Another Shooting & the Politics of it

[Wheel House Motorsports]

I guess, call me more of a problem solver and a bad communicator. The points being, the methods we are discussing are more of a what color bandaid do we want on the wound, im wondering why do we keep ending up with the wound. Im thinking more upstream. How do we stop this from happening. Like mentioned above, you can't have gun crime without guns. But as also mentioned. That is not a viable solution, nor is the object the cause or source of the crime. So where do we start. Since this is my opinion and limited worldview, its obviously more of an anecdote then anything. Just giving you another point of view.

To start this rant, I am an avid firearm enthusiast/owner. I have a decent collection as well and, aside from 1 shotgun none of them would serve any practical hunting purpose. They are toys to me and I sure to enjoy shooting them. I also have some NFA toys because I enjoy them, not because they have any practical application or use besides fun.

All my guns live tucked away nicely at my home besides a pistol that cruises around in my truck(putting down hit deer etc) I used to concealed carry on a fairly regular basis as well as had a nicely equipped "truck gun". Then I started thinking about how absurd the whole situation was. Of the actual and real threats in my life I am significantly more likely to die from the truck, texting and driving. The mtn dew I had at lunch is a bigger threat to my life than the gun I am packing around to defend myself. I should wear a helmet on the way to work instead of packing a gun. If im being reasonable, these are the choices I would make to best protect my life.

I had to really step back and check my ego. I AM NOT this bad *** lone vigilante out to save the day. "Bad guys" aren't hiding around every corner. I am not Jason bourne, I am not James bond, I am not the punisher. Im just a regular dude who goes to work and ride my sleds and dirt bikes on the weekend and happens to like guns. This constant portrayal of people who seem to be able to cheat death and conquer the bad guy are cool to watch but they distort our view of reality. Nobody is making movies about a guy who tried to stop crime, missed the assailant and killed another innocent bystander. Thats not sexy, thats not badass. Thats manslaughter. These are the things you have to think about. When you watch movies, and there is some shootout in the streets, club etc, start imagine firing a pistol in a crowd, think of the danger you are now introducing to the environment. Gun fighting is NOT sexy, taking a life is the last thing we should be preparing ourselves for as regular people. We should be doing everything we can to show people the value of life. Not teaching them how to take more of them.


This excitement to go out, buy a gun, start carrying it, training with it is fueled by a delusion shown to us day in and day out from music, tv, movies and video games. Our ego is taking over not rational thought. We want to be the hero. We want to save the day. We imagine insane scenarios where we come out guns blazing and take down the bad guy and everyone lives happily ever after. The reality is taking a life is terrible. Being the "good guy" doing it doesn't make it feel good. We are not increasing the worth of human life by preparing to kill others. We are diminishing it. We are becoming more and more numb to the idea of taking life.

Yes, there are some loose screws out in the world. There always will be. Instead of putting all of this time and energy into preparing to shoot them and "turn their head into a canoe" why not put that focus into creating a better community. Support and love those around you and just maybe that wacky neighbor will become your friend instead of trying to pick you off on the way to work.

Anyways, not sure I solved any problems here, just my thoughts.

 

[BLITZKRIEG]

Just giving you another point of view.
I AM NOT this bad *** lone vigilante out to save the day. "Bad guys" aren't hiding around every corner. I am not Jason bourne, I am not James bond, I am not the punisher. Im just a regular dude who goes to work and ride my sleds and dirt bikes on the weekend and happens to like guns. This constant portrayal of people who seem to be able to cheat death and conquer the bad guy are cool to watch but they distort our view of reality. Nobody is making movies about a guy who tried to stop crime, missed the assailant and killed another innocent bystander. Thats not sexy, thats not badass. Thats manslaughter. These are the things you have to think about. When you watch movies, and there is some shootout in the streets, club etc, start imagine firing a pistol in a crowd, think of the danger you are now introducing to the environment. Gun fighting is NOT sexy, taking a life is the last thing we should be preparing ourselves for as regular people. We should be doing everything we can to show people the value of life. Not teaching them how to take more of them.
This excitement to go out, buy a gun, start carrying it, training with it is fueled by a delusion shown to us day in and day out from music, tv, movies and video games. Our ego is taking over not rational thought. We want to be the hero. We want to save the day. We imagine insane scenarios where we come out guns blazing and take down the bad guy and everyone lives happily ever after. The reality is taking a life is terrible. Being the "good guy" doing it doesn't make it feel good. We are not increasing the worth of human life by preparing to kill others. We are diminishing it. We are becoming more and more numb to the idea of taking life.
Anyways, not sure I solved any problems here, just my thoughts.

Your story/example i have read and heard before, written and told by others in the anti gun crowd trying to brain wash the weak minded into thinking gun ownership is only to satisfy a John Wayne fairytale image.
Guns have always and will always be the saving grace that sets us apart from the rest of the world.
Guns protect the weak, guns protect the small, guns protect the elderly, guns protect our freedoms, guns protect our country from being invaded, guns protect my family when i'm not there, guns put food on the table, guns protect our Jews from Nazis, guns protect.... so on and so on.
To stay on topic of this tread my opinion would be to eliminate "gun free zones" thus giving criminals the uneasy feeling of knowing law abiding citizens may be packing.
Also follow Utahs lead, law abiding citizens who complete a utah CFP class/background check/license can legally carry in schools.

 

[Mafesto]

The above two posts are two opposite perspectives, yet both with merit.
Proof that we can disagree, and still not be wrong.

Myself? I used to enjoy hunting, but over the years came to the opinion that if I don't enjoy the meat it isn't right to kill the game. But that's just for me, and I fully agree with other's right to hunt.
WHM is correct that we have become numb to the value of human life, but I still believe I have the right and hopefully the ability to terminate someone violating my own or my neighbor's property.

It is critical that would be criminals fear the homeowners. If that's not the case....it's all over.

 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

Why I started this thread

The above two posts are two opposite perspectives, yet both with merit.
Proof that we can disagree, and still not be wrong.

Myself? I used to enjoy hunting, but over the years came to the opinion that if I don't enjoy the meat it isn't right to kill the game. But that's just for me, and I fully agree with other's right to hunt.
WHM is correct that we have become numb to the value of human life, but I still believe I have the right and hopefully the ability to terminate someone violating my own or my neighbor's property.

It is critical that would be criminals fear the homeowners. If that's not the case....it's all over.

This is absolutely why I started this thread. If we never see things from another person's perspective, we never really learn anything. Mass shootings are a problem & there's no easy fix. I've changed my views from time to time on this issue & continue to do so. I can see both sides & appreciate both sides. When discussion is happening, and people actually listen to ideas without knee jerk judgements, understanding happens. If we can increase understanding, then the "other side" is no longer stupid or delusional, they are just different and have a different opinion. Understanding is more important than agreeing. Then we value human life a little more hopefully. Talking with my wife last night about this issue, we don't even see eye to eye on it, but we understand each other.

Thanks for all your feedback.

 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

All my guns live tucked away nicely at my home besides a pistol that cruises around in my truck(putting down hit deer etc) I used to concealed carry on a fairly regular basis as well as had a nicely equipped "truck gun". Then I started thinking about how absurd the whole situation was. Of the actual and real threats in my life I am significantly more likely to die from the truck, texting and driving. The mtn dew I had at lunch is a bigger threat to my life than the gun I am packing around to defend myself. I should wear a helmet on the way to work instead of packing a gun. If im being reasonable, these are the choices I would make to best protect my life.

I had to really step back and check my ego. I AM NOT this bad *** lone vigilante out to save the day. "Bad guys" aren't hiding around every corner. I am not Jason bourne, I am not James bond, I am not the punisher. Im just a regular dude who goes to work and ride my sleds and dirt bikes on the weekend and happens to like guns. This constant portrayal of people who seem to be able to cheat death and conquer the bad guy are cool to watch but they distort our view of reality. Nobody is making movies about a guy who tried to stop crime, missed the assailant and killed another innocent bystander. Thats not sexy, thats not badass. Thats manslaughter. These are the things you have to think about. When you watch movies, and there is some shootout in the streets, club etc, start imagine firing a pistol in a crowd, think of the danger you are now introducing to the environment. Gun fighting is NOT sexy, taking a life is the last thing we should be preparing ourselves for as regular people. We should be doing everything we can to show people the value of life. Not teaching them how to take more of them.


This excitement to go out, buy a gun, start carrying it, training with it is fueled by a delusion shown to us day in and day out from music, tv, movies and video games. Our ego is taking over not rational thought. We want to be the hero. We want to save the day. We imagine insane scenarios where we come out guns blazing and take down the bad guy and everyone lives happily ever after. The reality is taking a life is terrible. Being the "good guy" doing it doesn't make it feel good. We are not increasing the worth of human life by preparing to kill others. We are diminishing it. We are becoming more and more numb to the idea of taking life.

Yes, there are some loose screws out in the world. There always will be. Instead of putting all of this time and energy into preparing to shoot them and "turn their head into a canoe" why not put that focus into creating a better community. Support and love those around you and just maybe that wacky neighbor will become your friend instead of trying to pick you off on the way to work.

Anyways, not sure I solved any problems here, just my thoughts.

I don't think most gun owners would see themselves as trying to be a hero. I don't know that gun ownership is what will curb mass shootings, but I do think that conceal & carry, or open carry as some states have, is a deterrent to crime. The majority of people would never actually pull the trigger on someone. But when a "bad guy" (even that term needs worked on, usually they are more desperate than "bad") pulls a gun, if someone else there pulls a gun on him, they will usually back down.

Its no different in that respect than the "nuclear deterrent." Which is about the only reason I see for any country to have nuclear weapons (another discussion entirely). Kim Jong Un can wave his little nuclear gun around all day long, but the minute he actually were to fire on someone, we'd reduce Pyong Yang to molten slag. If the US had no nuclear weapons, we might have reason to shake in our boots.

 

[Jaynelson]

Myself? I used to enjoy hunting, but over the years came to the opinion that if I don't enjoy the meat it isn't right to kill the game. But that's just for me, and I fully agree with other's right to hunt.
WHM is correct that we have become numb to the value of human life, but I still believe I have the right and hopefully the ability to terminate someone violating my own or my neighbor's property.

It is critical that would be criminals fear the homeowners. If that's not the case....it's all over.

Side note...I watched an interesting special years ago where they interviewed dudes in jail who used to B&E homes. They all agreed that the 2 biggest deterrents to them messing with a home were large dogs, and vehicles in the driveway. Alarm systems, guns, fancy locking/gate systems, security cams/companies were all further down the list. I always thought that was interesting.

 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

Side note...I watched an interesting special years ago where they interviewed dudes in jail who used to B&E homes. They all agreed that the 2 biggest deterrents to them messing with a home were large dogs, and vehicles in the driveway. Alarm systems, guns, fancy locking/gate systems, security cams/companies were all further down the list. I always thought that was interesting.

Good thing my son has his shi tzu chihuahua cross to guard our home.

 

[jerrydecoy]

This is quite interesting!


https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment...vor-says-cnn-gave-him-scripted-134229171.html

 

[turboless terry]

Imagine that.

 

[snowdog484]

Side note...I watched an interesting special years ago where they interviewed dudes in jail who used to B&E homes. They all agreed that the 2 biggest deterrents to them messing with a home were large dogs, and vehicles in the driveway. Alarm systems, guns, fancy locking/gate systems, security cams/companies were all further down the list. I always thought that was interesting.

Not that interesting really. Whenever we tee peed someones house when we were younger, as soon as someones dogs started barking we were outta there. Why? glad you asked.....Whats the first thing you do when the dog(dogs) go ballistic at 3am? Go to the front door and look out?? Maybe, if you look at the world thru rose colored glasses. First thing I do is grab my Smith and Wesson. Then I will take a look around.

 

[Jaynelson]

Not that interesting really. Whenever we tee peed someones house when we were younger, as soon as someones dogs started barking we were outta there. Why? glad you asked.....Whats the first thing you do when the dog(dogs) go ballistic at 3am? Go to the front door and look out?? Maybe, if you look at the world thru rose colored glasses. First thing I do is grab my Smith and Wesson. Then I will take a look around.

Roughly how many home invaders do you have to shoot per year? If anything woke work me up at night, I'd be most worried it's a racoon tipping over the garbage can. Different worlds tho.

 

[snowdog484]

Roughly how many home invaders do you have to shoot per year? If anything woke work me up at night, I'd be most worried it's a racoon tipping over the garbage can. Different worlds tho.

Totally agree! My luck, now a days the one time you let your guard down...
The closest people to me are a half mile away. my driveway is 1500' long. Trees all around. If the dogs go nuts, its going to be something. 99.5% it will be a critter. I don't want that one time tho, when I walk to the slider door and look out on the deck and see someone looking back at me and say ohhh chit

 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

Protesting Students

Couldn't have put it better myself. Brainwash the young & you get complete control.

 

[Pro-8250]

Totally agree! My luck, now a days the one time you let your guard down...
The closest people to me are a half mile away. my driveway is 1500' long. Trees all around. If the dogs go nuts, its going to be something. 99.5% it will be a critter. I don't want that one time tho, when I walk to the slider door and look out on the deck and see someone looking back at me and say ohhh chit

Same here. I have had snowmobilers drive up my driveway either because they made a wrong turn or they need help. Can't react like Barney Fife.

 

[Pro-8250]

So... Ultimately any tax is a tax on everyone. You pay more for your guns and ammo - you charge more in your store for your products, or more for your services. And if every new gun sold has a chunk that goes to this tax, then the value of guns goes up, then even the black market guns are more expensive. A smoker has so much money to spend, and a chunk of that is taken up in taxes on tobacco. So he can't spend that money on the guitar he wants, so the Music store owner is also paying the tobacco tax.

I don't know. My logic might be off on that, but that seems how it works with groceries & gas taxes.

Beatles hit it with Taxman.

In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes. Benjamin Franklin.

 

[Cat-man-Doo]

Is it worth your son's or daughter's life so you can own a AR-15? I think your opinion would be quite different if one of your children were killed. I in no way think that all guns should ever be made illegal but guns such as the AR-15 that cause these incidents to have such high casualty rates need to go.

I think about this every time something like this happens. "What if that was my child or grandchild?". I always come up with the same answer, I would be devastated that they were deliberately killed and I would want answers regarding the killer and why that individual would do this and how can we help prevent others from deliberately killing others. The METHOD they used is never considered because I would not be any happier if they had used a pipe bomb, a car or a knife or a machete or whatever. In fact, I would be MORE traumatized if my loved one was tortured and died a slow painful death but still, it would be about the killer, not the method. I guess that's the difference between caring about the victims and being offended by the wanton killing and just using the victims to further an ideology. I'm opposed to ALL murder, not just gun murders. Different stroke for different folks I guess.

 

[Pro-8250]

Food for thought.

Family of AR-15 Inventor Eugene Stoner: He Didn’t Intend It for Civilians.

"Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47".

More children die from guns in the U.S. than in any other high-income nation. Among wealthy, industrialized countries, 91 percent of children under 15 killed by guns die in the United States, according to the National Institutes of Health.

19 children killed or injured by gun violence every day in America, new study estimates.

The study showed that nearly 1,300 children died in a two year period as the result of firearms.

 

[rhino89523]

Switzerland has a chit ton of guns, you never hear a dam thing happening in Switzerland...wonder why? Those dudes love that FAL, very similar to the AR. They don’t have a bunch of dead kids, they don’t have a bunch of school shootings, they do have a bunch of people sporting “evil” weapons in their gun safes.

Another fun fact, Australia takes away guns, people site oooh look gun violence has gone down, homicide rate remains nearly unchanged but the tool used differs.

The magazine size thing is a joke too, watch Jerry Miculek, dude runs 16 bullets in under 4 seconds on target with a reload in the middle and oh yeah....it was a revolver.

If someone is dead set on harm it’s just too easy, chit Look at how much we lost with a couple box cutters. Oh we are safe now that they close the little piece of cardboard between passengers and pilots...look at that door next time, im more protected taking a crap in a porta pottie.

 

[jerrydecoy]

Food for thought.

Family of AR-15 Inventor Eugene Stoner: He Didn’t Intend It for Civilians.

"Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47".

More children die from guns in the U.S. than in any other high-income nation. Among wealthy, industrialized countries, 91 percent of children under 15 killed by guns die in the United States, according to the National Institutes of Health.

19 children killed or injured by gun violence every day in America, new study estimates.

The study showed that nearly 1,300 children died in a two year period as the result of firearms.

Your post is a bit misleading. His family is making assumptions based on conversations with him. Does it have merit... yes. Is it fact... no!

 

[Cat-man-Doo]

Food for thought.

Family of AR-15 Inventor Eugene Stoner: He Didn’t Intend It for Civilians.

"Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47".

First of all, that's hearsay and false. The AR-15 was designed as, and sold as a civilian arm, the civilian version of the M-16. However, even if it was true, so what. German shepherds were bred (designed) to be police/military dogs, Pit bulls to be fighting dogs, does that mean tat they should be banned for ownership by civilians??. It's not what something was "designed" for that matters, it's what it is USED for and that falls on the user not the item used.

More children die from guns in the U.S. than in any other high-income nation. Among wealthy, industrialized countries, 91 percent of children under 15 killed by guns die in the United States, according to the National Institutes of Health.

19 children killed or injured by gun violence every day in America, new study estimates.

The study showed that nearly 1,300 children died in a two year period as the result of firearms.

More food for thought, virtually ALL mass shooting occur in "gun free zones", gun laws vary from state to state and even city to city and the jurisdictions with the strictest gun laws have the highest gun death rates, those with the most lack gun laws, the lowest.