7 last year MPG and performance were in the toilet. Adjusting the oil pump (arm not returning all the way) and setting the TPS to the low side of the spec at idle changed plug color from wet coal black to mocha brown and MPG increased 4 -5 mpg!

Check that TPS setting...

 

[dynotechjim]

Check your TPS setting with the Power Commander PCIII

After plugging in the PCIII to your sled's ECU, and loading the supplied PCIII DVD program onto your PC, you connect the PC to the PCIII via supplied cable. With supplied 9v jumper plugged in to PCIII and engine not running, you can see TPS reading go from 0 to 100 as you go from idle setting gradually to WOT. If you see substantially less than 100 (ie 90) then you may be in need of TPS sensor adjustment which is a dealer thing.

If you opt to run with wrong TPS, ie 90 instead of 100 at WOT you run lean and powerful at WOT but your midrange may be way too lean for safe operation, perhaps constantly setting off det sensor. Since the PCIII DTR maps are mostly tweaking the PCIII 100 setting, if your WOT setting is 90 then not much will happen.

Again, Polaris is adamant that the ECU maps for D8 SP, SB, and RMK are identical so I have to accept that. The TPS setting is critical for perfect tuning for midrange cruising as well as WOT conditions. To make best use of a preprogrammed PCIII the TPS factory setting should be set accurately.

 

[SpeedWobble]

When I purchased my '05 900, I was told that there were three different injectors that may come on the sleds. I was told that not all injectors flowed the same amount of fuel so they sorted the injectors into three groups; red, blue and yellow. Each color corresponded to a different flow rate of the injectors. In order for this to work the injectors had to match the right fuel map on the ECU. For example, if you had "red" injectors, you had to have the "red" fuel map in the ECU.

Assuming this is correct, could this show up on the dyno as a different fuel map? It would be good to know what injectors the Dragon and the SB that Jim dynoed had, red yellow or blue. As I recall the injector color was listed on a box under the clutch guard on the newer sleds.

Jim, let us know what you find for injectors on any 800's that you have come through your dyno shop.

Thanks

SpeedWobble