TRA settups...attn clutch guru's

[fatguy1]

Hey Guys I gotta jump in here!

Everyone is making some good points, but I want to clarify something here. OT has quoted the race manual a couple times and is correct about the whole roller/hill thing. BUT here is what the 09 book states."the steeper the hill the roller must overcome, the higher the RPM will be before the clutch shifts out." The steeper ramp makes the engine rev higher (because of that steep angle, more RPM is needed to create the FORCE needed to overcome that angle and have the primary shift out) Now at this point the pinch or squeeze is less than at the lower angle. This does not always mean that the belt is now sliping.

OT, engine RPM will drop because of more load on the track (thus more load on the engine) when leaving the trail and jumping into the powder, But altitude does effect the engines horsepower also. You will have less HP at 9000' than 3000' (unless you run a turbo or supercharger.)

Look at a dyno sheet, notice how they always state the corrected Horsepower. Thats corrected for sea level, there is a standard out there that all these dyno guys take into account based on humidity, temperature, and barometric pressure which is most affected by altitude.

I hope this hepls close the gap for a couple guys.

 

[Original Tetonice]

You're forgetting weight. If you have the same pin weight and the same RPM the flatter the ramp the more the pinch. You can create the same amount of pinch with a higher ramp angle (higher clicker) if you increase the weight in the clutch. If you raise the clicker without increasing the weight you will get less pinch.

It's science!!!




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You can tune the TRA to run in clicker #1 if you know how.....Force plus weight = rpm/trackspeed in deep mountain snow.....Hey just curious if by clicking my clicker UP which some of you claim increases rpm but slows trackspeed.....Explain to me why my XP 800 and others setup like it at 9000 feet kick the snot out of Cat M8 and Poo800...Adding a 19 top gear slow trackspeed.


It's an Art !!!

OT

 

[tollen77]

Dude....I rode my 01 for 3 seasons on the original belt, my 04 for two, my 05 1000 for two, and my 07 for two COMPLETE seasons of mountain riding on the original belts. I'm not going to start carrying a heat gun and tool around the parking lot. I got a handle on things....and the biggest part of it is to NOT OVER-THINK it. Once you are close with your clutching, the differences with the altitude don't really require a helix change. The small changes that are there (yes...your THEORY is ok) are not drastic enough to make the difference from holding, to greasing the belt.

Edit: want to know the best set-up? (And it's gonna choke you to know that Teton liked this set-up too....) My 01 with 156 and a STOCK 01 800 used the original Heelclickers (where you had to cut holes in the primary) and the button secondary with a Doo race helix 53/36.

Thanks for the tips DaveB. I'll keep that in mind next time I'm on my '01. Don't want to carry a heat gun up the hill, no prob... but you're leaving performance on the table.

 

[tollen77]

You can tune the TRA to run in clicker #1 if you know how.....Force plus weight = rpm/trackspeed in deep mountain snow.....Hey just curious if by clicking my clicker UP which some of you claim increases rpm but slows trackspeed.....Explain to me why my XP 800 and others setup like it at 9000 feet kick the snot out of Cat M8 and Poo800...Adding a 19 top gear slow trackspeed.


It's an Art !!!

OT

Force plus weight = rpm/trackspeed in deep mountain snow


Newton must be rolling over in his grave. Force = mass x acceleration


Mass = arm mass

Acceleration = the change in linear velocity of the tip of the arm as it moves along the ramp.

You're hung up on RPM man... though the second half of your equation (RPM/trackspeed) probably gives you some kind of rudimentry calculation for power loss through the drivetrain.


Might be on to something there.



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[Original Tetonice]

Thanks for the tips DaveB. I'll keep that in mind next time I'm on my '01. Don't want to carry a heat gun up the hill, no prob... but you're leaving performance on the table.

I don't think my XP and other similar setups are leaving performance on the table when at 9000' running deep deep snow my XP8 is pounding the snot out of the Cat8 and Poo8 in similar conditions and setup for deep snow....

OT

 

[DaveB]

Thanks for the tips DaveB. I'll keep that in mind next time I'm on my '01. Don't want to carry a heat gun up the hill, no prob... but you're leaving performance on the table.

Those aren't tips.....and I'm not worried about my clutching performance. I've just learned long ago not to devulge any of it on here.

 

[Original Tetonice]

Force plus weight = rpm/trackspeed in deep mountain snow


Newton must be rolling over in his grave. Force = mass x acceleration


Mass = arm mass

Acceleration = the change in linear velocity of the tip of the arm as it moves along the ramp.

You're hung up on RPM man... though the second half of your equation (RPM/trackspeed) probably gives you some kind of rudimentry calculation for power loss through the drivetrain.


Might be on to something there.



.

.

"Force = x acceleration"....Last i checked when i accelerated my rpm went UP and i went faster due to more trackspeed.

And your right Newton would be rooling over.... Mass = Arm Mass, you clearly were not a student..... If your refering to the arm mas as in the TRA arm/roller it only makes up approx 35 grams each x 3 arms = 105 grams total arm mass....The ramps on the other hand weigh approx. 63 grams each x 3 ramps = 189 grams. Once you add the pinweight as i mentioned in a previous post the TRA requires over 300 gs total to run efficiant enough to pinch the belt in deep high elevation snow.

 

[tollen77]

"Force = x acceleration"....Last i checked when i accelerated my rpm went UP and i went faster due to more trackspeed.

And your right Newton would be rooling over.... Mass = Arm Mass, you clearly were not a student..... If your refering to the arm mas as in the TRA arm/roller it only makes up approx 35 grams each x 3 arms = 105 grams total arm mass....The ramps on the other hand weigh approx. 63 grams each x 3 ramps = 189 grams. Once you add the pinweight as i mentioned in a previous post the TRA requires over 300 gs total to run efficiant in deep high elevaion snow.

OK, now you've really lost me OT. This time I really give up. I feel stupid for allowing myself to be sucked back in to this conversation. My mistake.

 

[DARKO]

My heat gun doesnt fit in my back pack, can I just take my track Dyno up in the mountains to tune ? LOL

 

[tollen77]

My heat gun doesnt fit in my back pack, can I just take my track Dyno up in the mountains to tune ? LOL

Darko, how small is your back pack? A heat gun is smaller than a label maker. You can even get them the size of a pen light.

 

[bonecracker]

must have an avy bag. hard to pack a couple of rubbers for the bar after riding in one of those things let alone a heat gun. seems it may fit a track dyno?

maybe the track dyno gets strapped on the back of the sled?

 

[Beauford t]

But the gain in ramp angle and POSSIBLE belt squeeze is not completely offset by the increase in RPM.

so..rpm increases, track speed increases, hmm

trackspeed starts with shift force at the primary(the only thing we changed at this time) , I dont think i can pick up track speed with less shift force can I......

 

[banditpowdercoat]

That is just not true............many people trail ride at high altitudes and never have to adjust there clickers...Not until they jump off trail and and the deep snow suddenly reduces there rpm .

This has nothing to do with less power due to increase in altitude.

OT

If they are a Trail Rider, and loosing RPM when jumping off trail DUHHH Thats going to happen. The Helix is not imparting a strong enough signal to backshift. It was probibally chosen to allow great TRAIL riding. Not Pow.

Too many people want ALL things. Can't be set up to excell in one area, and expenct it to excell equally in all other areas.

Do you buy a Ferrari, and expect it to be able to tackle the Rubicon?

 

[banditpowdercoat]

But the gain in ramp angle and POSSIBLE belt squeeze is not completely offset by the increase in RPM.

so..rpm increases, track speed increases, hmm

trackspeed starts with shift force at the primary(the only thing we changed at this time) , I dont think i can pick up track speed with less shift force can I......

I never said more track speed with less shift force

Was meaning that even though you clicked Up, which in turn made a steeper ramp angle, and the roller is now closer to the clutch centerline. But, Just because the RPM increased, the roller to cluch centerline DECREASES. so, the force can remain the same, OR, may even be Less.

 

[banditpowdercoat]

You're forgetting weight. If you have the same pin weight and the same RPM the flatter the ramp the more the pinch. You can create the same amount of pinch with a higher ramp angle (higher clicker) if you increase the weight in the clutch. If you raise the clicker without increasing the weight you will get less pinch.

It's science!!!




.

Acctually, it's Grade 11 Physics. Inertia, Momentum and Force

But your rigth, and whos paying attention anyways

 

[shortstop20]

Force plus weight = rpm/trackspeed in deep mountain snow.....Hey just curious if by clicking my clicker UP which some of you claim increases rpm but slows trackspeed.....Explain to me why my XP 800 and others setup like it at 9000 feet kick the snot out of Cat M8 and Poo800...Adding a 19 top gear slow trackspeed.
OT

I never said in increasing RPM decreased track speed, I simply answered a question that someone asked and gave an example where track speed would be reduced even though RPM was increased. You are trying to turn my one example into a generalization. If you are happy just knowing your sled hits 8000-8100 RPM's than more power to ya. The fact of the matter is, if your belt squeeze is correct but the RPM's are too low and you clicker up to raise RPM's you are losing belt squeeze at the same RPM as compared to before with the lower clicker number. You are making it sound like higher RPM indefinitely equals more track speed, which could not be farther from the truth. Please tell me what a M8 and RMK 800 have to do with this conversation?

Dynamo^Joe would have a hayday with you if he caught wind of this.

 

[banditpowdercoat]

"Force = x acceleration"....Last i checked when i accelerated my rpm went UP and i went faster due to more trackspeed.

And your right Newton would be rooling over.... Mass = Arm Mass, you clearly were not a student..... If your refering to the arm mas as in the TRA arm/roller it only makes up approx 35 grams each x 3 arms = 105 grams total arm mass....The ramps on the other hand weigh approx. 63 grams each x 3 ramps = 189 grams. Once you add the pinweight as i mentioned in a previous post the TRA requires over 300 gs total to run efficiant enough to pinch the belt in deep high elevation snow.

WHY are you adding the RAMPS into the mass equasion? The ramps could weigh 100Lbs each, It DOESNT MATTER. They are not whats doing the work. They are FIXED and do not move. Its the Rollers that do the work, they Push on said ramps. Ramps just dictate how far said pinweight is away from clutch centerline. Do you even know what a TRA looks like? Sounds like you for it mixed up with a Comet?

 

[YamaDoo PolCat]

Im sure though, YDPC, that IF you DID change ramps in the Polar, would it not impart a different characteristic with the different ramps?

Maybe the TRA is just TOO adjustable. Giving us to much stuff to fiddle with, getting everything all out of whack?

And you convince my wife to loosen her purse strings, I'd try out the dark side LMAO

Got me there! Actually you can get different ramps for the Polar, but I never tried them. There would be a maket for that stuff on the ice or pavement, but I didn't see any need to fiddle around with the clutch. The whole point of buying the Polar is so you don't have to fiddle with the bloody clutch everytime you go out.

If I wanted to fiddle with heat, belts and rpm I'd just stick with the TRA, but I don't. All I want is to ride, have some fun and enjoy the view from the top. The Polar just happens to do it better than the TRA, same principles though, if you can figuire them out....

Come on buy the clutch because remember women like their men to be happy, and have clean hands! Heehee!

 

[tollen77]

Got me there! Actually you can get different ramps for the Polar, but I never tried them. There would be a maket for that stuff on the ice or pavement, but I didn't see any need to fiddle around with the clutch. The whole point of buying the Polar is so you don't have to fiddle with the bloody clutch everytime you go out.

If I wanted to fiddle with heat, belts and rpm I'd just stick with the TRA, but I don't. All I want is to ride, have some fun and enjoy the view from the top. The Polar just happens to do it better than the TRA, same principles though, if you can figuire them out....

Come on buy the clutch because remember women like their men to be happy, and have clean hands! Heehee!

You know what YDPC, if you're looking to just ride, want to touch your sled as little as possible and are OK getting quite a bit, but not all, the power your engine makes to the track, then it seems like the polar clutch is a good choice.

For me, and this is a personal choice not something I'm recommending for everyone, I'd rather get to a bowl where I'll be playing for a while, make a run, adjust a little and then enjoy that little bit more power for the rest of the ride in that bowl. It's not for everyone, but part of the sport that I enjoy is tinkering with my sled.

I'm carefull not to tinker too much and never stop unless my riding buddies are stopping as well. For me, I just wanna make sure I get as much power as I can to the track in any given situation.

The ultimate answer is an electronic clutch I read about in SnowTech last year. Such a clutch would be able to automatically adjust belt squeeze in both the primary and secondary as well as the helix angle and ramp angle for any given condition. On the trail? Less pinch req'd so the clutch adjusts for that. Hop off into the pow? The clutch flattens the helix and pinches the belt a little harder. Gain some elevation? The clutch flattens the helix a little more and pinches the belt a little less. That will be the ultimate.



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[YamaDoo PolCat]

You know what YDPC, if you're looking to just ride, want to touch your sled as little as possible and are OK getting quite a bit, but not all, the power your engine makes to the track, then it seems like the polar clutch is a good choice.

For me, and this is a personal choice not something I'm recommending for everyone, I'd rather get to a bowl where I'll be playing for a while, make a run, adjust a little and then enjoy that little bit more power for the rest of the ride in that bowl. It's not for everyone, but part of the sport that I enjoy is tinkering with my sled.

I'm carefull not to tinker too much and never stop unless my riding buddies are stopping as well. For me, I just wanna make sure I get as much power as I can to the track in any given situation.

The ultimate answer is an electronic clutch I read about in SnowTech last year. Such a clutch would be able to automatically adjust belt squeeze in both the primary and secondary as well as the helix angle and ramp angle for any given condition. On the trail? Less pinch req'd so the clutch adjusts for that. Hop off into the pow? The clutch flattens the helix and pinches the belt a little harder. Gain some elevation? The clutch flattens the helix a little more and pinches the belt a little less. That will be the ultimate.



.

OOPS! You weren't keeping up there Tollen. The Polar transfers all the engine power all the time. It is amazing. I ride pretty much the same areas all the time, at the same times of year, in the same snow conditions, on the same sled and have ran the TRA, C109 and Polar clutches on the same sled. From those tests I found the Polar consistantly pulled better all the time. And I never blew a belt on the Polar.

I also ride with guys on Turbo Yamaha, Polaris 800/800, Arctic Cat 1000 and 06 and 08 REV800, so I also get to compare sled to sled as well. I have also test rode Dynamo Joe clutching on an 06 800. It was pretty good on the trail, sucked in the mountains as the elevation changes are just too large.

The big dog sled are interesting to ride with, but the Polar consistantly delivered better power to the track than the Polaris and REV sleds. Then on days when I had to run the TRA as I had busted the Polar, I would just be running as badly as everyone else, which seemed to make people happy for some reason. On days when I have the Polar bolted on they think I'm cheating and they get touchy. Bunch of grumps.

I am sure there must be times when the TRA is just as good, but the conditions and clutch settings have to be just perfect, and that situtation doesn't last more than a couple minites in the mountains we ride. The only thing I like to go under the hood for is the Hot Pot cooker or to put away the empty beverage cans.

The Polar is just one of those things that works great in practice, but how do you explain it in theory? Oh, and I only run the same stock Doo 07 secondary all the time.

I also had to look at that Swedish electric clutch and it is not a mountain clutch, it would react way too slow. Good enough for touring or pulling logs like in the video. It is needs time to think and activate some clutch control device, and that's too slow, the party is over before it started. By the time it catches up conditions have changed again. Just one of those things that has it's place, but not when it's time to Rock and Roll!