Too all those retarded mt. Riders

[ruffryder]

It comes down to the fact that people that have avy training spend more time in that type of environment.....so the increased exposure increases their statistical rate of being in an avalanche.

Its not a education to death ratio. Maybe I over stated the die part and should have said caught in an avy...I'll have to do a quick search and see if I can find the link.

Ha ha, yes you did. Or maybe the causality part of it....

Kind of like saying people with mountain sleds are more likely to get in an avalanche then shorties... or people that ride during fresh powder days compared to spring time...

If that were fact, then it might be due to being too comfortable for their own good.

agreed. Interesting factoid was that most avalanche deaths occur when the avy warning is not high or extreme, but moderate. I guess we tend to equate moderate = slim chance.

As to the stupid riders, why not use the opportunity to teach them about he mountain, about avalanches and about safety. Talk about some experiences about you and your friends, people you know. Spread the safety word and help the snowmobile community. Some people just don't know.

 

[The Fourth Wolf]

Knowledge enables Mastery

Mastery begets Complacency

Complacency Kills



Ride smart, ride for life

 

[Chaos]

If you don't learn something new everyday, you wasted your day. Good discussion with points to be taken by all. Safety via education and sharing experiences (mentoring) is what insures a great day on the slopes. Grab a newbie and don't give up.

Good post for discussions sake MWV.

Safe riding...

Chaos

 

[ccoleman77]

This is a great thread. If it stays on topic and doesn't become a pizzing match between the western dwellers and the flatlanders some great ideas could come out of it. Post things you see that you think are dumb others may never have thought of them as dangerous. And yes we all take a risk. that being said every time I go out and ride I want to come home to see my family when the weekend is over. If it is my time to go then ok, but I will do everything I can to be prepared and not.

 

[V-Man]

Interesting factoid was that most avalanche deaths occur when the avy warning is not high or extreme, but moderate.

I always though most deaths were in considerable.

Did a little research.
http://www.avalanche.org/~nac/NAC/techPages/articles/06_ISSW_Greene_etal.pdf

Very interesting.....

"In all of the countries examined in this
study, most fatal accidents occur when the
avalanche danger is rated Considerable. This
peak is most pronounced in Switzerland.
The greatest increase in fatal accidents also
occurs between Moderate and Considerable in
Canada and France, but between Low and
Moderate in the U.S. and Switzerland. In
Switzerland, more people are killed at Low and
Moderate than High and Extreme. In the U.S.
most deaths occur during the middle three
danger levels (Moderate, Considerable and
High), with a relatively even distribution between
these three levels. In Canada and France most
fatal accidents occur during periods of
Considerable and High avalanche danger with
very few occurring at Low, Moderate or Extreme."

 

[ruffryder]

v-man, thanks for the clarification.

 

[0007]

The more educated you are on avalanches the more likely you are to die in one.........fact.

This is one of those reverse effect statistics
Like 100% of lottery winners bought tickets

Avid riders who ride in avalanche country get cought in avalanches
These avid riders usually take avy courses
Really serious sledheads spend more time in the snow and usually have taken more than one seminar
I seriously doubt training kills people, probably not many people take an avy seminar and then never go in the snow
Simply put, the more you ride, the more you expose yourself to risk

 

[polaris dude]

heh im curious. I ride mostly in the black hills and have never had to worry about avalanches(due to lack of large, open slopes and lack of large amounts of snow). But im wondering how you check the layers? As in what do you look for in them like hardness?

 

[XFIRE800]

heh im curious. I ride mostly in the black hills and have never had to worry about avalanches(due to lack of large, open slopes and lack of large amounts of snow). But im wondering how you check the layers? As in what do you look for in them like hardness?

I dont know the avy danger is pretty high in the hills especially along the highways Every once in a while a pebble falls down a slope and starts a slide that might be able to cover up a mouse.

 

[ruffryder]

I dont know the avy danger is pretty high in the hills especially along the highways Every once in a while a pebble falls down a slope and starts a slide that might be able to cover up a mouse.

You need to spend some time reading the avalanche writeups about situations that people where in when there was an avalanche. You don't need big mountains and big exposure to make it happen. Maybe a tight little creek, where your friend cuts through it, making a little slide that buries you at the bottom.

 

[mwv]

Lots of the time going out we are teaching someone about this stuff. Reading the terrain, its traps, diggin' pits and showing the layers in the snow, and good riding ethics, etc. But there always is one out there that thinks they know it all or think it will never happen to them.
I'm always learning everytime I go out and i've been playing in the backcountry for the last 18 years.
I may have came out a little hard, but if one person learns from this form and passes that thought to a friend than something is being done.

 

[Scott]

heh im curious. I ride mostly in the black hills and have never had to worry about avalanches(due to lack of large, open slopes and lack of large amounts of snow). But im wondering how you check the layers? As in what do you look for in them like hardness?

Common misconception.
Slides can happen anywhere the a trigger, slope and conditions allow.

Small terrain traps are often VERY deadly as people can't get out or discount their danger.

I've seen slides come down through many timbered slopes where people mistakenly thought the anchor points were enough to hold it down. It's got VERY little to do with holding a slab or slope in place.

 

[neverenoughsnow]

avy danger

I would like to hear more from everyone, about too many guys on a hill and highmarking someone stuck on a hill. I ride the snowies 95% of the time, and i see this all the time. I am really a nice guy but i am sick and tired of people highmarking a stuck rider, I swear i will smack the next one with my shovel....

 

[snowmobiler]

One of my friends get stuck, so we send one up to give him a hand and stops below him and walk the rest (being safe)

did you do the rock,paper,scissors,loser has to go?.LOL.

 

[aart]

did you do the rock,paper,scissors,loser has to go?.LOL.

no kidding i wouldn't want to be that guy!!!

 

[iliketoridefast]

back to the dissin on flatlanders.

maybe im taking this the wrong way. but i am from the flatlands and take offense to the flatland talk . i carry a shovel probe and beacon. i also have an ABS backpack for this year. Last year when i was in IP we did a lot of riding but we knew Jefferson had a HIGH avy danger by just talking to locals and checking the internet. We had a blast riding and knew of some select hills that slide a lot due to two of the riders in our group has been riding in IP for 20 years. On a Saturday at noon we were on a peak just across from JEfferson. Some guys were highmarking right on Jefferson on a huge chute, that funneled right down the whole hill. Within 10 minutes i watched a guy doing a highmark on it, and the whole thing slid right from the top. I could see the fracture without binoculars and i was a good 2 miles away, it must of been 10 feet deep. The man that was buried ended up losing his life (prayers for him and his family) we saw it on the 6 O'clock news. He was a LOCAL Island Park guy and 23 years of age, so he has been around the area for quite a few years and lived there his whole life. This is much too young for someone to pass away and i could not imagine what his family is going thru. But being from the flatlands does not make you a dumbarse when it comes to avy knowledge. theres my rant.

 

[Insaneboltrounder/sjohns]

The more educated you are on avalanches the more likely you are to die in one.........fact.

I think i know what youre saying... but you said it poorly. sj

 

[skibreeze]

I always though most deaths were in considerable.

Did a little research.
http://www.avalanche.org/~nac/NAC/techPages/articles/06_ISSW_Greene_etal.pdf

Very interesting.....

"In all of the countries examined in this
study, most fatal accidents occur when the
avalanche danger is rated Considerable. This
peak is most pronounced in Switzerland.
The greatest increase in fatal accidents also
occurs between Moderate and Considerable in
Canada and France, but between Low and
Moderate in the U.S. and Switzerland. In
Switzerland, more people are killed at Low and
Moderate than High and Extreme. In the U.S.
most deaths occur during the middle three
danger levels (Moderate, Considerable and
High), with a relatively even distribution between
these three levels. In Canada and France most
fatal accidents occur during periods of
Considerable and High avalanche danger with
very few occurring at Low, Moderate or Extreme."

The reason that most are triggered when the conditions are considerable is that the forcasts are seemingly left at considerable for extended periods of time. Seems every time I check the forcast for my favorite riding area is always considerable. Always, in fact, I just checked it and they state that the snowpack is pretty strong but....

 

[OuraySledder]

maybe im taking this the wrong way. but i am from the flatlands and take offense to the flatland talk . i carry a shovel probe and beacon. i also have an ABS backpack for this year. Last year when i was in IP we did a lot of riding but we knew Jefferson had a HIGH avy danger by just talking to locals and checking the internet. We had a blast riding and knew of some select hills that slide a lot due to two of the riders in our group has been riding in IP for 20 years. On a Saturday at noon we were on a peak just across from JEfferson. Some guys were highmarking right on Jefferson on a huge chute, that funneled right down the whole hill. Within 10 minutes i watched a guy doing a highmark on it, and the whole thing slid right from the top. I could see the fracture without binoculars and i was a good 2 miles away, it must of been 10 feet deep. The man that was buried ended up losing his life (prayers for him and his family) we saw it on the 6 O'clock news. He was a LOCAL Island Park guy and 23 years of age, so he has been around the area for quite a few years and lived there his whole life. This is much too young for someone to pass away and i could not imagine what his family is going thru. But being from the flatlands does not make you a dumbarse when it comes to avy knowledge. theres my rant.

I don't think anybody was calling you a dumbarse I am a native of MN, been living in SW CO for 6 years now. I used to make trips out west to ride. I really think it is different when you live here though. The biggest difference is that I know the local terrain much better than I ever could have being a visitor. I know what thye weather has been doing all winter, every winter. I also know that if the conditions are questionable I have options, options a visitor might not have. I can find another spot nearby, someplace most visitors would never find in most cases. I also know I can come back the next day or the next week and ride. I think visitors sometimes take chances when trying to squeeze as much fun as the can into a short vacation.

I think it is great you come prepared but lots of guys do not. I also think there isn't much substitute for experience. Living right in it gives you and advantage. That isn't to say that there are not people who take dumb risks from both camps. You definately see locals dying because they have greater exposure, as mentioned. I know that I can save the climbimg for another day, or next month, and go play in the trees or meadows for the day. Sometimes outsiders feel pressured to make bad choices. I think is part of the problem.

 

[snengineer]

The best thing about snow is that its always changing, this means ridiculous behavior like highmarking can be safe in the right snow conditions. With that said I have been in this situation before....It's just best to leave with stupid people around.