jim, i know altronic offers probes up to 6" long and i think you can get longer but i will have to look at my book out, we use them on the big industrial motors for watching exhaust temps, can get em straight or 90 deg, j or k type, they are 1/4 inch so all you will have to do is weld a pipe coller to the pipe and put a 1/4 tubing fitting in and set to the desired depth and you will have her whipped,
DynoTech on the Poo 800-Some thoughts
- Thread starter Ron
- Start date
jim, for what it is worth,I just got my sled back from the dealer with the 09 piston/head/reflash on wenesday..rode the last 2 days(everything else on the sled exactly the same as it has been the previous 2 weeks riding the exact same place...after 25-30 miles I started putting the hammer to it and it went from pulling a consistent 8200-8250 the 2 previous weeks to pulling a consistant 8450 this weekend. (at an elevation of 800ft. to 2200 ft.) went riding with some other friends today at a different place (same elevations) and it still pulled a consistent 8450. two of the guys had well modded(twin pipes, reeds, porting,good clutching) edge chassis 159 tracked sleds. several of the guys said it pulls very very hard for a single piped 800..my guess is the actual pipe temps have to be higher on a climb...because the sleds pull way to hard in the soft for it to be down so much on power...
Jim
It seems some guys are getting different results via seat of the pants, RPM's, and piston wash with different temps. Seems as the 8's are good and lean in the mid range but in warm temps very rich like a 1/3 of the piston washed after wide open runs and then temps 10-15F and cooler still rich but much leaner (better looking piston wash and more RPM's). Could the ecu's programing for warm temps just be that far off and rich. And if that's the case how will your programs work you have designed for the pc111 at temps in the 50-60 degree weather compensate, and will they still work or be to lean at colder temps ?
It seems as polaris went really safe at warm ambient temps but when getting to real world temps it leans out. Have you done any testing in the colder temps?
It seems some guys are getting different results via seat of the pants, RPM's, and piston wash with different temps. Seems as the 8's are good and lean in the mid range but in warm temps very rich like a 1/3 of the piston washed after wide open runs and then temps 10-15F and cooler still rich but much leaner (better looking piston wash and more RPM's). Could the ecu's programing for warm temps just be that far off and rich. And if that's the case how will your programs work you have designed for the pc111 at temps in the 50-60 degree weather compensate, and will they still work or be to lean at colder temps ?
It seems as polaris went really safe at warm ambient temps but when getting to real world temps it leans out. Have you done any testing in the colder temps?
D
dynotechjim
Well-known member
I just realized that 22 years ago when I bought the Superflow 901 it came with eight 8" long 1/4" straight open element probes for V8 EGT. I still have them I can use one of those to accurately monitor pipe CS temp in the middle of the fat part of the pipe. I will compare that with a conventional short 90 degree open element probe fitted to the outside radius of the CS.
Now that we have early winter, feedback from low altitude D8 SP riders with fuel leaned out with PCIII stock pipe program has been 100% positive, higher revs with same clutching and/ or higher MPH in measured distance with weight added to pull the revs back down. I'm waiting for Bill Davis' high altitude feedback from his PCIII in the mountains.
Now that we have early winter, feedback from low altitude D8 SP riders with fuel leaned out with PCIII stock pipe program has been 100% positive, higher revs with same clutching and/ or higher MPH in measured distance with weight added to pull the revs back down. I'm waiting for Bill Davis' high altitude feedback from his PCIII in the mountains.
D
dynotechjim
Well-known member
FINALLY got my first winter air Dragon 800 to tune. This one is from Bikeman, tuning for the AmSnow/ DTR Adirondack Shootout
Baro 28.90 air temp in dyno room 30 degrees F or lower.
Stock w/ 93 octane 10% ethanol with ethanol setting. 138 HP.
Stock w/ 93 octane 10% ethanol with non-ethanol leaner setting 145 HP.
Plug in a PCIII with stock mapping 156 HP.
Bikeman preproduction stamped single pipe with PCIII tweaks 162.
Bikeman preproduction stamped single 157ish with no PCIII
I will post the technical details on DTR as soon as time permits.
Tomorrow I begin dyno certification of the shootout sleds over two days for the AmSnow DTR Adirondack Shootout. Live dynocams rolling.
Baro 28.90 air temp in dyno room 30 degrees F or lower.
Stock w/ 93 octane 10% ethanol with ethanol setting. 138 HP.
Stock w/ 93 octane 10% ethanol with non-ethanol leaner setting 145 HP.
Plug in a PCIII with stock mapping 156 HP.
Bikeman preproduction stamped single pipe with PCIII tweaks 162.
Bikeman preproduction stamped single 157ish with no PCIII
I will post the technical details on DTR as soon as time permits.
Tomorrow I begin dyno certification of the shootout sleds over two days for the AmSnow DTR Adirondack Shootout. Live dynocams rolling.
when you say plug in PCIII stock map do you mean costomizing fuel map with PCIII and a stock pipe you got 156? thats pretty good gain do you think that with the 156hp map the motor will last? in other words how far are you guys pushing it? power vs. reliability thanks great post keep it coming
(the bikeman pipe looking good on the dyno wonder how people are liking it on the hill)
(the bikeman pipe looking good on the dyno wonder how people are liking it on the hill)
D
dynotechjim
Well-known member
This sled had a 2 degree advance key, expect 154 with fuel flow reduction alone. with the sled's excellent deto protection I'm expecting that one can hold it wide open for two hours, burrowing through deep snow like some enjoy doing, coolant temp to the moon and no deto damage issues just lowered HP. But with normal conditions 154 is perfect with the fuel reduction affected with the preprogrammed PCIII.
I have mounted the slp air horn i mine.. shuld increace airflow a bit but is it enough ?
or shuld i do something like my friend did on his m7-05.. put a resistor (mainjet ,think it was like 330 in size. 5% reduse fuelflow) inside the fuelline input side.. maby not so "nice" solution but it works fine and a sheap solution
or shuld i do something like my friend did on his m7-05.. put a resistor (mainjet ,think it was like 330 in size. 5% reduse fuelflow) inside the fuelline input side.. maby not so "nice" solution but it works fine and a sheap solution
D
dynotechjim
Well-known member
that fuel restrictor could be very bad in a bypass EFI system like Polaris uses.
It is a cheap and effective trick on a dead-head EFI system like two-stroke cats use, with fuel pressure bypass on the pump in the tank. The was great cheap HP for F7s that were originally fueled to .80 lb/hphr and 128ish HP. This was pre-boondocker era, and we were searching for a way to drop top end fuel flow without hurting the already too-lean midrange. A smart engineer DTR subscriber emailed me suggesting that a tiny 290 main jet-size orifice in the EFI hose would accomplish that. I love being surrounded by smart people like that. But I couldn't believe that a 290 main jet-size orifice could feed an F7 engine. So on the dyno with a stock 128 HP F7 I started with a 1/4" ID orifice in the hose, which did nothing. Then I cautiously dropped restrictor size to .240 and still nothing. Maybe 15 restrictor changes later we were down to a 310 jet and fuel pressure finally began to drop, and power began to climb. On this sled we finalized the pressure at 37 psi on top end and HP was well over 144 HP at .60 lb/hphr. Other F7s that followed required 35-40psi to achieve the same top end fuel flow. That eventually led to D&D creating the adjustable PAC needle valve, and many iterations of the same idea from other companies. I used to sell dyno customers machined down needle jets for $20 they could install in their fuel lines and insert main jets into. But the problem there was the sled on my dyno was dandy at 37 psi, but if it got colder outside the injectors would stay open longer and drop rail pressure to 35 psi = deathly lean. So F7 savvy dyno tuned powerful sledders had to monitor their rail pressure with a dash-mounted gauge, and when temp dropped they had to go to larger main (or open the needle valve) to be powerfully safe. Sort of like reverting to carburetors. But for 140 plus HP no one complained!
But the Polaris bypass system doesn't allow for this sort of cheap trickery. That stock EFI pump blows its full capacity through the rail, then a pressure regulator on the opposite end of the rail bypasses anything not needed to create the desired rail pressure back to the tank. A tiny restrictor in the line coming from the pump creates a way-too touchy and possibly dangerous condition that might see top end pressure drop from, say, 56 psi to 49 psi but that could suddenly drop to 35 psi if temps dropped, way more than we might see with a dead-head system. Also, that might stack fuel pump head pressure to unsafe and fuel pump life-shortening levels.
The great and proven boondocker and now this new PCIII is the proper and safe way to set it and forget it (like the chicken-cooker guy Ron Popeil says), lean the sled out properly and not worry about watching rail pressure rise and drop with temp/ altitude.
It is a cheap and effective trick on a dead-head EFI system like two-stroke cats use, with fuel pressure bypass on the pump in the tank. The was great cheap HP for F7s that were originally fueled to .80 lb/hphr and 128ish HP. This was pre-boondocker era, and we were searching for a way to drop top end fuel flow without hurting the already too-lean midrange. A smart engineer DTR subscriber emailed me suggesting that a tiny 290 main jet-size orifice in the EFI hose would accomplish that. I love being surrounded by smart people like that. But I couldn't believe that a 290 main jet-size orifice could feed an F7 engine. So on the dyno with a stock 128 HP F7 I started with a 1/4" ID orifice in the hose, which did nothing. Then I cautiously dropped restrictor size to .240 and still nothing. Maybe 15 restrictor changes later we were down to a 310 jet and fuel pressure finally began to drop, and power began to climb. On this sled we finalized the pressure at 37 psi on top end and HP was well over 144 HP at .60 lb/hphr. Other F7s that followed required 35-40psi to achieve the same top end fuel flow. That eventually led to D&D creating the adjustable PAC needle valve, and many iterations of the same idea from other companies. I used to sell dyno customers machined down needle jets for $20 they could install in their fuel lines and insert main jets into. But the problem there was the sled on my dyno was dandy at 37 psi, but if it got colder outside the injectors would stay open longer and drop rail pressure to 35 psi = deathly lean. So F7 savvy dyno tuned powerful sledders had to monitor their rail pressure with a dash-mounted gauge, and when temp dropped they had to go to larger main (or open the needle valve) to be powerfully safe. Sort of like reverting to carburetors. But for 140 plus HP no one complained!
But the Polaris bypass system doesn't allow for this sort of cheap trickery. That stock EFI pump blows its full capacity through the rail, then a pressure regulator on the opposite end of the rail bypasses anything not needed to create the desired rail pressure back to the tank. A tiny restrictor in the line coming from the pump creates a way-too touchy and possibly dangerous condition that might see top end pressure drop from, say, 56 psi to 49 psi but that could suddenly drop to 35 psi if temps dropped, way more than we might see with a dead-head system. Also, that might stack fuel pump head pressure to unsafe and fuel pump life-shortening levels.
The great and proven boondocker and now this new PCIII is the proper and safe way to set it and forget it (like the chicken-cooker guy Ron Popeil says), lean the sled out properly and not worry about watching rail pressure rise and drop with temp/ altitude.
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Jim,
Great info. Do you happen to know when the PCIII will be coming out to the public? Their web site still says coming soon. I need one BAD!!!
Great info. Do you happen to know when the PCIII will be coming out to the public? Their web site still says coming soon. I need one BAD!!!
D
dynotechjim
Well-known member
I have an idea that even though they've provided PCIIIs for many thousands of EFI bikes (I've bike tuned many), they're so new to two stroke sleds they are selling all current production through me so I can create maps, deal with users and provide feedback. I have my third batch of PCIIIs showing up next Tuesday. I'm sold out now, you can get one next week. If you're in Canada SledWerx is buying them in bulk from me with a CD with all my current maps, that's the easiest way to acquire one.
Can I get some info on one? We can take this to PM if you prefer.
jim on your previous post with the hp #s what rpms were your at? thanks
D
dynotechjim
Well-known member
Leaned out with stock pipe and 1000-1100 deg CS temp indicated by digital wrench D8 HP peak was 8000 and very flat so under or overreving a hundred rpm or so at that pipe temp wouldn't bother much.
DynoJet has a good website showing the PCIII (off road version), and lists all options for field tuning like a LCD handlebar mounted screen showing exact throttle position, RPM and A/F if you add their wideband unit. You can datalog any RPM/TP that you don't like then replay and adjust.
DynoJet has a good website showing the PCIII (off road version), and lists all options for field tuning like a LCD handlebar mounted screen showing exact throttle position, RPM and A/F if you add their wideband unit. You can datalog any RPM/TP that you don't like then replay and adjust.
So Jim,
Are you going to sell the package with the AFR as well? I'm looking for an integrated system and would prefer not to piecemeal together possibly compatible parts. PM me with prices and delivery please.
is this test whit Tstat or whitout ?
it really boring to haft to buy a pc or boondocker to get the power that polaris promise.
A remapp shuld be in place now from polaris
now i haft to test which fuel here in sweden the sled runs best whit
95 octane whit 5%ethanol or 98 octane pure gasoline.
I have run whit 98 octane first tank but i suspect it runs extra fat whit 98 octane.
the 95 whit 5%ethanol shuld lean it out i bit . (the octanes is not counted the same here in sweden)
D
dynotechjim
Well-known member
If you run lighter ethanol fuel w/ leaner non-ethanol wire setting, you will make 5-6 more HP maybe mid 140s. I did that with the AmSnow shootout sled in 30 deg F air will post those numbers this week.
R
Ron
ACCOUNT CLOSED
Jim,
I don't think this is good advice, you haven't tested this for all the possibilities-I think Polaris has done more field work. It might work at sea level (might not the season is young) but there may not be any cushion at all altitudes in all conditions. There have already been some burn downs very likely caused by Ethanol fuel in sleds that don't have the dual map like the 09's. The deto sensor won't save a sled any more as you discovered in your first test of the Dragon. Just believe there is some risk running Ethanol in non Ethanol mode that needs to be clearly understood.
here in sweden raports comes in from d8 09 owners that tps is dont right adjust..
really important that tps is right adjust or else not so good power and por fuel milage.
maby thats the first thing you check before buy any pc:s or boondockers box
really important that tps is right adjust or else not so good power and por fuel milage.
maby thats the first thing you check before buy any pc:s or boondockers box
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R
Ron
ACCOUNT CLOSED
Agreed. TPS setting should be checked by the dealer during setup. My TPS was checked by Carl's, not sure if it's part of the normal process but it should be. Before buying a sled it's a good idea to go over the setup process with your dealer and then later the delivery check list to make sure they followed through.
Several more Sleds went down over the weekend with no fuel controller so.........are they really too rich in the snow????
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