Too all those retarded mt. Riders

[Bacon]

If that were fact, then it might be due to being too comfortable for their own good.




I don't know if you are referring to mtn "riders" or the actual residents who live in the mtns...Cause I've seen plenty of flatlander's names in the paper at Cooke or other places who get killed or get buried because of a total disregard for avy safety.

You know what pisses me off....all the stories I hear about at Cooke City...and seen myself in fact, where people from NoDak, SoDak, MN, WI or MI get killed when they are breaking all of the rules on the hill.

Not saying that the others aren't doing stupid things too....

Mountain residents are hardly the main culprit.
I'd like to see stats on states where victims are from.
In places like Cooke, I'd bet the balance will tip in favor of the flatlanders.
I'm just sayin....

Rreeeaaalllyy, Then how come the last two people to die in Cooke have been from Montana. I ride Cooke way more than you and I see the dumb stuff all the time. To generalise that the flatlanders are the cause of all accidents doesn't hold water. Places like Crown Butte and Scotch Bonnet are death traps and I stay away from them. Yet I see people climbing these places all the time. I don't stop them to check where they are from, but I would bet it would be a mix of locations. Next time, don't be such a pompous a$$.

 

[Scott]

Rreeeaaalllyy, Then how come the last two people to die in Cooke have been from Montana. I ride Cooke way more than you and I see the dumb stuff all the time. To generalise that the flatlanders are the cause of all accidents doesn't hold water. Places like Crown Butte and Scotch Bonnet are death traps and I stay away from them. Yet I see people climbing these places all the time. I don't stop them to check where they are from, but I would bet it would be a mix of locations. Next time, don't be such a pompous a$$.

Waaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit a minute.

Where did I say that flatlanders cause all of the accidents? Where did I say it is all flatlanders? Where did I say it wasn't the mtn people causing problems? Where did I say that Montanans don't get in avy's?

Next time don't get all puckered up and defensive.
I've seen plenty of mountain people make the same mistakes that flatlanders do.
Stupid people live in both places and both come to ride the mtns.

 

[ruffryder]

first question

Waaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit a minute.
Where did I say that flatlanders cause all of the accidents? Where did I say it is all flatlanders?

kind of in the below..

...all the stories I hear about at Cooke City...and seen myself in fact, where people from NoDak, SoDak, MN, WI or MI get killed when they are breaking all of the rules on the hill.

In places like Cooke, I'd bet the balance will tip in favor of the flatlanders.
I'm just sayin....

next question

Where did I say it wasn't the mtn people causing problems? Where did I say that Montanans don't get in avy's?

kind of in the below..

Mountain residents are hardly the main culprit.

just trying to clarify. Can we get back to the issue at hand. The problem is a lack of respect / knowledge of the mountains and what they can do to you.

 

[DusterB]

I rode Cooke on Friday during HIGH avy conditions (The highest avy warning they have ever given in years) and it amazed me how many people were highmarking. Yes it's a common sight at Cooke but all over I saw tracks that made me shake my head... Really Shocking Stuff! Amazingly nothing let go. One can imagine all the marks on Saturday and Sunday.

It makes me mad to see riders who put their lives AND others at risk. Yes by riding during HIGH conditions I assume the risk associated but I'm always putting mine and fellow riders safety first ahead of my ego and throttle thumb.

 

[batgirl]

I think I am going to start taking pictures and posting them now, so these people will learn from their mistakes.

Instead of that, or coming on here & preaching to the choir....

Go over to the group (take a few breaths first!!) and explain to them how they are putting themselves & others at risk.
You'd be surprised how many of them will respond positively to a RATIONAL explanation of the dangers & some proper techniques.

Myself & my husband (backcountryislife) decided a couple years ago to stop *****ing about it to ourselves & make a point of talking to people about it. 99% of them have asked for more info & been honestly wanting to improve their habits. Quite a few of the people we have talked to we see out now & they have beacons & a few have even taken classes that we have suggested. They're also now people that we know are watching our back because we took the effort to watch theirs. (what comes around...)

You'll be surprised how positively people react if you take the effort to talk (not scream, it's hard) to them!

 

[Rowboat]

I completely agree with the first post...

Your only as strongest as your weakest link..

Know the experience of your fellow riders! Not only in av awareness, or first aid, but riding in general! Don't pressure someone to do something they're not comfortable doing... have a novice rider with you? Ride novice areas...

 

[POWDR]

Avy is just another risk us sledders take, and i take that risk all the time but i will never climb a hill untill it is clear of everyone else...if i get myself in an avy then so be it, but i dont want to get anyone else in it or get in one because of another person.

I fully understand what you are saying here. However, let's take it one step further. You say if you get yourself in an avy then so be it. I understand you are making the point that you will not endanger anyone except for yourself. Next time you knowingly endanger yourself think about this- If you are buried in a slide, there will be a rescue effort. Those involved in the rescue effort are now in danger. The level of danger depends on any number of things. A big variable is secondary slides. It has happened that rescuers have been buried by secondary slides. All too often people think that if a slope slid- that's it, it's done. This is not always the case and there are also adjacent slopes that could slide.

Not picking on you here, I just think a lot of people think this way and just want to throw this out there to look at it a different way.

I am just saying think it all through. Take the risk if it is right for you and all in your party. I am not saying don't take risks, just make them calculated.

 

[Scott]

I did not categorize anyone as the overbearing culprit.

Take my statements in general and don't use any of them out of context.

Ruffy, I made my post because I took the original as stating that the flatlanders are not causing the problems.
maybe because of the title:

Too all those retarded mt. Riders

 

[POWDR]

Instead of that, or coming on here & preaching to the choir....

Go over to the group (take a few breaths first!!) and explain to them how they are putting themselves & others at risk.
You'd be surprised how many of them will respond positively to a RATIONAL explanation of the dangers & some proper techniques.

Myself & my husband (backcountryislife) decided a couple years ago to stop *****ing about it to ourselves & make a point of talking to people about it. 99% of them have asked for more info & been honestly wanting to improve their habits. Quite a few of the people we have talked to we see out now & they have beacons & a few have even taken classes that we have suggested. They're also now people that we know are watching our back because we took the effort to watch theirs. (what comes around...)

You'll be surprised how positively people react if you take the effort to talk (not scream, it's hard) to them!

X2

 

[nuggetau]

Are there any statistics about how many snowmobilers are found alive each year exclusively due to beacons? By exclusively, I mean no surface visual cues where to look.

The next time you go riding try out this scenario and see if you still think a beacon will save your life in most situations. This is a best case scenario, most situations would be far more difficult and time consuming.

Have your most physically able rider go over to a small but steep incline in deep soft snow. Someone take out a watch and yell go! He removes his helmet, removes his probe from his pack/storage, removes his shovel and assembles it, then sprints uphill in the waist deep snow for at least 50', he then has to remove his beacon wander around in the deep snow for a couple minutes, then dig a hole(has to be at least 3' wide at the bottom to have a chance to find the guys head) down 5' as fast as he can in the 10 minutes you will likely have air to survive. My guess is that maybe 2% of the population could actually do this to save your life. Most people are too fat and out of shape to ever hope to save someone else's life in this situation, and most couldn't find their own arse with a beacon and probe.

Truth is if you are buried in an avalanche you will likely die, beacon or no beacon. Your chances of surviving increase if you have very physically fit riding buddies who know how to use their equipment to do the search FAST because they saw where you ended up and LOTS of people to dig.

Just try and dig a deep hole by yourself really fast, your lungs will be on fire!! That doesn't take into consideration all the time/effort you will expend locating your friend.

Avy reports, beacons and probes give the general public an erroneous sense of security. Common sense is 1000 times more valuable than all this "safety equipment"!

My whole point being, if you think having a beacon in most situations will save your life, I think you will die suffocating and thinking otherwise! Having a beacon is not a do something stupid and get out of jail free card!

I will leave with a question, was everyone a dumba$$ for riding in the mountains before the prevalence of beacons? Or, did people have to take responsibility for their behavior or suffer the consequences?

 

[Boondock St]

What a crock of sh&t

Ok cause we ride in the mountians we are retards ? First That term is offensive and your a looser for using it. Second I take all the safety measures available and use them Avy course, Snowpulse, Probe, Beacon, Shovel, Rino GPS. ect... To date in Canada we have 1 Avy victem and they were back country skiing off sleds. Congrats to all you MTN riders and here is to the continued safety level we are at. MTN rides remind you what it's like to truly be free something that's far to rare these days.
Suck that up butter cup. Stick to the flat land that's where you belong

 

[treeboy]

Ok cause we ride in the mountians we are retards ?

He is not saying that we all are tards, just those certain few that are putting others at risk. I see just what he's talking about cause I see this stuff happen too. I'd be upset too if someone near put a avalance on my friend or could have hit them than takes off. Some do not have any brains even if you try to tell them.

 

[Oregongirl]

I will leave with a question, was everyone a dumba$$ for riding in the mountains before the prevalence of beacons? Or, did people have to take responsibility for their behavior or suffer the consequences?

It's a process of evolution. As the technology of sleds improved, so has the knowledge and prevalence of avy safety. I can tell you that when ridingmy 85 Phazer I didn't get far off the trails - and if I did, it was a meadow - not hill climbing. Those on the long tracks (136") would climb on hero snow days.

This is a great thread BTW!!

In Oregon there were 4 reported avy's over NY weekend. FOUR! One rider was killed. This is notable, because avy's "never happen" in Oregon. In fact, there is NO, ZIP, ZERO forecasting south of Mt. Hood. I am here to tell you that trying to convince the every day sledder in Oregon about avy safety is an uphill battle. I cannot tell you how often we hear - oh, I never ride where avy's happen. Really?? That is simply NOT true - but we have talked until we were blue in the face and some of the peeps we ride with still won't purchase beacons or probes.

The rider that was killed was riding alone. A local guy. Probably ridden the area 1000 a more times. "it never happens here" Try to overcome that mentality. Talk about a hillclimb!! But we are still working on it. The lives of our fellow sledders, especially those who are our friends, are worth the effort........

 

[Rowboat]

 

[akjimmyb]

After reading this thread I'm glad I live in Alaska. I have a group of guys that I ride with and we seldome come across other riders. When we do we probably know them and don't have these problems. Stupid people are everywhere. I encounter more driving to the hill than any where. There are even some on this here thread. They're easy to spot. So stay awayfrom them. We all are guilty of doing stupid things and the way we learned was someone set us straight. You see someone endangering everyone else say something.

 

[nuggetau]

I have just been reading the statistical data for deaths on the web (Colorado Avalanche Information Center).

On average about 13 riders die every year(recent history) in the US. Considering there are probably several hundred thousand people riding in the western states, and taking maybe an average of 5 or more trips, that's pretty low odds of actually dieing in an avalanche compared to dieing in many other activities we do. More people drown in a group that size, or die in a car wreck, or slip and fall in the tub, or many other things.

I'm not discounting anyone's value(no one wants to be among the 13), but as activities goes, this simply isn't that dangerous, the statistics speak for themselves. That being said I intend to still show as much common sense as normal, and would recommend others do the same. But, if you are looking for dangerous activity to rant about there are too many other options out there that are far more deadly, and receive far less attention.

The really interesting statistic for me was that snowmobiling deaths due to avalanche went up dramatically starting about 1993 and remained there to present day. So Oregongirl you make a good point about evolving technology, the longer tracks, lighter sleds with more HP seem to be getting us into more trouble.

The statistics are very clear, maybe the real safety equipment is to add 50-80 lbs to your sled and put on a 121" track, then you will be pretty safe! Any of you safety zealots willing to do the "safe thing"? I'm betting not. Cheaper and easier to buy a beacon and tell yourself your safe now.

 

[Darkhorse]

Did the OP say he and a buddy were sitting on a lake? First off I have to question your judgement. I have been to very few mtn lakes that were actually frozen thick enough to be on at all. Most get a thin layer of ice then massive amounts of snow that just sort of "floats". There are stupid people everywhere be it on the flats or in the mountains. I have a select group I ride with, some of whom saved my life. I see people doing things they shouldn't all the time, its easy to fix... I stay away from them. It was nice years ago when only a few of us built sleds for the back country. Now days seems like everyone can go to a dealer and be an instant hero in the back country.

 

[EagleRiverDee]

Did the OP say he and a buddy were sitting on a lake? First off I have to question your judgement. I have been to very few mtn lakes that were actually frozen thick enough to be on at all. Most get a thin layer of ice then massive amounts of snow that just sort of "floats". There are stupid people everywhere be it on the flats or in the mountains. I have a select group I ride with, some of whom saved my life. I see people doing things they shouldn't all the time, its easy to fix... I stay away from them. It was nice years ago when only a few of us built sleds for the back country. Now days seems like everyone can go to a dealer and be an instant hero in the back country.

I'd say that depends on where you're at. In AK the lakes often freeze hard before we ever get any real snow to speak of. Many lakes are froze so thick you can (and do) use them for parking lots for the trucks and trailers. One nearby lake has a highway plowed into it because the locals access their homes by boat in the summer, and they use the lake to drive on during the winter.

Alaskan rivers, on the other hand...different story. No matter how early the freeze before the snow fell, rivers often seem to have open water even in the shallows. This winter we had a good solid early freeze and yet I've seen the rivers thaw a spot that was previously frozen despite consistent cold weather.

We never take the lakes for granted, but it's rare for anyone to punch through them except in early fall and during spring breakup, when common sense says you shouldn't be on the ice to begin with.

 

[SkiDoobyDoo]

Have your most physically able rider go over to a small but steep incline in deep soft snow. Someone take out a watch and yell go! He removes his helmet, removes his probe from his pack/storage, removes his shovel and assembles it, then sprints uphill in the waist deep snow for at least 50', he then has to remove his beacon wander around in the deep snow for a couple minutes, then dig a hole(has to be at least 3' wide at the bottom to have a chance to find the guys head) down 5' as fast as he can in the 10 minutes you will likely have air to survive. My guess is that maybe 2% of the population could actually do this to save your life. Most people are too fat and out of shape to ever hope to save someone else's life in this situation, and most couldn't find their own arse with a beacon and probe.

A note; a slide will be very hard snow/ice and easy to step on. However, much harder to dig through. (who has a plastic shovel?) Good drill idea. I'll suggest it to my team.

I will leave with a question, was everyone a dumba$$ for riding in the mountains before the prevalence of beacons? Or, did people have to take responsibility for their behavior or suffer the consequences?

We do live in the age of abdication of responsibility... sad.

 

[OuraySledder]

I'd say that depends on where you're at. In AK the lakes often freeze hard before we ever get any real snow to speak of. Many lakes are froze so thick you can (and do) use them for parking lots for the trucks and trailers. One nearby lake has a highway plowed into it because the locals access their homes by boat in the summer, and they use the lake to drive on during the winter.

Alaskan rivers, on the other hand...different story. No matter how early the freeze before the snow fell, rivers often seem to have open water even in the shallows. This winter we had a good solid early freeze and yet I've seen the rivers thaw a spot that was previously frozen despite consistent cold weather.

We never take the lakes for granted, but it's rare for anyone to punch through them except in early fall and during spring breakup, when common sense says you shouldn't be on the ice to begin with.

I would second that. The lakes in the Colorado high country typically freeze solid before there is any substantial snowfall. We only have riding areas above 10,000 ft. It gets plenty cold up there, plenty early.