TRA settups...attn clutch guru's

[winter brew]

Lets 1st of all understand how your clickers function. From clicker setting #1 to #5 for each click you increase 100rpm at high altitudes lower elevations might see as high as 200 rpm...For each click of the clicker UP 2 to 5 you have effectively moved the ramp(s) which inturn put more force on the roller/arm assembly and slighty slows the shift character which inturn because of the added force/load between the ramp profile/roller increases rpm.....When you click down from #5 to #1 you have effectively decreased the force on the ramp/roller which shows on the rpm by a 100rpm decrease in rpm for each click down #5 to #1. Confused ????..Thats what to much DooTalk will do to you. LOL....And than we have the secondary and since it's toque sensing how it factors into the picture

May The FORCE Be With You

Simplest thing alot of you need to do is buy a skidoo race manuel part # 484200084 it explains the function(s) pretty clearly.

Skidoo motors run there best when there "under load" with weight and force from the TRA. Take the weigh and the force of the TRA away and the results is in consistant rpm and slow track speed.

OT

Got it backward bud.

 

[tollen77]

Lets 1st of all understand how your clickers function. From clicker setting #1 to #5 for each click you increase 100rpm at high altitudes lower elevations might see as high as 200 rpm...For each click of the clicker UP 2 to 5 you have effectively moved the ramp(s) which inturn put more force on the roller/arm assembly and slighty slows the shift character which inturn because of the added force/load between the ramp profile/roller increases rpm....When you click down from #5 to #1 you have effectively decreased the force on the ramp/roller which shows on the rpm by a 100rpm decrease in rpm for each click down #5 to #1. Confused ????..Thats what to much DooTalk will do to you. LOL....And than we have the secondary and since it's toque sensing how it factors into the picture

May The FORCE Be With You

Simplest thing alot of you need to do is buy a skidoo race manuel part # 484200084 it explains the function(s) pretty clearly.

Skidoo motors run there best when there "under load" with weight and force from the TRA. Take the weigh and the force of the TRA away and the results is in consistant rpm and slow track speed.

OT

Sorry OT, I thought you just made a typo. This is from Dynamoe^Joe's website.

Clutching IQ section

Clutching Principle
Clickers changes TRA ramp angle. Determines how quickly the engine will rev/accelerate.
Clicker 6 raises ramp angle to highest point - Quickest engine response
clicker 1 lowers ramp angle to lowerst point - Slowest engine response

*Need engine to respond quicker = raise clicker
OR
Need the tra lever to push less hard/less aggressive = raise clicker

*Need engine to respond slower = Lower clicker
OR
Need the tra lever to push harder/more aggressive = lower clicker


It's a confusing subject and a tough one to get your mind around... I spent an entire afternoon just staring at my primary with it apart on my lap trying to visualize how the arms and ramp worked together.

The flatter the ramp the more the arm can swing out to move the ramp (and sheave) a given distance. This means the arm has more leverage. More leverage for the arm=more force to the ramp=greater belt pinch.

So the primary will shift slower but will apply more force to the belt with a lower clicker - all other things being equal. Raise the clicker and the sheave closes faster though the arms now have less leverage and apply less force to the belt.


Higher clicker=sheave closes faster but with less force(pinch).

Lower clicker=sheave closes slower but with more force(pinch).


How this pertains to engine load is a different thing all together.

In deep powder or when climbing a hill a high clicker transfers less load to the engine (since the belt typically will slip in the primary due to less pinch). This isn't a good thing as increased friction will lead excessive heat and decreased performance.

If there is less load transfered from the secondary to the primary (riding on a packed trail as opposed to through fresh powder) the extra belt pinch isn't required to keep the belt from slipping and a higher clicker actually transfers more load to the engine (the effective gear ratio of the sled is increasing faster than with a lower clicker) . Think of it as the drive gear on your ten speed. The bigger the gear on your pedals, the harder you had to work to pedal.

Adjusting clickers changes load in two ways. Flatter ramps (through a lower clicker) transfers more load to the engine through a decrease in the belt slipping (more pinch). But it does not apply as much load to the engine in another way as the drive sprocket stays smaller for longer.

Raise clickers and you pinch the belt less (this may cause belt slippage in an high load situation) and therefore decrease the load to the engine through slippage. But raising the clicker also increases the size of the sprocket faster (sheave closes faster) which increases the load transferred to the engine.


The key to all of this is balancing everything. It's the most important thing you can do for performance. Balance the load between the primary and the secondary and the rest is easy.

The trouble XP owner's are having with clutching comes entirely from an imbalance in load between the two clutches. And it's not an easy fix since the problem differs for every sled in every situation based on riding conditions. Add in a peaky engine and you multiply the problem.

Basically it comes to this: If you want to get the most out of your sled, you'll need to adjust for the conditions.



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[tollen77]

Some of you guys need to understand how it's a combinaton of the weight and centrifigul force that pinches the belt in the primary as well....The forums spend alot of time talking about pinweight 10g, 12g, 14g, when the bigger picture might come as a surprise to som....The 3 TRA ramps, & TRA 3 arm/roller assembly (no pinweight added) weigh over 300g's +/-.....Bottom Line folks it takes weight and force to sqweeze the belt for high altitude deep snow riding.

OT

No doubt weight makes a difference as well - probably the biggest difference. But it's tough to adjust weight up on the hill.

"Bottom Line folks it takes weight and force to sqweeze the belt for high altitude deep snow riding."

I'd add that it takes weight AND leverage to create the force required to squeeze the belt in any given condition!


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[tollen77]

The trouble XP owner's are having with clutching comes entirely from an imbalance in load between the two clutches. And it's not an easy fix since the problem differs for every sled in every situation based on riding conditions. Add in a peaky engine and you multiply the problem.

Basically it comes to this: If you want to get the most out of your sled, you'll need to adjust for the conditions.

IMO, if you want to ride more and tune less, find ways to broaden the power curve of the 800R... even if that comes at the expense of peak power. That alone will make tuning way easier.



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[Original Tetonice]

Thats the trouble with websites from guys who Do Not have much seat of the pants experiance at high elevations. As as the website author states.

Bottom Line, In deep snow or climbing in deep when your rpm falls off the power curve. Do you click up or click down ?.....In nearly every case your going to click up to regain lost rpm and apply more force to sqweeze the belt better....The reason your clicking up is because your belt is slipping causing a lose in rpm/trackspeed.

Next time you guys are in deep snow and your not able to reach the sleds peak rpm click your clicker down and get back to me if you think you have regained your rpm becuase you think your sqweezing the belt better by clicking down instead of clicking your clickers up.

Some guys should spend less time staring at there open clutch and more time riding so they know what is really happening.

OT

 

[tollen77]

Thats the trouble with websites from guys who Do Not have much seat of the pants experiance at high elevations.

Example: In deep snow or climbing in deep when your rpm falls off the power curve. Do you click up or click down ?.....In nearly every case your going to click up to regain lost rpm and apply more force to sqweeze the belt better....The reason your clicking up is because your belt is slipping causing a lose in rpm/trackspeed.

Next time you guys are in deep snow and your not able to reach the sleds peak rpm click your clicker down and get back to me if you think you have regained your rpm becuase you think your sqweezing the belt better by clicking down instead of clicking your clickers up.

OT

OT; you've got it exactly backwards here. I'm saying that if you can't get to RPM at elevation clicking up is the thing to do.... though you the only reason you get your RPM is because there is less load on the engine due to a slipping belt.

"Thats the trouble with websites from guys who Do Not have much seat of the pants experiance at high elevations."

I'm just going to ignore that.

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"click up to regain lost rpm and apply more force to sqweeze the belt better...."

OK, so your engine can't get to RPM because it doesn't have enough strength to get there. Your asnwer is to squeeze the belt harder and load the engine more???? If clicking up loaded the engine more then you would see a further decrease in RPM since the engine is having to work harder. In this case, because of high snow load, clicking up decreases the load on the primary since it allows the belt to slip a little more which reduces engine load. Less engine load allows the engine to rev higher.

More to the point, you're acting like getting the proper RPM is everything... what I'm saying is getting to RPM is only effective if you transfer that RPM through both clutches to the track.

While you're on the hill, if you aren't getting to RPM then you have no choice but to click up. But your gaining RPM at the expense of slippage in the primary. If you were to take a heat gun and measure the temps of your clutches, your primary would be way hotter than your secondary. Way hotter! But when you get back home you're gonna need to change things to get your sled running more efficiently.


If, on the other hand, you have a way to adjust the load from the secondary to the primary you're laughing. Dial your helix down (flatter angle) so it transfers less load to the primary and I doubt you have to change the primary at all.


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[banditpowdercoat]

Thats the trouble with websites from guys who Do Not have much seat of the pants experiance at high elevations. As as the website author states.

Bottom Line, In deep snow or climbing in deep when your rpm falls off the power curve. Do you click up or click down ?.....In nearly every case your going to click up to regain lost rpm and apply more force to sqweeze the belt better....The reason your clicking up is because your belt is slipping causing a lose in rpm/trackspeed.

Next time you guys are in deep snow and your not able to reach the sleds peak rpm click your clicker down and get back to me if you think you have regained your rpm becuase you think your sqweezing the belt better by clicking down instead of clicking your clickers up.

Some guys should spend less time staring at there open clutch and more time riding so they know what is really happening.

OT

Are you sure, the belt is slipping????
Could it not be that the load has become to great for the engine, BUT, the secondary has NOT backshifted enough to keep the engine at target RPM's?

One would have to think, if the belt was slipping, you would gain RPM's Ever get your clutch wet in the middle of a pull? What happens to engine RPM?

BTW, OT, U comes after a Q in the English language for written words, not a W Squeeze Sorry, been buggin me

 

[winter brew]

Clicking down (lower number) flattens the ramp profile....which allows the weight to be farther from the center of rotation.....which means it will exert MORE force.....which will push the sheaves together harder....which raises the belt higher in the sheaves....which increases the load and drops engine RPM. Someone needs to start doing their own clutching

 

[tollen77]

Clicking down (lower number) flattens the ramp profile....which allows the weight to be farther from the center of rotation.....which means it will exert MORE force.....which will push the sheaves together harder....which raises the belt higher in the sheaves....which increases the load and drops engine RPM. Someone needs to start doing their own clutching

Much better explanation. Thanks Winter Brew.

 

[redbarchetta]

I will have to witness that clicking your clickers up will create more clutch heat. From the factory the clickers on my x was at 1 and everybody on snowest was saying that there clutches were getting really hot on the new x's. Well i kept stopping after a hard pull and opened side panel and the clutches were just warm you could hold hand on them easily. Now i was only able to get 7500 rpm out of clicker 1 so i raised to clicker 4 this last sunday, and i was running at 8000 rpm. After a hard pull through drifts i decided to check the temp of clutches and holy cow was there a really big difference i could not hold my hand on the primary clutch very hot. So i really don't know why raising clickers raises the clutch temp but i must say it does and by quite a bit.

 

[shortstop20]

Clicking down (lower number) flattens the ramp profile....which allows the weight to be farther from the center of rotation.....which means it will exert MORE force.....which will push the sheaves together harder....which raises the belt higher in the sheaves....which increases the load and drops engine RPM. Someone needs to start doing their own clutching

for you winter brew.

What he is trying to say conflicts with almost every reputable source out there when it comes to clutching.

 

[tollen77]

I will have to witness that clicking your clickers up will create more clutch heat. From the factory the clickers on my x was at 1 and everybody on snowest was saying that there clutches were getting really hot on the new x's. Well i kept stopping after a hard pull and opened side panel and the clutches were just warm you could hold hand on them easily. Now i was only able to get 7500 rpm out of clicker 1 so i raised to clicker 4 this last sunday, and i was running at 8000 rpm. After a hard pull through drifts i decided to check the temp of clutches and holy cow was there a really big difference i could not hold my hand on the primary clutch very hot. So i really don't know why raising clickers raises the clutch temp but i must say it does and by quite a bit.

Raising clickers decreases belt squeeze which causes the belt to slip. Slipping belt = heat due to friction.


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[banditpowdercoat]

And when you clicker down, your lessening the ramp angle. So less angle, the easier it is for the roller to move UP this angle. The more the roller moves away from the clutch centerline, the more centri***al force it has, correct?? More force, Pushes even harder on the ramp.

All in all, clicking DOWN, the clutch tries to make the belt ride Higher in the primary, given same RPM/Load conditions

Clicking down (lower number) flattens the ramp profile....which allows the weight to be farther from the center of rotation.....which means it will exert MORE force.....which will push the sheaves together harder....which raises the belt higher in the sheaves....which increases the load and drops engine RPM. Someone needs to start doing their own clutching

Is there an echo in here HAHAHA. Atleast WERE on the same page

 

[YamaDoo PolCat]

Clicking down (lower number) flattens the ramp profile....which allows the weight to be farther from the center of rotation.....which means it will exert MORE force.....which will push the sheaves together harder....which raises the belt higher in the sheaves....which increases the load and drops engine RPM. Someone needs to start doing their own clutching

Awesome explanation!

Now if I could just convince you to come over to the dark side .... Then maybe you could explain why the Polar only has one choice of spring and ramp, and doesn't have all those adjustments. I haven't had to even adjust weights in 6,000 ft of elevation change in a day ride. The Polar clutch brings the best out of the Rotax motor, but why? How come the Polar clutch doesn't need the "TRA Clutch Bible" and a bag full of excuses and parts for a day ride?

I mean when you read your explanation of how the TRA should work, I almost think the TRA should work, in theory. So for you the Polar should be easy to explain why it actually does work.

Come to the Darkside Luke!

 

[banditpowdercoat]

I will have to witness that clicking your clickers up will create more clutch heat. From the factory the clickers on my x was at 1 and everybody on snowest was saying that there clutches were getting really hot on the new x's. Well i kept stopping after a hard pull and opened side panel and the clutches were just warm you could hold hand on them easily. Now i was only able to get 7500 rpm out of clicker 1 so i raised to clicker 4 this last sunday, and i was running at 8000 rpm. After a hard pull through drifts i decided to check the temp of clutches and holy cow was there a really big difference i could not hold my hand on the primary clutch very hot. So i really don't know why raising clickers raises the clutch temp but i must say it does and by quite a bit.

So, when you raise clickers = less belt squeeze
raise clickers = Hotter clutch temps
Slipping belt = hotter clutch temps
Raising clickers = higher Engine RPM

Could we be safe to say that alot, atleast some, of the increased RPM we see from raising clickers is from the Belt Slipping?

Meaning, when we click up, Is the belt/secondary ACCTUALLY going faster even though the engine is spinning faster??

 

[banditpowdercoat]

Awesome explanation!

Now if I could just convince you to come over to the dark side .... Then maybe you could explain why the Polar only has one choice of spring and ramp, and doesn't have all those adjustments. I haven't had to even adjust weights in 6,000 ft of elevation change in a day ride. The Polar clutch brings the best out of the Rotax motor, but why? How come the Polar clutch doesn't need the "TRA Clutch Bible" and a bag full of excuses and parts for a day ride?

I mean when you read your explanation of how the TRA should work, I almost think the TRA should work, in theory. So for you the Polar should be easy to explain why it actually does work.

Come to the Darkside Luke!

Im sure though, YDPC, that IF you DID change ramps in the Polar, would it not impart a different characteristic with the different ramps?

Maybe the TRA is just TOO adjustable. Giving us to much stuff to fiddle with, getting everything all out of whack?

And you convince my wife to loosen her purse strings, I'd try out the dark side LMAO

 

[Beauford t]

Raising clickers decreases belt squeeze which causes the belt to slip. Slipping belt = heat due to friction.


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wrong..
never made enough power to slip the secondary at 7500rpm
But at 8000 the motor had the power to work the clutches and cause sliping in the secondary..imo

 

[tollen77]

wrong..
never made enough power to slip the secondary at 7500rpm
But at 8000 the motor had the power to work the clutches and cause sliping in the secondary..imo

The belt wasn't slipping in the secondary Beauford, it was slipping in the primary. People, you gotta take a reading comprehension class. Slow down and try and understand what everyone on here is actually saying.


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[tollen77]

Awesome explanation!

Now if I could just convince you to come over to the dark side .... Then maybe you could explain why the Polar only has one choice of spring and ramp, and doesn't have all those adjustments. I haven't had to even adjust weights in 6,000 ft of elevation change in a day ride. The Polar clutch brings the best out of the Rotax motor, but why? How come the Polar clutch doesn't need the "TRA Clutch Bible" and a bag full of excuses and parts for a day ride?

I mean when you read your explanation of how the TRA should work, I almost think the TRA should work, in theory. So for you the Polar should be easy to explain why it actually does work.

Come to the Darkside Luke!

YDPC; You're giving up adjustability in the polar (no ramps, no springs) compared tot he TRA are you not? Or is there a mechanism in the clutch that adjusts for different riding conditions? (snow load, incline, engine power changes due to elevation changes, rider weight)


If there is no mechanism to adjust the clutch then you're leaving something on the table. Take a heat gun out the next time you go riding and let me know what the temperature of each clutch is. Try it again under different snow conditions. You're leaving power on the table.

The problem isn't the clutch, it's understanding the clutch.


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[shortstop20]

If your sled can hold the same RPM with that big of elevation changes you are definitely leaving something on the table. Check your belt temps at different elevations as said. I bet your sled has the "zingers" at the lower elevations.