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shortstop20
Well-known member
^^^^
Exactly.
Exactly.
TRA settups...attn clutch guru's
- Thread starter winter brew
- Start date
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tollen77
Member
Force is not generated by the RPM alone. Its the speed that the roller actually is traveling. Linear speed. RPM AND distance away from centerline. radius of swing if you will.
That needed repeating.
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Huh 
You guys are way to advanced for me but doesn't this "Not being able to hold rpm's in the pow sound like a secondary problem?" Changing clicker's is just a bandaid.
This is not from a guy who knows much about clutching.
I am more confused now than I was before.
Thanks,
Mutt
You guys are way to advanced for me but doesn't this "Not being able to hold rpm's in the pow sound like a secondary problem?" Changing clicker's is just a bandaid. This is not from a guy who knows much about clutching.
I am more confused now than I was before.
Thanks,
Mutt
This is not from a guy who knows much about clutching.
I am more confused now than I was before.
Thanks,
Mutt
I acctuallly think that in alot of cases, this is true. But, most peeps do clickers, and pin weight. Why? probibally because its a HECK of alot cheaper than buying new helix's?
Thats why everyone rides in clicker #3 and 4 at high altitudes with #5 being the highest. I noticed you failed to mention the Skidoo race manuel and whats in the manual for the most part works in the snow and that is what matters....Like i said before just so you don't think im contradicting myself. At high altitudes when your 800R drop off the peak rpm ( lets say 7900 when it should be 8100 which is common ) by clicking the TRA clicker UP you have effectively sqweezed the belt, regained rpm and track speed.
By the way any mountain rider clicking down there TRA clickers to regain rpm, belt pinch and trackspeed when at high altitude in deep snow ? Let me know if you click down during the above conditions.
For years guys like AAEN & Cutler and others have been trying to clutch there mountain sleds to run light preload through out the clutch in an effort to reduce friction/bind which turns into clutch heat. The trouble is running light loads /settings in the TRA does not work like it would in a Yamaha or Cat.
OT
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tollen77
Member
This is not from a guy who knows much about clutching.
I am more confused now than I was before.
Thanks,
Mutt
Yeah Mutt, you got it. Not holding RPM's in powder is a secondary problem most of the time. There is too much load being transferred from the track to the engine. That's why I said to decrease helix angle in one of the previous posts.
Clickers are a band-aid to this as they allow the primary to free-wheel a little and regain lost RPM, but they due so at the expense of full power transfer.
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tollen77
Member
OT, you're just not hearing what we're saying I guess. That's fine, though I'm gonna try one more time.
Can we agree that if you squeeze the belt more it should slip less?
And can we also agree that if the belt slips less then more load will be transfered from the track and so work the engine harder?
You can believe what you want about what clicking up or down does to belt squeeze, but we should at least agree on that.
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The TRA clickers is simpler to adjust out in the backcountry. Taking apart the TRA in woods to add or subtract pinweight to achieve correct rpm can be done.
OT
Huh?? What does this have to do with HELIX'S?
Do you type things just to hear the keyboard click?
My post was in reply to Mutt, asking if it's not more a Helix issue than weight, ramps etc. And probibaly in 90% of cases it is. BUT most people seem to only concentrate on the primary. they try this weight, that spring, Oh, lets through these ramps in....
Basically, If you Punch it and it rev's to target, then RPM falls, you probibaly could use less helix angle. It's Upshifting to much, or not backshifting enough.
You're right.....if you're tuning a very poorly set up clutching system. You shouldn't be slipping the belt AT ALL. If you are....then what you are saying is correct. If you have your set-up close, then you are not slipping the belt. As you gain altitude, you lose power and RPM....clicker up (yes...less belt squeeze...but you're also making less power...so it's a wash) get you RPM back by using a slower shift profile....away ya go.
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tollen77
Member
OT, everyone rides 3,4 or sometimes 5 because their engines are making less power due to the increase in altitude.
Put it this way: The secondary is gonna transfer the exact same amount of load to the primary whether you're at sea level or 10,000 ft. It doesn't care how thin the air is. But at elevation the engine doesn't have the power to move the same load it did down at the trailhead. People decrease the load from the belt to the engine by raising their clicker.
Some guys just like the way clicker 3 feels or clicker 4 feels or whatever. These smart guys compensate for decreased belt squeeze by adding weight to the arms. They want that higher clicker because they want the arm to close the clutch that little bit faster and so compensate for the lost pinch with more weight.
I'm not telling you to tune for clicker 1 anymore than I'm telling you to tune for clicker 5 or 6. Just realize that if you want a higher clicker you have to compensate for less clamping force with increased weight in the arms. Otherwise your losing a lot of performance to a slipping belt.
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"Can we agree that if you squeeze the belt more it should slip less"......
NO, You can sqweeze the belt to hard (try clicker#5) causing alot of TRA clutch heat and causing your belt to slip due to heat soak... Have you ever seen black belt marks on TRA primary sheaves ?
OT
That is just not true............many people trail ride at high altitudes and never have to adjust there clickers...Not until they jump off trail and and the deep snow suddenly reduces there rpm .
This has nothing to do with less power due to increase in altitude.
OT
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tollen77
Member
I agree completely DaveB.... for a set-up that is dialed in that is exactly what the clickers accomplish. But the load from the secondary doesn't change. So less belt pinch with the same load from the secondary equals a slipping belt.
Next ride you do, bring a infrared heat gun with you. Rip around the parking lot a little and up the trail a little and then stop and measure the temps of both the primary and the secondary.
The go up and ride around, change clickers if you like, whatever. Take the temp again and I'm sure you'll see the primary has increased more in temp than the secondary.
Ideally you can adjust the helix angle as you make less power. That's why I'm so excited to finally have a shockwave adjustable helix. Look forward to testing it this year... should make a big difference.
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tollen77
Member
Tolllen77, you a have been preaching the bennifts of running lower clicker# equals better pinch....And than you just stated that clicker#3 and #4 and even #5 is OK in high altitude.
Im sorry to break the news to you but i does not work both ways at high elevations in deep snow.
Ripping around the parking lot with a heat gun is wortless as well. Anytime the sled has been turned on and run if only just for a few minutes you will see an increase in temps.
OT
Im sorry to break the news to you but i does not work both ways at high elevations in deep snow.
Ripping around the parking lot with a heat gun is wortless as well. Anytime the sled has been turned on and run if only just for a few minutes you will see an increase in temps.
OT
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tollen77
Member
You're forgetting weight. If you have the same pin weight and the same RPM the flatter the ramp the more the pinch. You can create the same amount of pinch with a higher ramp angle (higher clicker) if you increase the weight in the clutch. If you raise the clicker without increasing the weight you will get less pinch.
It's science!!!
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OT...repeat after me. Higher clicker numbers apply LESS belt pressure. Lower clicker numbers squeeze the belt harder. Come on...just say it.
Dude....I rode my 01 for 3 seasons on the original belt, my 04 for two, my 05 1000 for two, and my 07 for two COMPLETE seasons of mountain riding on the original belts. I'm not going to start carrying a heat gun and tool around the parking lot. I got a handle on things....and the biggest part of it is to NOT OVER-THINK it. Once you are close with your clutching, the differences with the altitude don't really require a helix change. The small changes that are there (yes...your THEORY is ok) are not drastic enough to make the difference from holding, to greasing the belt.
Edit: want to know the best set-up? (And it's gonna choke you to know that Teton liked this set-up too....) My 01 with 156 and a STOCK 01 800 used the original Heelclickers (where you had to cut holes in the primary) and the button secondary with a Doo race helix 53/36.
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