TRA settups...attn clutch guru's

[tollen77]

So, when you raise clickers = less belt squeeze
raise clickers = Hotter clutch temps
Slipping belt = hotter clutch temps
Raising clickers = higher Engine RPM

Could we be safe to say that alot, atl east some, of the increased RPM we see from raising clickers is from the Belt Slipping?

Meaning, when we click up, Is the belt/secondary ACCTUALLY going faster even though the engine is spinning faster??

Raising clickers does all those things assuming it's under a heavy snow load. If there is a light snow load then the opposite occurs.

When under load (playing in the pow) clicking up will decrease the belt squeeze and so some of the increase you get in RPM is from the belt slipping. Certianly some of this increased RPM is actually being transferred to the belt so raising clickers to get RPM isn't entirely fruitless. But you're leaking power in the drive system. You need to decrease the load (via a different helix or using an adjustable helix) or increase the primary belt squeeze (through a flatter ramp or more weight) to achieve max efficiency.

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Something to remember when tuning is that approx. half of the HP provided by the engine is lost in the drivetrain. It's lost via friction in the track, the axle, the chain case, and the two clutches. Your 150 HP sled is only delivering approx. 75 HP to the ground. Gaining 5% in drivetrain efficiency is like gaining approx 10% in engine HP. That's like gaining 15 ponies!!!

At altitude, where you're losing a ton of power as the air thins, any gain in efficiency is even more important as you have less power to begin with.


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[Beauford t]

The belt wasn't slipping in the secondary Beauford, it was slipping in the primary. People, you gotta take a reading comprehension class. Slow down and try and understand what everyone on here is actually saying.


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slow down and try to understand what the clutch is doing not "what everyone is saying"
the peak power is at 8200rpm, this guys clutch still has enough squeeze (as you call it) to pull his rpm down to 8000rpm.

It is called shift force, too much= low rpm, to little= high rpm

 

[shortstop20]

Meaning, when we click up, Is the belt/secondary ACCTUALLY going faster even though the engine is spinning faster??

Not necessarily. Engine RPM is irrelevant concerning track speed. Lower RPM's can mean more track speed just as higher RPM's can mean lower track speed.

Say for example your sled is running 7800 RPM's, and your track speed is 50 MPH(just throwing out numbers here). Now you clicker up and you're getting 8000 RPM's and 45 MPH track speed. What's going on? Your belt pinch was good between the primary and secondary clutch before, when you clickered up you decreased the amount of belt pinch and force being exerted on the belt in the primary clutch, so the belt is now slipping in the primary clutch = lower or equal track speed(even though you're spinning more RPM's).

As tollen77 said, after you get the correct RPM you should probably try a different secondary setup to lessen the belt pinch being exerted by the secondary. Different helix, maybe a different secondary spring, or different ramps. All of the parts of a clutching setup are equally important.

 

[Original Tetonice]

The Doo race book put it like this......Think of the ramp as a hill that the roller must climb. A small (flatter) ramp profile can over come the hill easily thus providing a faster shift out to a higher ratio which will lower the engine rpm....If the hill is steeper (large ramp profile) the roller will not be able to climb a quickthus staying in a lower ratio longer ( mountain sleds) which will keep the engine RPM higher.....Clicking clicker down from #3 to #2 will flatten any ramp and change the shift character as well as decrease rpm every time you click down, assuming everything else in the clutch is working correct.

For those of you who think at high altitude you can drop your TRA clicker # down when your down on rpm and get better belt sqweeze and less slippage better patent your discovery.

OT

 

[Beauford t]

some people didn't know what a ***in ramp did before this thread, now they are experts?????

 

[shortstop20]

The Doo race book put it like this......Think of the ramp as a hill that the roller must climb. A small (flatter) ramp profile can over come the hill easily thus providing a faster shift out to a higher ratio which will lower the engine rpm....If the hill is steeper (large ramp profile) the roller will not be able to climb a quickthus staying in a lower ratio longer ( mountain sleds) which will keep the engine RPM higher.....Clicking clicker down from #3 to #2 will flatten any ramp and change the shift character as well as decrease rpm every time you click down, assuming everything else in the clutch is working correct.

For those of you who think at high altitude you can drop your TRA clicker # down when your down on rpm and get better belt sqweeze and less slippage better patent your discovery.

OT

You are contradicting yourself when compared to your last posts.

To the last part: AAEN, Culter, and tons of other clutching books and shops agree with what has been stated by others.

You will get better belt squeeze in the primary by lowering your clicker number, the lower numbers exert more belt pinch on the primary, plain and simple.

 

[tollen77]

slow down and try to understand what the clutch is doing not "what everyone is saying"
the peak power is at 8200rpm, this guys clutch still has enough squeeze (as you call it) to pull his rpm down to 8000rpm.

It is called shift force, too much= low rpm, to little= high rpm

Agreed Beauford, the primary does have enough belt squeeze to pull his RPM down to 8000. Doesn't mean that it's not slipping.

Shift force is belt squeeze. I use the term belt squeeze because it's self-explanitory. Shift force needs a definition for people to understand what you're saying.

Having a lot of belt squeeze will not lower RPM if there is very little snow load.

You want to maximize shift force in both clutches (to a point), and minimize slipping.


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[Original Tetonice]

Not necessarily. Engine RPM is irrelevant concerning track speed. Lower RPM's can mean more track speed just as higher RPM's can mean lower track speed.

Say for example your sled is running 7800 RPM's, and your track speed is 50 MPH(just throwing out numbers here). Now you clicker up and you're getting 8000 RPM's and 45 MPH track speed. What's going on? Your belt pinch was good between the primary and secondary clutch before, when you clickered up you decreased the amount of belt pinch and force being exerted on the belt in the primary clutch, so the belt is now slipping in the primary clutch = lower or equal track speed(even though you're spinning more RPM's).

As tollen77 said, after you get the correct RPM you should probably try a different secondary setup(steeper helix to speed the shift or possibly a softer secondary spring) to lessen the belt pinch being exerted by the secondary

Thats completely not true......At high altitude in deep snow the RPM can drop off as much as 200 rpm, by using the TRA clicker & clicking UP you effectivly sqweezed the belt harder which regains your lost rpm....Keep in mind the clutch/engine are design to operate at peak rpm which for the 800R can be between 8000 and 8150 since every motor is not pefectly the same at peak rpm......

By design the TRA clickers where design to click UP in the event you need the belt pinch to maintain peak rpm. If you think about it the engineers at BRP didn't design the TRA clickers to click DOWN....In the mountains and in deep snow everyone who experiances a lose of rpm's clicks up for regained rpm and belt sqweeze....Any mountain riders out there clicking there TRA clickers DOWN in the deep snow when they need rpm and trackspeed please chim in....

OT

 

[shortstop20]

You are wrong. You can't increase belt pinch by clickering up.

Simple example here. Heavier weights load the motor more, pinch the belt more, and DECREASE RPM(or sometimes even keep it the same), not increase it.

Now I suppose you're going to tell me lighter weights load the motor more.

Winterbrew please correct me if I am wrong on my last couple of posts here. I firmly do not believe that I am.

 

[Beauford t]

Agreed Beauford, the primary does have enough belt squeeze to pull his RPM down to 8000. Doesn't mean that it's not slipping.

Shift force is belt squeeze. I use the term belt squeeze because it's self-explanitory. Shift force needs a definition for people to understand what you're saying.

Having a lot of belt squeeze will not lower RPM if there is very little snow load.

You want to maximize shift force in both clutches (to a point), and minimize slipping.


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that second last line is just nutz??????

 

[Beauford t]

lighter weights can produce more shift force when spun at higher rpm

 

[tollen77]

some people didn't know what a ***in ramp did before this thread, now they are experts?????

Beauford, this isn't personal. I started a ramp thread to get the conversation rolling regarding changes in ramp profiles. Here's the thread Tell me where it says that I didn't know what a ramp did?

If I'm wrong about something, by all means correct me. If you're argument makes sense, I'll certianly admit it.

There is still a ton to learn regarding clutching, and I am by no means an expert. But I'm here to talk about clutching, not to get mad and throw insults because I don't have anything constructive to say.


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[Beauford t]

thats where the more sqweeze comes from

 

[shortstop20]

lighter weights can produce more shift force when spun at higher rpm

Well of course they can when you're comparing at two different RPM's. But the fact of the matter is, #5 does not make more belt pinch than #3 assuming the same RPM.

 

[tollen77]

Thats completely not true......At high altitude in deep snow the RPM can drop off as much as 200 rpm, by using the TRA clicker & clicking UP you effectivly sqweezed the belt harder which regains your lost rpm....Keep in mind the clutch/engine are design to operate at peak rpm which for the 800R can be between 8000 and 8150 since every motor is not pefectly the same at peak rpm......

By design the TRA clickers where design to click UP in the event you need the belt pinch to maintain peak rpm. If you think about it the engineers at BRP didn't design the TRA clickers to click DOWN....In the mountains and in deep snow everyone who experiances a lose of rpm's clicks up for regained rpm and belt sqweeze....Any mountain riders out there clicking there TRA clickers DOWN in the deep snow when they need rpm and trackspeed please chim in....

OT

OT; squeezing the belt harder in your primary increases the load on your engine right? How is increasing the load on your engine going to make your engine spin faster???



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[Beauford t]

Beauford, this isn't personal. I started a ramp thread to get the conversation rolling regarding changes in ramp profiles. Here's the thread Tell me where it says that I didn't know what a ramp did?

If I'm wrong about something, by all means correct me. If you're argument makes sense, I'll certianly admit it.

There is still a ton to learn regarding clutching, and I am by no means an expert. But I'm here to talk about clutching, not to get mad and throw insults because I don't have anything constructive to say.


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your right good thread lets not ruin it with insults

 

[shortstop20]

OT; how is increasing the load on your engine by squeezing the belt harder in your primary going to make your engine spin faster???

LMFAO.....that's what I'd like to know.

 

[Beauford t]

I think what he means is this

clicking up on number will hold the weight closer to center

that will let the motor rev higher

the higher rpm will create the added squeeze and power to the secondary and to the track

 

[banditpowdercoat]

Thats completely not true......At high altitude in deep snow the RPM can drop off as much as 200 rpm, by using the TRA clicker & clicking UP you effectivly sqweezed the belt harder which regains your lost rpm....Keep in mind the clutch/engine are design to operate at peak rpm which for the 800R can be between 8000 and 8150 since every motor is not pefectly the same at peak rpm......

By design the TRA clickers where design to click UP in the event you need the belt pinch to maintain peak rpm. If you think about it the engineers at BRP didn't design the TRA clickers to click DOWN....In the mountains and in deep snow everyone who experiances a lose of rpm's clicks up for regained rpm and belt sqweeze....Any mountain riders out there clicking there TRA clickers DOWN in the deep snow when they need rpm and trackspeed please chim in....

OT

and
How can clicking UP if you say it squeezes the belt HARDER, apply more grip, A better connection to the Track, if you will. How can this INCREASE RPM? If your slipping the belt allready, then not all the HP is going to the belt. Now, your loosing RPM, because the engine does not have enough power to drive whatever load that IS getting to the belt. How can increasing that load, which is allready dragging the engine now, increase the load and magically the engine gains RPM? If such is the case, you my friend have just found an illusive form of FREE ENERGY

 

[banditpowdercoat]

I think what he means is this

clicking up on number will hold the weight closer to center

that will let the motor rev higher

the higher rpm will create the added squeeze and power to the secondary and to the track

But the gain in ramp angle and POSSIBLE belt squeeze is not completely offset by the increase in RPM.

Sure, clicking up increases the ramp angle. Go back to the Racing manual. The ramp angle is like pushing a cart over a wedge. The steeper the wedge, the more force needed to get the cart up. Now, increasing the ramp angle puts the rollers closer to centerline. Yes, the RPM is increased, BUT, does the force now generated by the rollers spinning faster(RPM), although closer to the centerline equal more force than before? Force is not generated by the RPM alone. Its the speed that the roller acctually is traveling. Linear speed. RPM AND distance away from centerline. radius of swing if you will