Who's to Blame for Revy Avlanche?

[columbus]

I believe the legal term is act of god. It is no ones fault, we can be thankful, that enough people there seemed to know what to do in this situation, and how to help others out, I am sorry to hear of the two that lost their lives, but happy there was no more. RIP. Someday, I hope to get out your way, and try mountain riding. JT

For F$%ks sake, this was NOT AN ACT OF GOD!!!!! These people were ignorant and irresponsible, all 200 of them, and people got killed because of it. There, I came out and said it. They broke every rule in the book and they are lucky the carnage wasnt worse. Sorry if I offend anyone who was personally affected by this but this act of god/mother natures fault crap has got to stop.

Its so freakin basic-1 person exposed to danger at a time!! Its not rocket science. Before you ride in avalanche terrain you need to understand the basics, take an avy course AND read Snow Sense by Jill Fredston and Doug Fesler. go ahead, flame away...

 

[Transporter]

When I said mother nature is to blame I mean she created the slide conditions and I dont blame two people on the hill the same time for setting it off. I think when it was ready to go it let go.

 

[glassman]

If you are the cause of an automobile "accident" you can still be charged for undue care and attention. This simply means you failed to follow the rules set forth when you get behind the wheel, and you are accountable. The same thing applies for snowmobiling, if you break the rules be prepared for consequences. It is your responsibility to know the rules before you get on the highway, ignorance is no excuse.
This was no "act of god" it was man made. Mother nature didnt make those guys ride up that hill without assesing the situation. "Heros" don't put other peoples lives in danger, they simply help others without concern for their own well being.
That being said, this "accident" will hopefully open the eyes of many, and educate people on how dangerous backcountry snowmobiling is without proper knowledge.

 

[Little Eddy]

I think that trying to blame anyone for this tragedy is a waste of time and effort . what is it going to change?? Instead we all need to look closely at what we can learn from this. There are lessons to be learned here and they have been paid for with the ultimate price. If we cannot learn from this, the price paid will be wasted. So stop beating the "who's to blame" bush and lets all learn from this. (I doubt that there is anyone here, no mater how experianced, that can't learn something from this that may help save a life in a future situation .
I would also like to applaud the outstanding efforts of all those who helped with finding and rescuing the survivors the avalanche, without their efforts this would surely have been a much greater disaster. It takes far more courage to rise up from the midst of an event of this magnitude and put aside our own fears and emotion ( and in some cases physical pain ) than most of us can ever imagine .

 

[mramerica]

For F$%ks sake, this was NOT AN ACT OF GOD!!!!! These people were ignorant and irresponsible, all 200 of them, and people got killed because of it. There, I came out and said it. They broke every rule in the book and they are lucky the carnage wasnt worse. Sorry if I offend anyone who was personally affected by this but this act of god/mother natures fault crap has got to stop.

Its so freakin basic-1 person exposed to danger at a time!! Its not rocket science. Before you ride in avalanche terrain you need to understand the basics, take an avy course AND read Snow Sense by Jill Fredston and Doug Fesler. go ahead, flame away...

I am not saying that god reached down, and caused an avalanche, Im saying that is the legal term for when an incident such as this occurs.

I keep reading so and so is to blame, everyone there, knew the conditions, or at least had the chance to find out what conditions where. it was some people having fun, and some people watching, thats it. JT

 

[columbus]

When I said mother nature is to blame I mean she created the slide conditions and I dont blame two people on the hill the same time for setting it off. I think when it was ready to go it let go.

Read Snow Sense, learn something about travel in avalanche terrain, and you will realize what an idiotic statement that was.

 

[valerie]

revy avalanche.

I think the whole event should have never taken place, conditions were terrible. avalanche center issued warnings that people ignored. I also believe the event organizer should be held accountable(OZONE) you know you did wrong by leading those people out there, your the one who had control to avoid that area or have taken steps (like checking conditions)and telling them it wasnt safe. In most cases if someone leads others will follow, alot of innocent people followed you thinking it was ok. as for the rest who did know better, I hope you learned a little something. If you have not ( stay out of the back country until you do)

 

[Fireman35]

REAL sad situation for all of them. Breaking the rules people get hurt and some times killed in this case.. Sad for all of us. thoughts with all involved.

 

[PowderProject]

Instead of asking who is to blame couldn't we look at what was done wrong & figure out how to teach people not to do it anymore??


We could call people stupid & careless if that makes folks feel better!!?!

I just keep seeing us going from "don't blame anybody, nobody is at fault here" fer F's sake, you sound like the socialists that you all despise, to "who can we nail to the cross" which admittedly does sound more like the typical sledder mentality, but doesn't accomplish S**T.

First off I suggest we implement a gut shot rule for anyone who marks above a stuck buddy (with tek vest off of course), if someone high marks above me when I'm stuck, they're lucky to just get one shot to the gut.

Second I suggest we implement a don't be a f'in moron & sit in the path of a slide rule. the punishment from that is pretty obvious.


how bout work on fixing instead of yapping about blame. talk to your stupid friends, educate them or shoot them, one way or the other, it's better for us all.

Great post's backcountryislife. Here is a bit of info for everyone to live by when the go into the backcountry. PLEASE if you do anything read all this great information.

Here is a great thing for all to remember:
95% of all avalanches occur when 3 or more of these things are present.
ALPTRUTH

A: Avalanches

Look for avalanche activity in the last 48 hours. Notice the aspects, elevations, and size. Avoid similar slopes.
L: Loading

Look for loading of new or wind-blown snow that has occurred over the last 48 hours.
P: Path

Are you in an obvious avalanche path?
T: Terrain Trap

Are you in a terrain trap like a gully or underneath a steep slope? If an avalanche were to occur, would you get carried into a gully, into trees, or off a cliff?
R: Rating

Is the avalanche rating considerable (natural avalanches are possible and human triggered avalanche likely) or higher?
U: Unstable Snow

Listen for whoomphing sounds and look for cracking, which are tell-tale signs of unstable snow.
Th: Thawing

Has there been a rapid rise in temperature or a prolonged thaw of the snowpack?

FACETS


FACETS is a bit more abstract than ALP TRUTh, but it is just as important. Be mindful of this acronym to mitigate human risks. FACETS helps you get ego, emotions, and the dreaded group-think in check.

F: Familiar Terrain

“Don’t worry. I was here yesterday.” People take more risks in terrain they’re familiar with. Don’t let familiarity fool you. Conditions change minute-to-minute, so treat all terrain like it’s the first time you’ve seen it.
A: Acceptance

Consciously or unconsciously, we try to win over approval from our friends and peers. Pushing on because you don’t want to sound like a worrywart, not speaking up because you don’t want to go against the grain, even though things don’t feel right—these are examples of Acceptance.
C: Commitment

“I’m gonna ski that line/reach the summit even if it kills me.” It might. When we have an overwhelming commitment to a goal or belief, we tend to block out our better judgment and focus on the things that will help us achieve our goal.
E: Expert halo

The person who takes the lead might not always know best. “Oh, he’s been here before and has a lot more experience than I do. It’s probably fine.” Be mindful of these thoughts, and speak up if you’re having them. Chances are someone else in the group is having them, too.
T: Tracks

Everyone loves fresh tracks. When there are multiple parties out to poach a limited number of lines, we tend to take more risks. We want that snow for ourselves. Pay attention to that desire, but don’t give in to it when things are sketchy. Also: existing tracks give a false sense of security. Just because someone skied it doesn’t mean it’s safe.
S: Social Proof

This is the herding instinct or group-think. We like to go with the flow when we’re with groups. It’s easier to step into a dicey traverse when three others have gone before you. Speaking up is one of the hardest things to do. Remember to always assess the situation as if you were traveling alone—even when you’re in a group of “experts.”

PLEASE READ THIS EVERYONE!!!!

 

[Flange]

When I said mother nature is to blame I mean she created the slide conditions and I dont blame two people on the hill the same time for setting it off. I think when it was ready to go it let go.

With all do respect, please go get educated on the subject before you make comments like this, and more importantly, before you go riding again.

 

[teamti]

No disrespect to the OP but this is a terrible premise for a thread. It's done. Two people are dead. Wives are widows. Kids are orphans. Horrible. Blame solves nothing.

but I have to chime in here despite my better judgment.

@chub & @ mramerica. I think people are reacting badly when you both said "Act of God" and "Act of Nature" because this implies that this tragedy could have happened to anyone; that it was just a pure random occurrence that came out of the blue. It wasn't. That slope was prime to slide. It was forecasted to slide - add multiple people to it and it slid. And the slide killed two people and by a miracle didn't kill hundreds of people below. "Act of God" and "Act of Nature" are imo simplistic. Those are loaded terms that totally abdicate responsibility for what triggered this slide -> ie multiple people highmarking the slope (see Mike Augare's account) - btw Mike it took a lot of balls to post your account and be so forthcoming and props to you for that.

As to why its good to look at our own behaviour. Well I think polemite.productions & allmotor hit the nail on the head. Become educated, make your own decisions, live (& die) with your own decisions & accept the consequences of your decisions. I think this introspection by the sled community will spur people to be come educated. Hopefully it will make them think a lot harder about their own particular appetite for risk & learn how to deal with that risk

@columbus. I understand why you're frustrated but when teaching people about avalanche/glacier travel I've found that yelling at them doesn't really help them learn. Again, I know why you're feeling that way.

@transporter. That slope might have gone naturally but when putting 3 or 4 500 pound + sleds (not even counting the weight of the rider) on that slope almost certainly (I'm talking 99.99% sure) helped that slope go. Just to rebut what you said, there were many other NE/N/NW slopes in the vicinity that didn't avalanche even though they received the same snowload, & in the same elevation. I'm talking about slopes as close as Frisby. FYI studies have shown that a high-marking sled can impact snow (ie possibly trigger an avalanche) with the same force of a 1 ton cornice. Do you know how big a 1 ton cornice is?

Anyway I've typed too much and no-one will read all of it. If you have any other good Productive (not the OT Bar & Grill fecal drippings) thoughts to share please visit the 100 Things We Can Do To Be Safe.thread - http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=212066

 

[WKR]

everyones done it!

how many of you have hopped in a vehicle with a buddy or a buddies buddy who you knew had to much to drink, but still chose to catch a ride??? think about that for a second... now how many of you would blame the driver if he crashed??? you knew the risks and still jumped in. Seems kinda like the same thing. This sort of thing happens thousands of times a week. how would this situation differ? just curious...for ever finger you point there are 3 pointing back at you. If anything comes from this, it should be frequent and affordable snowmobiling avy education.

 

[Scott]

Ingredients for recipe of an avlanche:
(Western Montana Avalanche Center)

1) slope

2) snow load

3) trigger (both types: natural or human caused)

An avalanche CANNOT occur without all 3 of them. What was the trigger at Revy?
Human? Gravity? Lack of friction between layers?

 

[Going West]

I think the whole event should have never taken place, conditions were terrible. avalanche center issued warnings that people ignored. I also believe the event organizer should be held accountable(OZONE) you know you did wrong by leading those people out there, your the one who had control to avoid that area or have taken steps (like checking conditions)and telling them it wasnt safe. In most cases if someone leads others will follow, alot of innocent people followed you thinking it was ok. as for the rest who did know better, I hope you learned a little something. If you have not ( stay out of the back country until you do)

You really have to get your facts straight before you start running your mouth.

The event for the day was over. It ended in the bull pen and then everyone went and rode on their own for the remainder of the day. Ozone was not even at turbo hill when it happened as it was not part of that days activities.

There are many things to be learn't from this tragic event and a lot of poor decisions were made. But trying to find one person to blame everything on is not what's needed right now.

 

[joz]

I think the whole event should have never taken place, conditions were terrible. avalanche center issued warnings that people ignored. I also believe the event organizer should be held accountable(OZONE) you know you did wrong by leading those people out there, your the one who had control to avoid that area or have taken steps (like checking conditions)and telling them it wasnt safe. In most cases if someone leads others will follow, alot of innocent people followed you thinking it was ok. as for the rest who did know better, I hope you learned a little something. If you have not ( stay out of the back country until you do)

I think the "media" may have gotten to your head a wee bit there, womans I dont know if you've spent half the time on the hills that any of us have... And I'm just 18 myself.

The thread went 99% in the direction it SHOULD have gone. There is no person to blame, especially Dave.

No single person puts this bad boy together; its a group of some of the best back country riders coming together as the season ends to have a fun ride... its not a bunch of ignorant goofs (like you so think)... There's families out there, young men, like we saw on the news.

It blows my mind how you figure Ozone is somehow the cause of this. He wasn't in the damn area at the time. Were you? Was your husband? son? If ozone lead hundreds and hundreds of people back, then so did whoever was behind him, and behind that person, etc. Its a "do so at your own risk" and thats been said before.


Pound salt, and turn the tv off of CTV. You're going to learn alot more about the situation by looking at forums such as these, as long as we stay level headed and dont throw blame around!

Oh.... Desperate Housewives, and Grey's Anatomy and... House, and Survivor are on

 

[columbus]

No disrespect to the OP but this is a terrible premise for a thread. It's done. Two people are dead. Wives are widows. Kids are orphans. Horrible. Blame solves nothing.

but I have to chime in here despite my better judgment.

@chub & @ mramerica. I think people are reacting badly when you both said "Act of God" and "Act of Nature" because this implies that this tragedy could have happened to anyone; that it was just a pure random occurrence that came out of the blue. It wasn't. That slope was prime to slide. It was forecasted to slide - add multiple people to it and it slid. And the slide killed two people and by a miracle didn't kill hundreds of people below. "Act of God" and "Act of Nature" are imo simplistic. Those are loaded terms that totally abdicate responsibility for what triggered this slide -> ie multiple people highmarking the slope (see Mike Augare's account) - btw Mike it took a lot of balls to post your account and be so forthcoming and props to you for that.

As to why its good to look at our own behaviour. Well I think polemite.productions & allmotor hit the nail on the head. Become educated, make your own decisions, live (& die) with your own decisions & accept the consequences of your decisions. I think this introspection by the sled community will spur people to be come educated. Hopefully it will make them think a lot harder about their own particular appetite for risk & learn how to deal with that risk

@columbus. I understand why you're frustrated but when teaching people about avalanche/glacier travel I've found that yelling at them doesn't really help them learn. Again, I know why you're feeling that way.

@transporter. That slope might have gone naturally but when putting 3 or 4 500 pound + sleds (not even counting the weight of the rider) on that slope almost certainly (I'm talking 99.99% sure) helped that slope go. Just to rebut what you said, there were many other NE/N/NW slopes in the vicinity that didn't avalanche even though they received the same snowload, & in the same elevation. I'm talking about slopes as close as Frisby. FYI studies have shown that a high-marking sled can impact snow (ie possibly trigger an avalanche) with the same force of a 1 ton cornice. Do you know how big a 1 ton cornice is?

Anyway I've typed too much and no-one will read all of it. If you have any other good Productive (not the OT Bar & Grill fecal drippings) thoughts to share please visit the 100 Things We Can Do To Be Safe.thread - http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=212066

Sometimes you gotta be harsh to get an important point across, being nice sure hasnt been too effective judging by current events.

 

[lovemytoys]

The blame game Bulls##t

Every person that was at Turbo shares in the blame not just O-zone! I was there, I got buried, friends got buried and injured. Please pay your respects to the families left behind, loved ones were lost. Many more lives were saved by the heroic efforts of the searchers, first aiders on site, even the injured. I talked to a guy who broke his leg and still managed to help someone buried, he said he seen a hand sticking out of the snow, crawled over to them and cleared the snow away so they could breath, called for shovellers, saved their life. Where are these stories of heroism in the media? Most media is calling us (sledheads) ignorant, irresponsible, negligent, reckless risk-taking rednecks. Why can't they get it straight, we have a passion for our sport, risk or no-risk. This goes for surfers, skydivers, motocrossers, skiers, snowboarders( back-country or on a ski hill ), race car drivers, do I need to list more adreniline fueled sports. Some people participate in these sports to get away from the daily grind, relax, and enjoy the outdoors. Everyday we assume risk upon ourselves, just driving to Revelstoke I entered avalanche country, that's what the 8 foot yellow sign stated. I'm sure others seen it to? This gathering of people was not a planned event, it's friends coming together to ride. It started out as a handfull of people who in turn invited there friends out to ride. Now we as sledders need to stand together this is BS. All I hear is non-sanctioned event who do we hold liable. NO ONE we were all there Leave O-Zone alone he didn't lead any of us to Turbo, the group that was involved in the slide arrived there on their own discression, myself included. The politicians should stay out of trying to govern this sport, all they want to do is tax the sh** out of us. Sledders take pride in there machines and do not intentionally try to wreck them or cause harm to others, we're a big family that enjoys this sport. I hope others agree with me in supporting O-zone. Stand together, unite and fight for our rights & freedom.


Our prayers go out to Shay and Kurtis's families we're sorry for your loss. Please remember them for the men they are, their children should know how great they were. They will be missed.

 

[BEERWALKER]

I think the whole event should have never taken place, conditions were terrible. avalanche center issued warnings that people ignored. I also believe the event organizer should be held accountable(OZONE) you know you did wrong by leading those people out there, your the one who had control to avoid that area or have taken steps (like checking conditions)and telling them it wasnt safe. In most cases if someone leads others will follow, alot of innocent people followed you thinking it was ok. as for the rest who did know better, I hope you learned a little something. If you have not ( stay out of the back country until you do)

ozone wasnt even there when it happend dumbchit!!! he never told anyone to go there either!! get ur story straight lady

 

[ElectroTech]

While it sure would have been nice to see 199 rescuers and one person being rescued thats not what happened. You had 200 people involved in a pretty big slide, from the accounts I have read almost everyone had the equipment required to rescue or be rescued. 10 years ago this would not have been the case. Education is working, its a slow and painful process but as is human nature there is never perfection just the aspiration for it. I think its phenomenal that the hive mentality that put the people in this position also helped in this case. Alot of us viewed from afar, rumours of 40 lost werent that hard to believe given the magnitude of this avy, then low and behold between luck, education and perseverance 2 fatalities and 30 reported injuries, all the life saving was done by the time S&R arrived, it was done by people who were "prepared" for something to happen, even though many had made poor "risk assesments" and were in the wrong place at the right time.
RIP to Shay and Curtis and good riding in the future to the 30 injured!

 

[EZmoney]

For F$%ks sake, this was NOT AN ACT OF GOD!!!!! These people were ignorant and irresponsible, all 200 of them, and people got killed because of it. There, I came out and said it. They broke every rule in the book and they are lucky the carnage wasnt worse. Sorry if I offend anyone who was personally affected by this but this act of god/mother natures fault crap has got to stop.

Its so freakin basic-1 person exposed to danger at a time!! Its not rocket science. Before you ride in avalanche terrain you need to understand the basics, take an avy course AND read Snow Sense by Jill Fredston and Doug Fesler. go ahead, flame away...

Every one was not ignorant nor irresponsible they felt they where in a safe place. They, all 200 of them where not on the hill they where at the bottom watching people ride.Irresponsible would be with no avy training, no beacons, no shovels.And standing there after the fact asking for the phone number for 911. Because thats what the media and people like you are making every one out to be.A bunch of ignorant reckless extreme back country snowmobilers. Not the case.Ive taken the avy courses to, read books and been riding for twenty years.Does that make me a expert? Not close. I to would have parked where they did and felt safe.I guess that makes me ignorant?