Another Shooting & the Politics of it

[Wheel House Motorsports]

...you need solutions with compromise and that attack the issues from multiple angles. That is...if you’re genuinely looking for a solution. If not...might as well carry on as is.

This is the most accurate thing I have seen regarding the situation in a LONG time.

Saying you want to create a solution...with the fine print that it can have no affect on you, ex increased regulation, cost etc. This is basically saying you acknowledge there is an issue but you personally have no desire in working towards a solution. Your personal desires are above all else when it comes to the need for a solution.

I'm fine if you say **** it, I don't care. My rights exist and these are risk and liabilities I am willing to accept for my rights. I will respect you a lot more then pissing in the wind telling people you want a solution but argue against ANY and ALL reasonable problem solving methods.

 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

You missed my point. Facts are: rifles, including the scary black ones, are not the leading cause of firearm casualties in the US. Yes, they play a part but if you really cared about people being murdered by firearms then you’d be heading a different direction.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/table-12

So I checked out this link & downloaded the excel file. I find it interesting that the only 4 states with less than 40% of homicides being committed with a firearm are all "solid red states." (wyoming, South Dakota, Alabama, Idaho) - More Guns Does not equal more Gun deaths. Of course, it also doesn't hold out consistently. Red Texas has 73% of homicides committed with a gun.

But your right on the Rifle statistic. Handguns are used much more in violent crime. Portability & hide-ability probably play a large role in that. Its a little harder to conceal a rifle.

 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

Schools & guns...

Can we please get past this thought process? Its irrational and far from a reasonable solution on so many levels.


I have a pretty solid spread of friends who are teachers (some new, some older, male/female, preschool to higher education ) and I can assure you, they did not go through their educational path to become a teacher AND a gunfighter. They want to help the community by helping the youth of our nation becoming well educated members of society. I'm having a hard time coming up with a good example of why its a bad idea. But its so irrational that I would seem fairly self explanatory. The level of stress/responsibility being carried by our nations teachers is insane and is the reason a large number of my friends have shifted career paths. Im sure adding the stress of feeling personally liable for the life/death of all your students would sure help this....

From a budget standpoint, go ask a teacher if he/she can just wrangle up another 1k+ out of the budget for the year... They will laugh you back to the rock your living under with this idea. Our public education system is so poorly funded its insane. All the teachers I know end up spending a decent chunk of their already measly salary on school supplies to help creating a reasonable level of quality in their learning environment. The thought you are suddenly going to come up with another grand


This logical falacy needs to stop, it is not productive and meaningful solution.

The reliance on the public school system is part of the problem if you ask me. There are good teachers & I would say, 95% of teachers go into teaching for at least somewhat altruistic reasons. But you start getting beyond individual teachers & the larger the reach, the dumber it gets. Its the "None of us are as dumb as All of us" phenomenon. Think of every national effort to do anything with education in the last 20 years. Garbage. All of it. Designed not to produce good citizens, but an obedient working class.

I agree that the idea of arming teachers wouldn't work with our society as it is now. Teachers are products and servants (albeit somewhat unwillingly) of the state (not all encompassing here, but by and large). Were you to poll all the teachers in the country about their views on guns / 2nd ammendment, etc, I'm sure you would wind up with a substantially "left of center" aggregate. I like the vet idea. Though to me, an armed guard wandering the halls turns schools just a little closer to prisons for the young.

Why I homeschool my kids. I wish I had been too.

 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

The reliance on the public school system is part of the problem if you ask me. There are good teachers & I would say, 95% of teachers go into teaching for at least somewhat altruistic reasons. But you start getting beyond individual teachers & the larger the reach, the dumber it gets. Its the "None of us are as dumb as All of us" phenomenon. Think of every national effort to do anything with education in the last 20 years. Garbage. All of it. Designed not to produce good citizens, but an obedient working class.

I agree that the idea of arming teachers wouldn't work with our society as it is now. Teachers are products and servants (albeit somewhat unwillingly) of the state (not all encompassing here, but by and large). Were you to poll all the teachers in the country about their views on guns / 2nd amendment, etc, I'm sure you would wind up with a substantially "left of center" aggregate. I like the vet idea. Though to me, an armed guard wandering the halls turns schools just a little closer to prisons for the young. Why I Home school.

Why I homeschool my kids. I wish I had been too.

Though, amending that - I think even with the left of center slant, there would also be a small percentage - ENOUGH I would say - who would jump at the chance & could be that deterrent. And you won't know if it works until it is tried, sadly.

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

I like the vet idea. Though to me, an armed guard wandering the halls turns schools just a little closer to prisons for the young.

Ding Ding Ding. Another amazing point. Nothing like creating a healthy learning environment for our youth like patrolling the school with armed guards. Get that obedience based on fear established early in life.

 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

Trickle down gun economics

Where’s that “bunch more” money coming from? Should law abiding gun owners eat the brunt of it... And why? It’s not a sin tax!!! As a citizen I don’t mind sharing the burden but as a gun owner I don’t think I should be made responsible! Aren’t you essentially suggesting more gun control? Maybe every American can share the burden?

So... Ultimately any tax is a tax on everyone. You pay more for your guns and ammo - you charge more in your store for your products, or more for your services. And if every new gun sold has a chunk that goes to this tax, then the value of guns goes up, then even the black market guns are more expensive. A smoker has so much money to spend, and a chunk of that is taken up in taxes on tobacco. So he can't spend that money on the guitar he wants, so the Music store owner is also paying the tobacco tax.

I don't know. My logic might be off on that, but that seems how it works with groceries & gas taxes.

Beatles hit it with Taxman.

 

[jerrydecoy]

Can we please get past this thought process? Its irrational and far from a reasonable solution on so many levels.


I have a pretty solid spread of friends who are teachers (some new, some older, male/female, preschool to higher education ) and I can assure you, they did not go through their educational path to become a teacher AND a gunfighter. They want to help the community by helping the youth of our nation becoming well educated members of society. I'm having a hard time coming up with a good example of why its a bad idea. But its so irrational that I would seem fairly self explanatory. The level of stress/responsibility being carried by our nations teachers is insane and is the reason a large number of my friends have shifted career paths. Im sure adding the stress of feeling personally liable for the life/death of all your students would sure help this....

From a budget standpoint, go ask a teacher if he/she can just wrangle up another 1k+ out of the budget for the year... They will laugh you back to the rock your living under with this idea. Our public education system is so poorly funded its insane. All the teachers I know end up spending a decent chunk of their already measly salary on school supplies to help creating a reasonable level of quality in their learning environment. The thought you are suddenly going to come up with another grand


This logical falacy needs to stop, it is not productive and meaningful solution.

You haven’t been listening to the teachers of late. A large group of them want the ability to carry in class. They don’t feel safe and can you Blame them??? Money is gonna have to come from some where regardless of what gets done. Metal detectors and armed people in schools is not a meaningful or product soulution? When did I ever say it needed to come from the current budget? Maybe it's you under the rock in liberal Bozeman Montana? Would you support more guns being carried by security in the schools or is that too irrational as well?

 

[jerrydecoy]

So... Ultimately any tax is a tax on everyone. You pay more for your guns and ammo - you charge more in your store for your products, or more for your services. And if every new gun sold has a chunk that goes to this tax, then the value of guns goes up, then even the black market guns are more expensive. A smoker has so much money to spend, and a chunk of that is taken up in taxes on tobacco. So he can't spend that money on the guitar he wants, so the Music store owner is also paying the tobacco tax.

I don't know. My logic might be off on that, but that seems how it works with groceries & gas taxes.

Beatles hit it with Taxman.

The only part that made any sense is the "my logic might be a lil' off" part!!!

 

[jerrydecoy]

Honestly, Whatever the military & the police use, the common citizenry should be able to access too. I don't know that everyone needs access to a tank, but If you can afford it & use it properly, What's it going to hurt? (ok, maybe the tank is taking it a little too far - Build your own Nuclear warhead kit? - who knows?)

The AR was not and is not military issue. That's leftist media garbage!

 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

The AR was not and is not military issue. That's leftist media garbage!

You're very particular about what designation a weapon is given aren't you?

P90's?

I'm not up on the official designation or what is or is/was not military issue for weapons.

 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

The only part that made any sense is the "my logic might be a lil' off" part!!!

I can't be expected to be stunningly brilliant in every post, can I?

I at least seem to have derailed the "How about our great President" post temporarily.

 

[Jaynelson]

I'll bet a fun coupon(20$ bill) that you're not a gun owner and that you may think differently if you were. If you are please p.m. Me your mailing address and it'll be on its way!

I have a cheap 12 gauge I use to shoot clays once or twice a year. I thought I might bring it for camping or hiking in bear country, but never have bothered/forget/don't care. It's not a large part of my life....super confident I'll never wind up on TV with "gun owner" under my name. It's a toy to me....like my snowboard I use once or twice a year. It's locked up in buddy's gun safe not available for home defense...I think my dog does a fine job. It's fun, I can see for some how it can be more of an interest/hobby, but ultimately its pretty low on my list. I would do more hunting if I had more time and less other hobbies. But that's just me....I'm a pretty in the middle kinda guy, which after enough years in this section of SW, I don't expect politically/socially polarized individuals to understand.

 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

But that's just me....I'm a pretty in the middle kinda guy, which after enough years in this section of SW, I don't expect politically/socially polarized individuals to understand.

GO RADICAL CENTRISTS!!!!

 

[jerrydecoy]

I have a cheap 12 gauge I use to shoot clays once or twice a year. I thought I might bring it for camping or hiking in bear country, but never have bothered/forget/don't care. It's not a large part of my life....super confident I'll never wind up on TV with "gun owner" under my name. It's a toy to me....like my snowboard I use once or twice a year. It's locked up in buddy's gun safe not available for home defense...I think my dog does a fine job. It's fun, I can see for some how it can be more of an interest/hobby, but ultimately its pretty low on my list. I would do more hunting if I had more time and less other hobbies. But that's just me....I'm a pretty in the middle kinda guy, which after enough years in this section of SW, I don't expect politically/socially polarized individuals to understand.

I’ll own it! Please pm me your mailing address. Thought for sure I was right on that one!

 

[jerrydecoy]

You're very particular about what designation a weapon is given aren't you?

P90's?

I'm not up on the official designation or what is or is/was not military issue for weapons.

Actually I’m not particular about it because I didn’t designate who uses it and who doesn’t! I was referring to your statement on “the general public having whatever the military or police have”. The media has spun the AR to be this assault weapon and a large group has bought into it! They’ve made this gun out to be the equivalent of the m16 and it’s nowhere close. We can at least try and get our facts straight!

 

[Jaynelson]

Think of every national effort to do anything with education in the last 20 years. Garbage. All of it. Designed not to produce good citizens, but an obedient working class.

I agree that the idea of arming teachers wouldn't work with our society as it is now. Teachers are products and servants (albeit somewhat unwillingly) of the state (not all encompassing here, but by and large). Were you to poll all the teachers in the country about their views on guns / 2nd ammendment, etc, I'm sure you would wind up with a substantially "left of center" aggregate. I like the vet idea. Though to me, an armed guard wandering the halls turns schools just a little closer to prisons for the young.

Why I homeschool my kids.

Very agree with this. Locking doors, metal detectors, armed guards, armed teacher - is it an idea? Sure. But it's a pretty ugly one in my mind - was going to say if you didn't.... "sounds like a prison."

Also, it's a very reactive solution, and not addressing (or attempting to address) the root(s) of the problem....only trying to catch it at the very end.

Hell I'm half way considering sending my kid to the local Waldorf school, as I feel the "norm" of education short changes a lot of kids in a lot of ways, and intentionally draws out the education process. Definetly not looking for a more restrictive and structured education environment.

 

[jerrydecoy]

Very agree with this. Locking doors, metal detectors, armed guards, armed teacher - is it an idea? Sure. But it's a pretty ugly one in my mind - was going to say if you didn't.... "sounds like a prison."

Also, it's a very reactive solution, and not addressing (or attempting to address) the root(s) of the problem....only trying to catch it at the very end.

Hell I'm half way considering sending my kid to the local Waldorf school, as I feel the "norm" of education short changes a lot of kids in a lot of ways, and intentionally draws out the education process.

It’s beyond an idea. ... it’s already a reality! Armed guards, lock doors and metal detectors are already in place in many schools!!! Does anyone know if there’s ever been a school shooting that had an armed resource officer present in the school?

 

[jerrydecoy]

Ding Ding Ding. Another amazing point. Nothing like creating a healthy learning environment for our youth like patrolling the school with armed guards. Get that obedience based on fear established early in life.

What are you talking about “obedience based on fear”??? Do you have school age kids? I don’t know what it’s like for all but I can tell you what my son and his friends say. My boy goes to a high school with about 1800 students. They know the officer by name and all of my sons friends says he’s a super nice guy. To them he’s a part of the school... no different then the lunch lady. They know why he’s there and don’t mind his presence! I get that is foreign for those of us who didn’t have to deal with this but times have changed!

 

[Jaynelson]

I’ll own it! Please pm me your mailing address. Thought for sure I was right on that one!

All good man, I don't take the internet that seriously, and I genuinely enjoy the discussion. I appreciate the follow through tho! Lets just say....if it's somewhat outdoors related....I probably have it/have had it/will have it as soon as I justify the $$. Fishing stuff, hiking stuff, tent camping stuff, RV camping stuff, mountain bike, dirt bike, sled, golf stuff, snow shoes, snowboard, kayak, paddle board, power boat, water sports crap, $10 wal mart dingy to float down the river with beer. Redneck stuff or granola stuff I don't care LOL...."too many hobbies" according to spouse...

 

[jerrydecoy]

All good man, I don't take the internet that seriously, and I genuinely enjoy the discussion. I appreciate the follow through tho! Lets just say....if it's somewhat outdoors related....I probably have it/have had it/will have it as soon as I justify the $$. Fishing stuff, hiking stuff, tent camping stuff, RV camping stuff, mountain bike, dirt bike, sled, golf stuff, snow shoes, snowboard, kayak, paddle board, power boat, water sports crap, $10 wal mart dingy to float down the river with beer. Redneck stuff or granola stuff I don't care LOL...."too many hobbies" according to spouse...

Well if it’s any consolation I try and stimulate your economy as much as I can. My son plays in the Canadian sport school hockey league.... so I spend most weekends north of the border!