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Who's to Blame for Revy Avlanche?

ozone wasnt even there when it happend dumbchit!!! he never told anyone to go there either!! get ur story straight lady

ozone wasnt even there when it happend dumbchit!!! he never told anyone to go there either!! get ur story straight lady

Beerwalker..you will get a lot farther in life by educating someone that may not understand something. Someone that may have the facts wrong. Being disrespectful to anyone that doesnt fall in line with your thinking will only add to their fire if you know what i mean.

We all need to take a deep breath and think of the fallen brothers. Think of the families that lost fathers. Think of the mother that lost a son. Lets start acting and speaking more respectful...even if we dont like what someone else is saying. Try to understand what they are saying...you dont have to agree but they have the right to their viewpoint and shouldnt be called names or belittled because of a lack of understanding or whatever it may be.

It is more than time to think of educating people and make sure that this doesnt happen again...limit the chances..they will always be there.

Anytime someone rides above someone..take some action and educate them with whatever method will get the point across. Back in 2006 I knew a very good young teenager that is no longer with us when another rider triggered a slide. His father was injured but lived..to think of that father as he saw his son being dug out dead and cold. http://www.nwac.us/media/uploads/documents/accidents/2005_2006/Tiffany_Mountain_3-19-06.pdf
Mistakes were made. Pay attention when you ride..look out for others on the hill or on the run out. Ride with beacons..if someone doesnt have one tell them to go home. If you are a parent dont wait until Christmas to give one as a gift..buy it RFN. http://www.nwac.us/media/uploads/do...04/Revised_Blewett_Pass_Avalanche_12_17_0.pdf

To the fallen riders..I wish you peace, go now in peace and never be afraid, God will be with you.

To the Families and Friends..I wish you my heartfelt condolences. Nothing can replace the loss of a loved one. Be strong and remember them always. You will be in our Prayers.
Mark
 
Every one was not ignorant nor irresponsible they felt they where in a safe place. They, all 200 of them where not on the hill they where at the bottom watching people ride.Irresponsible would be with no avy training, no beacons, no shovels.And standing there after the fact asking for the phone number for 911. Because thats what the media and people like you are making every one out to be.A bunch of ignorant reckless extreme back country snowmobilers. Not the case.Ive taken the avy courses to, read books and been riding for twenty years.Does that make me a expert? Not close. I to would have parked where they did and felt safe.I guess that makes me ignorant?



If you have been riding for 20 years and fail to recognize the danger signs the mountains were showing (as well as the CAA) and are willing to stand in that runout with multiple guys climbing the hill at once, yes it does make you ignorant and irresponsible. We all make mistakes, but the most basic guidelines of travel in avalanche terrain were completely thrown out the window here, guidelines that have been common knowledge in the mountains since people started recreating in avalanche terrain. Mountains deserve respect and they didnt get it here.
 
With all do respect, please go get educated on the subject before you make comments like this, and more importantly, before you go riding again.

So you are 100 percent positive that if after the first guy would have dug himself out and came down, it would not have avalanched when the next guy went up?It could easily have came down when the first guy side hilled across.Either way that hill was coming down that day.And I do know about riding safe, the topic was about who is to blame sure the second guy set it off unfortunatley the first was still on the hill I am just stating that I think it would have went down 2nd 3rd fourth rider even if no other riders were on the hill.I guess I am not into throwing blame toward any one individual I think it was a combination of all riders that went up that hill during the day and snow conditions.
 
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I don't get it. People die every day doing the things they love to do. Who is responsable for that? We are as an individual. We are ment to die, let us die doing something we love to do, not sitting in front of a computer playing a game.
People die on the highway everyday who fault is that? I guess we should stay home and get fat and lazy so the world can be called a safe place.
Not me, I'm going out there and if I die out there don't shed a tear, just raise a glass and say that I tried to live the safest way I could.
RIP fellow ridders everywhere,you have taught me to be a safer rider.
 
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If you have been riding for 20 years and fail to recognize the danger signs the mountains were showing (as well as the CAA) and are willing to stand in that runout with multiple guys climbing the hill at once, yes it does make you ignorant and irresponsible. We all make mistakes, but the most basic guidelines of travel in avalanche terrain were completely thrown out the window here, guidelines that have been common knowledge in the mountains since people started recreating in avalanche terrain. Mountains deserve respect and they didnt get it here.

Ditto.....

Rule #2 never travel through dangerous backcountry with large groups.
 
I don't get it. People die every day doing the things they love to do. Who is responsable for that? We are as an individual. We are ment to die, let us die doing something we love to do, not sitting in front of a computer playing a game.
People die on the highway everyday who fault is that? I guess we should stay home and get fat and lazy so the world can be called a safe place.
Not me, I'm going out there and if I die out there don't shed a tear, just raise a glass and say that I tried to live the safest way I could.
RIP fellow ridders everywhere,you have taught me to be a safer rider.

Wrong people do not die everyday doing things they love to do...FAWKING IGNORANT

OT
 
Wrong people do not die everyday doing things they love to do...FAWKING IGNORANT

OT

WRONG OT.

In fact, PEOPLE DO DIE EVERY SINGLE DAY doing the things they love.

I have lost a great number of friends to Technical Diving and Parachuting.
When we choose to participate in High Risk Sports, we accept that there is a HIGH RISK of personal injury and sometimes even death.
 
*Disclaimer*
I'm a middle-aged, average rider with an average sled. I ride avy terrain. I take that risk.

I am also someone with substantial training in survival and risk assessment, and I was a trained and certified aircraft crash investigator. I use that training to mitigate my chances of being an avy victim.

Having said that please allow me to insist that there are no "accidents", there are mishaps. I'm not playing semantics here, there is a difference. In official circles the word "mishap" defines an event that causes damage or loss of property, and injury or loss of life due to failure (or a series of failures), either human or equipment. Even in the case of equipment failures, the root cause is usually human failure there as well. Mishaps are assumed to be caused which is why the term accident doesn't really apply.

We use the term accident all the time. It's a rationalization. As human beings we have a hard time blaming ourselves so blame luck, or fate, or God, or nature so we play the head game with ourselves and call any number of poor decisions "accidents".

Analyzing a tragic mishap such as the Turbo Hill avalanche requires a sober, emotionally detached review of the facts with no opinions, editorializing, or assumptions. This is not about pointing a finger but about answering the question Why?

OK, so let's look at the facts:

#1 This mishap did not occur during, or under the control of the BIS.

#2 Avalanches don't just happen. The set of conditions that produce them are entirely predictable. Turbo Hill is an obviously avy prone slope.

#3 The government agency responsible for monitoring avalanche conditions had issued it's highest warning for that area.

#4 The rider who triggered the avalanche violated the commonly accepted "rule" of cutting above a rider stuck on the slope. Despite much initial finger pointing, we don't know if this was done out of ignorrance--either the "rule" or the danger, or if it was done out of disregard for either.

#5 The BIS event, although informal, is a significant logistical and economic undertaking that once set in motion is difficult to alter. This is an important aspect because it speaks to the motivation for the folks that put themselves in harm's way. Many came from hundreds of miles away, committing precious personal resources such as vacation time and money. This makes the folks at Turbo Hill at that fateful moment no different then the fishermen who venture out on the water during storms, or the skydivers...every time they jump, or any number of potentially risky activities made riskier by pushing the limits of what is considered "safe". The Turbo Hill crowd was determined to get a return on the investment of their effort and commitment, and that desire can and does blind people to danger.

#6 "Groupthink" was in effect; aka Herd Mentality. Some of the spectators were not familiar with the area so they followed the crowd which is what people do when they're unsure of what to do. Crowds engender a false sense of safety even for people with avy awareness training who "should" know better, furthering the rationalization that a place or activity must be safe, or safe enough, otherwise there wouldn't be a crowd.

#7 Rider ego. Powersports in general and especially high aspect mountain riding on purpose-built mod sleds is not for timid people. Most mountain riders are young and male. They tend to be confident, athletic and competitive. Ego gets a many young males in trouble because it too can blind a person to warning signs.

#8 Avy training & equipment. As discussed in another thread, studies have shown that having training and equipment actually increases ones probability of being in an avalanche event. The assumption being overconfidence in the equipment to mitigate the risk.

#9 Complacency. The first time you dropped a cornice it was probably a short drop into nice fluffy, "safe" powder...and you were still nervous. You pulled it off which led to bigger, longer, more aggressive drops until you eventually tanked a landing. Maybe all you got was a helmet full of snow. Maybe you yard-saled your sled and had to be towed out and maybe you broke some bones...take a repeated risk often enough and succeed, and you'll learn to ignore the inherant danger in that risk until you push too far or make a mistake. I'm willing to bet that many of the folks on the hill that day had ridden avy prone slopes before...and gotten away with it.


Putting all of the factors together, we are presented with a scenario where the victims were in a state of self-reinforcing group denial about the hazard they had exposed themselves to. This was not an accident, it was a series of pyramiding failures that led to two otherwise preventable fatalities.

So who's at fault? Everyone
Every adult who was aware of the avy threat and either rode or went to the base of Turbo Hill bears some portion of responsibility because they made a conscious choice to be there in spite of the potential risk.

So who's at fault? No one
Group dynamics has a powerful effect on the psyche and on how individuals process information and make decisions. Ego, adrenalin, desire...to test yourself, to make the trip worthwhile, to have cool pics to post on this forum; past experience with taking risk and getting away with it. All these things came together to dampen the better instincts of what I'm assuming here was several experienced riders who on any other day, and in a smaller group, would have said "Let's get out of here, this thing could go any time".

Trying to find a scapegoat is a common, albeit, wrong reaction to such a tragedy. Placing blame does not revive the lost. If anything it clouds the issues surrounding "why" with anger and that doesn't do anybody any good.

Our responsibility as a community now is to be honest with ourselves and to learn from this terrible event and most importantly, to modify our behavior. I say we honor the dead best by admitting "That could have been me" and by committing ourselves not to repeat their mistakes.

Respectfully submitted,
Erik Burney
TFW
 
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So OT. Based on some of your posts I will ask you this. Suppose I wanted to have my wife in a safe vehicle for her daily driving (for instance a Toyota FJ Crusier) and so she goes out on road with it and it is winter and there are lots of other people out there and she comes upon icy conditions and suppose she is hit by another driver and she is killed and possibly one of my children is with her and killed as well. Who is to blame? The other driver? the manufacturer of her vehicle ? mother nature? Me for allowing her to purchase that vehicle ? Me for allowing her to drive in winter when we all know that ice is possible. Me for allowing her to drive at all? Or is it all her fault?
Does any of this hit a little close to home for you?, do you find any of it incencitive ? maybe you need another does of tough love?
 
SnoWest allows OT on here. Are they responsable for OT? No they are not! OT is responsable for OT. Should he not be allowed on here? No, he should be allowed. Its called freedom of speech. Even if it is painfull.
I lost 8 friends last year in an AVY. 7 of them decided to go back and rescue one that got burried and paid the price. They new the risks and did it anyway. Their choice and their responsability. Heros in my books. We are people and people do the things people do. Nobody is to blame. Good people die and it is sad but true. But only a few really live. Let them live!
If we allow the government close the back country because people will get hurt, what is next. We live in this country for one great thing......FREEDOM! Fight for it or we will loose it!!!!
 
So OT. Based on some of your posts I will ask you this. Suppose I wanted to have my wife in a safe vehicle for her daily driving (for instance a Toyota FJ Crusier) and so she goes out on road with it and it is winter and there are lots of other people out there and she comes upon icy conditions and suppose she is hit by another driver and she is killed and possibly one of my children is with her and killed as well. Who is to blame? The other driver? the manufacturer of her vehicle ? mother nature? Me for allowing her to purchase that vehicle ? Me for allowing her to drive in winter when we all know that ice is possible. Me for allowing her to drive at all? Or is it all her fault?
Does any of this hit a little close to home for you?, do you find any of it incencitive ? maybe you need another does of tough love?

Dude, your really ignoranant & im not afraid to discuss it....My wife in her FJ was struck head on during a snow strom by a woman who works for the sheriffs department. The woman was driving a chevy 1500 pickup who wasn't in 4 wheel drive, plus she was also cited for speeding when she struck my wife. Does that explain it IGNORANT......So now explain to me what that has to do with the revy avalanche ?

OT
 
*Sigh*

This is probably akin to spitting into the wind, but here goes.

OT

You can make your point on avy safety without acting like an arse.

Try it.

Generating dialogue = Good

Being a jerk = Bad

Try and figure out a happy medium, ok?

We should be discussing avy safety not just here after a fatality but every time we go out riding with our riding crew. But dogging on people here, using foul language and acting like a sanctimonious jerk is not going to sway anyone. If you really want to save a life then temper your comments so you don't turn people off the minute they start reading what you wrote.

Ok. I'm done now.
 
Back and forth banter

The negative back and forth banter on here is probably the most unproductive thing we can do. People are allowed to voice their opinion on this forum, regardless of how it may make another member feel. Right or wrong, that is the way it is. I am all for learning from what happened at Turbo hill, and trying to make sure it doesn't happen again. Does that mean that it never will? Probably not. But at least the people who are reading this thread can learn from it. Even if it is only one person it is worth it. Personally, I found out the hard way how dangerous and unpredictable the mountains can be. I am lucky to be alive to have learned from it. Afterwards I had to face some very hard facts as to why I was even in that situation in the first place. Not easy to do. Get educated on avalanche safety, encourage those you know to do the same. Know the risks. An educated, united, snowmobiling public is in the best interest for all of us who like to enjoy this sport.
 
So OT. Based on some of your posts I will ask you this. Suppose I wanted to have my wife in a safe vehicle for her daily driving (for instance a Toyota FJ Crusier) and so she goes out on road with it and it is winter and there are lots of other people out there and she comes upon icy conditions and suppose she is hit by another driver and she is killed and possibly one of my children is with her and killed as well. Who is to blame? The other driver? the manufacturer of her vehicle ? mother nature? Me for allowing her to purchase that vehicle ? Me for allowing her to drive in winter when we all know that ice is possible. Me for allowing her to drive at all? Or is it all her fault?
Does any of this hit a little close to home for you?, do you find any of it incencitive ? maybe you need another does of tough love?

your analogy doesnt make sense....Anybody that is married for more than a year knows that everything will be your fault..just ask your wife or listen to her talk to the other girls on ladies night!

OT..Not trying to pick on you, I am sure you have had enough of that.
Shots have been fired at you. Even a moderator took a small shot at you...thats a whole nuther issue in my book...

I respect your right to tell what you feel. Hwever you are not doing anybody, and I mean anybody any good by your shots that you throw out just the same. When you throw a shot at someone wether right or wrong it just puts people into a mental block state/defensive and anything you have to say is construed with no creditability..that goes for a few others also.

IF you have a valid point you should be able to present it and then move forward. If you have not been able to move forward without strong advertisity then perhaps you should reevaluate your position. It is more often than not, how you present a point and not what the point is that causes it to backfire.
I wish you well.

Hooya
 
Another point that no one has raised is that Turbo Hill is a common destination on Boulder. Its not normally considered to be extremely avy pron. I have rode revy fro the last 10 years and been past turbo many times a year and i have never seen it slide (at least not to any great extent), Ive seen sugar bowl slide and Ive seen the airport and the bull pen slide but never turbo. Not saying this is an excuse for what happened, its just that most people are some what experience with the spot and this may have given a false sense of security. And for all the years I've rode revy most people have always parked right where everyone was. Its not the they all ignored the risk, most people just parked where they always have parked and been safe in the past, old habits are hard to break, especially when there is a large group. Its easy to look at the picture afterwards and say every one was ignorant, but unless you were there you dont know. The pics are very deceiving and its not as easy to see that your still in the run-out area when you on the site.

I guess my point is that the familiarity of the spot probable gave a false sense of safety, and the fact that this was a once in 20 year slide caught most people off guard. Something to think about, and maybe one of the lessons we can learn from all of this
 
I think another issue is that an avy can slide out much further at times than some people think.I saw on here that most people at Revy were parked on a rise, and probably felt that even if the hillside slid they were out of the path. Just last week our local ski resort was doing "controlled avalanches" to make the slopes safe and they miscalculated and the slide went right into the parking lot. D'oh! (No injuries) And these were the experts. Anyone can miscalculate how far an avy can go. I've taken to parking twice as far away as I think a slope can slide. Hopefully that's far enough.
 
That is exactly right. Also I think people never realized how much snow is actually on that hill when you get couple feet of fresh that could come down.It is huge to look at but until you have actually went up it you dont really understand just how massive and steep it is.There is a lower area at the bottom where the snow never went.Instead it filled quite a large dip and then spilled over the rise and went down another hill.This is probably were I thought mabye it thinned out a bit and spit alot of the survivors out or at least never buried them too deep.
 
One of my sons wanted to go into the army. I asked him not to as it was dangerous etc. He went anyway with my blessings. I feared for me as I would hurt if anything would happen to him. 2 yrs later he told me that he believed my concerns were right and that he should have choose differently. Then he said thankyou to me for giving him my blessing and alowing him to find out for himself what life is about, as he needed to learn for himself and have that freedom to do so.
A thread should be started on the fact that the government should stay out of this and allow us to make our own decisions and not control our freedom. We deserve the right to be in control of our own lives.
 
sorry for the long post:

yesterday the province newspaper had this posted on their website:

In British Columbia, snowmobiling represents the final frontier of doing whatever the hell you want. Adventurers, for whom rules and regulations are an anathema, must delight in this reality.
Consider the following:
¦ A snowmobiler doesn't need a licence and isn't required to undergo any sort of safety training;
¦ Snowmobiles are not regulated in terms of modifications, such as souping-up the engine to overtake the most difficult of terrains;
¦ A snowmobiler doesn't have to insure the vehicle; ¦ Anyone can drive a snowmobile, as there is no age limit. ¦ Helmets are optional.
NDP safety critic Mike Farnworth thinks it is time for the government to look seriously at rules for snowmobilers. Public Safety Minister Kash Heed believes legislation is not the answer. Heed supports greater avalanche awareness.
We side mostly with Farnworth on this point. While common sense ought to be the guiding principle when driving a snowmobile, the fact is, these are vehicles and their operators ought to be required to follow some regulations.
It makes no sense that we are more regulated driving golf carts than we are driving snowmobiles.
Other provinces have age limits and/or licensing regulations. B.C. should, as well.
What do you think? E-mail a brief comment, including your name and town to: provletters@theprovince.com


i felt compelled to respond, and the following was what i wrote. some of my info was gathered here on the forums, and i even paraphrased some comments made by other members. (i hope they don't mind)

In regards to the public reactions I have been reading about the avalanche in Revelstoke, it is clear to me that many people here in BC are very near sighted. How is it that people that have no idea what the sport is all about, feel that they have the right to suggest imposing regulations against those that do? And just what do these people think will be accomplished by imposing regulations? The backcountry is much too large and spread out to be policed effectively. There is no possible way to ensure that any regulations would be followed or enforced. Some people whine about the cost of search and rescue for the taxpayers, but you obviously haven't put any thought into what it would cost to police the entire BC backcountry.

Venturing into the backcountry by any means carries with it a certain amount of inherent risk. There is no question about the fact that the backcountry can be a dangerous place. Last winter a group of cross country skiers managed to have an even more deadly experience than what happened this past weekend, and earlier this year a man and his son's friend died while skiing out of bounds. So far no one is calling for regulation of these activities, and that is because no amount of regulation would have saved these people. Much like the fact that there are still deaths on our highways despite the fact that we have many laws and regulations pertaining to automotive travel.

Education, experience, and preparedness are the factors that allow backcountry enthusiasts to safely enjoy their sport. I can tell you that within the snowmobiling community, there is already excellent involvement with education and preparedness. The swift rescue effort by the people on Turbo Mountain that day, and the presence of all the necessary safety equipment is a testament to how well educated and prepared the majority of riders are. There was much more potential for much more tragedy, but these peoples actions most definitely saved the lives of countless others.

However, there is still the question of, "why did this happen", and "why did these people not heed the warnings". For one thing, I was not there that day, so I am not going to tell you what was wrong. I was not personally there to assess the conditions and make a judgement call. What I can tell you is that when an avalanche warning is issued, it is NOT a death sentence for anyone that sets foot in the backcountry. Despite general unstable snow conditions, people can quite safely venture into the alpine and enjoy areas that are not steep enough to slide, or areas that are deemed stable after a snow assessment has been performed. Many factors affect snow stability and that stability can be different from one slope to the next. If the riders on the mountain assessed the terrain and decided to ride it, that is their choice and they are responsible for their own actions. Riders must adhere to some basic backcountry rules, such as one rider on a slope at a time, avoid terrain traps, and stay out of the path of potential slide run-outs. These basics can be taught in the classroom, but mountain experience is where these concepts really sink in.

Mountain experience is possibly the one area of safety that can use some improvement and it will always be that way. No one can ever possibly know all that there is to know about the mountains. There is always something more to learn. Also, big mountain snowmobiling is still a relatively young sport, and the its not even certain if the limits have been achieved yet. Riders from 10 years ago would never have dreamed about where the sleds of today are capable of going. New territory means new potential hazards. That also goes for familiarity of terrain. The more experience a person has in one area, the more familiar they will be with the potential hazards. I don't mean to point any fingers, but if you look at most backcountry incidents, no matter what the sport, they often (but certainly not always) involve people that are not from BC, do not live in mountainous areas, and do not get the experience that would help them make the best decision possible for a given set of circumstances. Couple that with the excitement of being on vacation and being in new exciting terrain, and with friends... It becomes easy for one to have his judgement become clouded.

And for those of you looking for someone to blame for all of this, here are few facts that the media has be misinforming you all about thus far: The activities that were happening at the time of this incident were not a part of the Big Iron Shootout. This was a group of people out riding and gathering on their own, in a completely different part of the mountains. The day's races were already over, and the event organizer was not even present when this happened. These people were at this location on their own accord, and made their own decisions to park where they did, and climb the mountain where they did.

In conclusion, it is this sledder's opinion that sports such as snowmobiling, skiing, snowboarding, surfing, mountain biking, horse riding, and etc. comes down to the participants personal risk assessment and level of risk tolerance. The appeal is the ability to exercise the freedom of choice. To have regulations imposed on participants would be a violation of free will. That fact does not sit well with me, and and it is unfair to have any any decisions made about regulation without the consent of the people that actively pursue the sports in question. Any talks and decisions made about the future of our sport must include the BC Snowmobile Association and its members, and not the uninformed media whiners and politicians.
 
Dude, your really ignoranant & im not afraid to discuss it....My wife in her FJ was struck head on during a snow strom by a woman who works for the sheriffs department. The woman was driving a chevy 1500 pickup who wasn't in 4 wheel drive, plus she was also cited for speeding when she struck my wife. Does that explain it IGNORANT......So now explain to me what that has to do with the revy avalanche ?

OT

OK, some of this is getting really low!!

O.T. ..... I am sorry for your loss...:face-icon-small-sad
 
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