Too all those retarded mt. Riders

[Boondock St]

same for us

Up here the lakes are frozen. There are far to many riders who don't check the AVY reports before heading out, Ride in unsafe zones. No diffrent on the roadways get used to it you live in a biped ruled world so anything can happen anytime.

 

[Spur]

FACT:

I can ride from my house and be in serious avy country in less than 5 minutes. I pretty much ride with the same core group of guys. I am 48 and have been mountain riding since I was 5. We ride up to 5 times a week, but never less than twice. Nobody, and I mean nobody knows this area better than we do. I have bow hunted it since I was old enough to walk and I know every nook and cranny within a 50 mile radius. I have help find 7 guys buried in avy's in this area 3 were dead. I know how dangerous it can be. In 48 years neither I nor my buddies have ever been in a serious slide. We ride the area like we own it, and we go where we want when we want. We are gettin fricken tired of guys showing up and getting offended because we ride over or around them. Were not going to sit at the bottom of a hill and watch for 1/2 hours while a group of avy's fearing riders go one at a time up and out of an area. Were up there to ride. We decided a few years ago we had wasted our last minute of riding waiting and watching for you avy fearing riders to do your thing. You can take all your avy's classes and stick them up your nose. Will take our experience and knowledge of the area over your avy classes any day of the week. ( not that we have not been to several classes ) It's getting to the point that almost every ride we get approached by some tough guys ready to kick our @$$'s cause we ride dangerously and put everybody on the mountain at risk. Well, if you can't climb a chute stay the heck out of it, or at least turn out before you get stuck and if you get stuck don't get mad at us because we decide to blow passed you. If we thought we were putting you in danger we wouldn't do it. Every year it appears that most of you avy fearing rider are riding more for the social life than you are for the riding. I don't want to die in an avy, but good grief Charlie Brown, it's comes with the sport. It's getting to the point that nobody's riding, your all sitting around talking about riding and if we don't sit around and wait for you were @$$holes. Good grief. I'm glad I don't have to ride with that kind of fear everyday. Why do some of you even ride anymore? Your fear has got to be taken all the fun out of it. If you don't know the area and you want to be safe more power to you, but don't get offended if a group of guys blows past you while your evaluating the situation. Their experience and knowledge of the mountain may far out weight your experience and avy classes. I'm just sayin.

 

[tudizzle]

FACT:

I can ride from my house and be in serious avy country in less than 5 minutes. I pretty much ride with the same core group of guys. I am 48 and have been mountain riding since I was 5. We ride up to 5 times a week, but never less than twice. Nobody, and I mean nobody knows this area better than we do. I have bow hunted it since I was old enough to walk and I know every nook and cranny within a 50 mile radius. I have help find 7 guys buried in avy's in this area 3 were dead. I know how dangerous it can be. In 48 years neither I nor my buddies have ever been in a serious slide. We ride the area like we own it, and we go where we want when we want. We are gettin fricken tired of guys showing up and getting offended because we ride over or around them. Were not going to sit at the bottom of a hill and watch for 1/2 hours while a group of avy's fearing riders go one at a time up and out of an area. Were up there to ride. We decided a few years ago we had wasted our last minute of riding waiting and watching for you avy fearing riders to do your thing. You can take all your avy's classes and stick them up your nose. Will take our experience and knowledge of the area over your avy classes any day of the week. ( not that we have not been to several classes ) It's getting to the point that almost every ride we get approached by some tough guys ready to kick our @$$'s cause we ride dangerously and put everybody on the mountain at risk. Well, if you can't climb a chute stay the heck out of it, or at least turn out before you get stuck and if you get stuck don't get mad at us because we decide to blow passed you. If we thought we were putting you in danger we wouldn't do it. Every year it appears that most of you avy fearing rider are riding more for the social life than you are for the riding. I don't want to die in an avy, but good grief Charlie Brown, it's comes with the sport. It's getting to the point that nobody's riding, your all sitting around talking about riding and if we don't sit around and wait for you were @$$holes. Good grief. I'm glad I don't have to ride with that kind of fear everyday. Why do some of you even ride anymore? Your fear has got to be taken all the fun out of it. If you don't know the area and you want to be safe more power to you, but don't get offended if a group of guys blows past you while your evaluating the situation. Their experience and knowledge of the mountain may far out weight your experience and avy classes. I'm just sayin.

well aren't you lucky to be perfect

 

[polaris dude]

Common misconception.
Slides can happen anywhere the a trigger, slope and conditions allow.

Small terrain traps are often VERY deadly as people can't get out or discount their danger.

I've seen slides come down through many timbered slopes where people mistakenly thought the anchor points were enough to hold it down. It's got VERY little to do with holding a slab or slope in place.

well now that 2 people have informed me that there CAN be avys anywhere no one has yet to address what to look for in the snow layers...

 

[OuraySledder]

FACT:

I can ride from my house and be in serious avy country in less than 5 minutes. I pretty much ride with the same core group of guys. I am 48 and have been mountain riding since I was 5. We ride up to 5 times a week, but never less than twice. Nobody, and I mean nobody knows this area better than we do. I have bow hunted it since I was old enough to walk and I know every nook and cranny within a 50 mile radius. I have help find 7 guys buried in avy's in this area 3 were dead. I know how dangerous it can be. In 48 years neither I nor my buddies have ever been in a serious slide. We ride the area like we own it, and we go where we want when we want. We are gettin fricken tired of guys showing up and getting offended because we ride over or around them. Were not going to sit at the bottom of a hill and watch for 1/2 hours while a group of avy's fearing riders go one at a time up and out of an area. Were up there to ride. We decided a few years ago we had wasted our last minute of riding waiting and watching for you avy fearing riders to do your thing. You can take all your avy's classes and stick them up your nose. Will take our experience and knowledge of the area over your avy classes any day of the week. ( not that we have not been to several classes ) It's getting to the point that almost every ride we get approached by some tough guys ready to kick our @$$'s cause we ride dangerously and put everybody on the mountain at risk. Well, if you can't climb a chute stay the heck out of it, or at least turn out before you get stuck and if you get stuck don't get mad at us because we decide to blow passed you. If we thought we were putting you in danger we wouldn't do it. Every year it appears that most of you avy fearing rider are riding more for the social life than you are for the riding. I don't want to die in an avy, but good grief Charlie Brown, it's comes with the sport. It's getting to the point that nobody's riding, your all sitting around talking about riding and if we don't sit around and wait for you were @$$holes. Good grief. I'm glad I don't have to ride with that kind of fear everyday. Why do some of you even ride anymore? Your fear has got to be taken all the fun out of it. If you don't know the area and you want to be safe more power to you, but don't get offended if a group of guys blows past you while your evaluating the situation. Their experience and knowledge of the mountain may far out weight your experience and avy classes. I'm just sayin.

No other option but blowing by a group? You talk like you know the area so well, why not find another spot, why not find another way around? Your fricken nuts if you think you know when something is going to slide. I understand where you are coming from because I know my haunts like you know yours, as do my riding buddies. The difference is, instead of letting my testosterone levels get all out of whack because I was late to the party, and somebody else is riding "my" hill, I find a different spot and ride it instead.

Everybody has to start somewhere, you did right? Cut them some slack, heck, talk to the other riders, they might think it would be cool to get some inside info. Instead you ride with an attitude? Thats sad.

You come across as owning all of this land because you have been there so long. Sounds like some skiers I know.

At 48 I would think you could find another way to handle this. You should be thrilled others are taking up the sport, lest the greenies run us all out permanantly. Chill out a little, Ride Friendly Man!

 

[EagleRiverDee]

well now that 2 people have informed me that there CAN be avys anywhere no one has yet to address what to look for in the snow layers...

It's not really something you can put into a paragraph. A layer of sugar snow, a layer of hoar, or just two poorly bonded layers of slab. That's where the avy training comes in. When you dig a test pit, you get in the pit and you look at the layers. You can see exactly where one snowfall moves to the next, sometimes separated by hoar, other times not. Get your shovel behind each layer and pull- see how easy it comes loose- if it gives easy, that's avalanche waiting to happen if the terrain is steep enough. The problem with what we do is we're on sleds that can easily cover 70+ miles in day. A pit only shows what's up with the snow on that particular hill at that particular aspect. So pit tests for snowmobiling is nearly pointless unless for some reason you're riding one hill all day. So that's where the other avy training comes in that teaches you how to size up avy hazard taking into account slope angle and aspect, recent weather, recognizing warning signs (whumping, cracks)etc.

 

[backcountryislife]

FACT:

I can ride from my house and be in serious avy country in less than 5 minutes. I pretty much ride with the same core group of guys. I am 48 and have been mountain riding since I was 5. We ride up to 5 times a week, but never less than twice. Nobody, and I mean nobody knows this area better than we do. I have bow hunted it since I was old enough to walk and I know every nook and cranny within a 50 mile radius. I have help find 7 guys buried in avy's in this area 3 were dead. I know how dangerous it can be. In 48 years neither I nor my buddies have ever been in a serious slide. We ride the area like we own it, and we go where we want when we want. We are gettin fricken tired of guys showing up and getting offended because we ride over or around them. Were not going to sit at the bottom of a hill and watch for 1/2 hours while a group of avy's fearing riders go one at a time up and out of an area. Were up there to ride. We decided a few years ago we had wasted our last minute of riding waiting and watching for you avy fearing riders to do your thing. You can take all your avy's classes and stick them up your nose. Will take our experience and knowledge of the area over your avy classes any day of the week. ( not that we have not been to several classes ) It's getting to the point that almost every ride we get approached by some tough guys ready to kick our @$$'s cause we ride dangerously and put everybody on the mountain at risk. Well, if you can't climb a chute stay the heck out of it, or at least turn out before you get stuck and if you get stuck don't get mad at us because we decide to blow passed you. If we thought we were putting you in danger we wouldn't do it. Every year it appears that most of you avy fearing rider are riding more for the social life than you are for the riding. I don't want to die in an avy, but good grief Charlie Brown, it's comes with the sport. It's getting to the point that nobody's riding, your all sitting around talking about riding and if we don't sit around and wait for you were @$$holes. Good grief. I'm glad I don't have to ride with that kind of fear everyday. Why do some of you even ride anymore? Your fear has got to be taken all the fun out of it. If you don't know the area and you want to be safe more power to you, but don't get offended if a group of guys blows past you while your evaluating the situation. Their experience and knowledge of the mountain may far out weight your experience and avy classes. I'm just sayin.

FACT:

The day you kill someone you'll change your tune.

You are exactly the kind of guy nobody wants to be anywhere NEAR their group when they're riding.

I set off slides all the time, it's just how I ride. I'm a high risk rider, but if someone is stuck on the hill or sitting at the bottom... I FIND ANOTHER CHUTE or hill or cornice to drop, whatever.

I agree with a lot of the sentiment of your post, people that live in fear are a sad bunch, but there's a need for simple common decency too.

 

[Scott]

well now that 2 people have informed me that there CAN be avys anywhere no one has yet to address what to look for in the snow layers...

It's not really something you can put into a paragraph. A layer of sugar snow, a layer of hoar, or just two poorly bonded layers of slab. That's where the avy training comes in. When you dig a test pit, you get in the pit and you look at the layers. You can see exactly where one snowfall moves to the next, sometimes separated by hoar, other times not. Get your shovel behind each layer and pull- see how easy it comes loose- if it gives easy, that's avalanche waiting to happen if the terrain is steep enough. The problem with what we do is we're on sleds that can easily cover 70+ miles in day. A pit only shows what's up with the snow on that particular hill at that particular aspect. So pit tests for snowmobiling is nearly pointless unless for some reason you're riding one hill all day. So that's where the other avy training comes in that teaches you how to size up avy hazard taking into account slope angle and aspect, recent weather, recognizing warning signs (whumping, cracks)etc.

I think you did quite well putting it into a paragraph.

 

[tudizzle]

Without fear life would have no adventure.....it is overcoming that fear that makes life worth living.

 

[Darkhorse]

FACT:

I can ride from my house and be in serious avy country in less than 5 minutes. I pretty much ride with the same core group of guys. I am 48 and have been mountain riding since I was 5. We ride up to 5 times a week, but never less than twice. Nobody, and I mean nobody knows this area better than we do. I have bow hunted it since I was old enough to walk and I know every nook and cranny within a 50 mile radius. I have help find 7 guys buried in avy's in this area 3 were dead. I know how dangerous it can be. In 48 years neither I nor my buddies have ever been in a serious slide. We ride the area like we own it, and we go where we want when we want. We are gettin fricken tired of guys showing up and getting offended because we ride over or around them. Were not going to sit at the bottom of a hill and watch for 1/2 hours while a group of avy's fearing riders go one at a time up and out of an area. Were up there to ride. We decided a few years ago we had wasted our last minute of riding waiting and watching for you avy fearing riders to do your thing. You can take all your avy's classes and stick them up your nose. Will take our experience and knowledge of the area over your avy classes any day of the week. ( not that we have not been to several classes ) It's getting to the point that almost every ride we get approached by some tough guys ready to kick our @$$'s cause we ride dangerously and put everybody on the mountain at risk. Well, if you can't climb a chute stay the heck out of it, or at least turn out before you get stuck and if you get stuck don't get mad at us because we decide to blow passed you. If we thought we were putting you in danger we wouldn't do it. Every year it appears that most of you avy fearing rider are riding more for the social life than you are for the riding. I don't want to die in an avy, but good grief Charlie Brown, it's comes with the sport. It's getting to the point that nobody's riding, your all sitting around talking about riding and if we don't sit around and wait for you were @$$holes. Good grief. I'm glad I don't have to ride with that kind of fear everyday. Why do some of you even ride anymore? Your fear has got to be taken all the fun out of it. If you don't know the area and you want to be safe more power to you, but don't get offended if a group of guys blows past you while your evaluating the situation. Their experience and knowledge of the mountain may far out weight your experience and avy classes. I'm just sayin.

With all that being said... I really pray you are the only person you kill with that attitude.

 

[Bubba700]

I just need too rant, cause this is really starting to piss me off.

Was'nt last year with all those avi deaths a wake up call to you. How many more losses are we going to have before you get it and learn proper riding ethics, I see some flatlanders that know better than you. When you bought your machine did they give you a case of stupid pills too, and how many off them are you taking.

I think in most areas 70% of the people out there really don't have a clue about what you need to know about riding right in the mts.

Here is a good on I saw last weekend in one of my local zones, I wish I took pics of this group. Than you will say hey that's me and boy was that stupid what we did.
So this spot is a pretty big slope sub alpine it has a troff on it that goes on a angle pretty much one of the only ways up and out too the back side of the mt on this side. While me me and my buddy are on on of the lakes watching this group of about 10 coming down all together, two of them decide to high mark above the whole group that's coming down. STUPID STUPID STUPID.....
With the snow fractures and sluffs that we were seeing all day this group was lucky that this slope did'nt let go.

-Next, this is still the same group and close to the same area. I watch 4 of them charge up the same slope all at the same time, two of them nearly hit each other and this was on the slope we seen large fractures on. HHHMMM I wonder what would happen if that slope broke and all four of your were buried, the rest of your group would'nt even had a clue if it happened cause they were not to be seen. Me and my group would have had to rescue your retarded butts.

-Another one, This happened a few weeks ago. My crew and I were at one of our climbing bowls, we try to only put one person on the slope at a time while the rest watch at the safe zone. One of my friends get stuck, so we send one up to give him a hand and stops below him and walk the rest (being safe) while the rest off us will watch till the are down if anything should happen. Since your pointing things out and bragging about your own education of how much you know, you should know that stopping bellow the rider that is stuck does not minimize the risk from what it was if you stop over him. A hill slides due to too much of a load on top of a fragile week layer. Its the added weight of 2 riders+ machines that will cause the whole slope to slide. Irregardless if one is higher than the other. Must have not been paying attention during your education
This new group comes into the area and two of them deside to show us there egos (more like stupidness) and start highmarking. One of them zips past my two friends that are on the slope highmarks right above them and nearly lost control.
Did you even think about of the safety of those two guys below you, what about if you lost total control and your sled hit them or if the slope gave away cause of you highmarking above them. Luck to them this person and his tiny group left right away. I was ready to ride over to they were and rip his key out and toss it in the snow, I was pissed cause you took that safety from my friends.

When are you people going to learn. Minimize that risk one at a time, safe zones ( don't sit in the avi runout zone), read the avi reports they are there for a reason, get gear beacon, probe, shovel and know how to use it and put it in your back pack, and get AVI TRAINING!!!!! they teach you you to use that gear properly and read those reports, etc, etc.

If you still want to ride like a retard, go do it some where else and quit putting other groups at risk.

Maybe there is a how to ride in the mts. bible for you that you should read.....

I think I am going to start taking pictures and posting them now, so these people will learn from their mistakes.

Did you take the time to stop and maybe share some knowledge? If you aren't trying to be part of the solution you are part of the problem.

 

[mwv]

Did you take the time to stop and maybe share some knowledge? If you aren't trying to be part of the solution you are part of the problem.

Its very hard to give some knowledge when they take off right away. I'd would like to tell them, maybe if I see them again I can. All of us can learn from mistakes. With over 18years in the backcountry experience I'm still learning new stuff too.

 

[Bubba700]

Thanks for letting us know how long you have been in the backcountry, unfortunatly as you have seen, just cause people have been out in the backcountry it doesn't mean that it has taught them anything about being safe, looks like even in that 18 years you still haven't learned the basics of why Avy's happen. Do yourself a favor and get into a class or 2 this winter, its your friends lives you will be saving by doing it.

Ride safe this winter.

 

[mwv]

Thanks for letting us know how long you have been in the backcountry, unfortunatly as you have seen, just cause people have been out in the backcountry it doesn't mean that it has taught them anything about being safe, looks like even in that 18 years you still haven't learned the basics of why Avy's happen. Do yourself a favor and get into a class or 2 this winter, its your friends lives you will be saving by doing it.

Ride safe this winter.

I have taken many avy class in the past years sleding, skiing, and mountaineering. Yes your right its loading does cause avy's that's why we are minimizing the amount to be put on it and distrubiting it as much as we can while limiting the numbers up there.

 

[BOHICA]

FACT:

I can ride from my house and be in serious avy country in less than 5 minutes. I pretty much ride with the same core group of guys. I am 48 and have been mountain riding since I was 5. We ride up to 5 times a week, but never less than twice. Nobody, and I mean nobody knows this area better than we do. I have bow hunted it since I was old enough to walk and I know every nook and cranny within a 50 mile radius. I have help find 7 guys buried in avy's in this area 3 were dead. I know how dangerous it can be. In 48 years neither I nor my buddies have ever been in a serious slide. We ride the area like we own it, and we go where we want when we want. We are gettin fricken tired of guys showing up and getting offended because we ride over or around them. Were not going to sit at the bottom of a hill and watch for 1/2 hours while a group of avy's fearing riders go one at a time up and out of an area. Were up there to ride. We decided a few years ago we had wasted our last minute of riding waiting and watching for you avy fearing riders to do your thing. You can take all your avy's classes and stick them up your nose. Will take our experience and knowledge of the area over your avy classes any day of the week. ( not that we have not been to several classes ) It's getting to the point that almost every ride we get approached by some tough guys ready to kick our @$$'s cause we ride dangerously and put everybody on the mountain at risk. Well, if you can't climb a chute stay the heck out of it, or at least turn out before you get stuck and if you get stuck don't get mad at us because we decide to blow passed you. If we thought we were putting you in danger we wouldn't do it. Every year it appears that most of you avy fearing rider are riding more for the social life than you are for the riding. I don't want to die in an avy, but good grief Charlie Brown, it's comes with the sport. It's getting to the point that nobody's riding, your all sitting around talking about riding and if we don't sit around and wait for you were @$$holes. Good grief. I'm glad I don't have to ride with that kind of fear everyday. Why do some of you even ride anymore? Your fear has got to be taken all the fun out of it. If you don't know the area and you want to be safe more power to you, but don't get offended if a group of guys blows past you while your evaluating the situation. Their experience and knowledge of the mountain may far out weight your experience and avy classes. I'm just sayin.

Are you kidding me me Spur?????? Lets change the situation a bit. Just by chance you blew a belt or had some other sled failure that got "YOU" stuck in one of these chutes. Obviously, you are far to experienced not to turn out in time! Along comes your buddy whooping it up as he wheelies by you. Your thinking, damb I got beat again when out of nowhere you hear a crack and feel a whoomf and the whole mountains coming down on top of you. You mentioned fear in your post. Well buddy, your time is coming to experience what real fear is, I just hope you don't take anybody with you.
Mark

 

[Pownar]

1967 snowmobile

Did anyone else catch that? So this was the type of snowmobile you were using to climb mountains when you were 5? Wow you are good. That's why you don't need any avy classes!

FACT:

I can ride from my house and be in serious avy country in less than 5 minutes. I pretty much ride with the same core group of guys. I am 48 and have been mountain riding since I was 5. We ride up to 5 times a week, but never less than twice. Nobody, and I mean nobody knows this area better than we do. I have bow hunted it since I was old enough to walk and I know every nook and cranny within a 50 mile radius. I have help find 7 guys buried in avy's in this area 3 were dead. I know how dangerous it can be. In 48 years neither I nor my buddies have ever been in a serious slide. We ride the area like we own it, and we go where we want when we want. We are gettin fricken tired of guys showing up and getting offended because we ride over or around them. Were not going to sit at the bottom of a hill and watch for 1/2 hours while a group of avy's fearing riders go one at a time up and out of an area. Were up there to ride. We decided a few years ago we had wasted our last minute of riding waiting and watching for you avy fearing riders to do your thing. You can take all your avy's classes and stick them up your nose. Will take our experience and knowledge of the area over your avy classes any day of the week. ( not that we have not been to several classes ) It's getting to the point that almost every ride we get approached by some tough guys ready to kick our @$$'s cause we ride dangerously and put everybody on the mountain at risk. Well, if you can't climb a chute stay the heck out of it, or at least turn out before you get stuck and if you get stuck don't get mad at us because we decide to blow passed you. If we thought we were putting you in danger we wouldn't do it. Every year it appears that most of you avy fearing rider are riding more for the social life than you are for the riding. I don't want to die in an avy, but good grief Charlie Brown, it's comes with the sport. It's getting to the point that nobody's riding, your all sitting around talking about riding and if we don't sit around and wait for you were @$$holes. Good grief. I'm glad I don't have to ride with that kind of fear everyday. Why do some of you even ride anymore? Your fear has got to be taken all the fun out of it. If you don't know the area and you want to be safe more power to you, but don't get offended if a group of guys blows past you while your evaluating the situation. Their experience and knowledge of the mountain may far out weight your experience and avy classes. I'm just sayin.

 

[Rollins]

danger is the name of our game people no need to fight and hate on eachother over avy's just be smart check snow conditions wear your beacons make sure your buddies know how to operate them carry your probes and shovels with you at all times... nothing else you can do it's mother nature she is unpredictable... honestly whats the point of bragging how b.a. of a rider you are in a post about avy's... climing, sidehilling, and even sitting at the bottom is dangerous so watch your back check conditions and use your head other than that there is nothing more that you can do

thats my .02

 

[ruffryder]

Spur, I think you should do some research into the people that have died in avalanches. It has nothing to do with knowledge.. it has to do with the application of that knowledge.

Look at that avy video, about the 3 or 4 avalanche experts (or students) that got caught and died.

A couple of years ago, someone died in northern washington. I have heard that he was one of the most knowledgeable people in the area. Yet, the avy still got him.

 

[nuggetau]

Wow, am I tired of this common misconception that a beacon and probe is some magical get out of an avalanche free card! The reality is, if you are buried in an avalanche you will most likely die! Beacon or no beacon!!! If you are riding in an avalanche area with a probe and beacon you are maybe 1/2 of 1% more "safe" than the guy without one.

If safety is REALLY your overriding concern you should not get off the trail. Virtually no one dies from an avalanche riding trails. So, this constant pissing match of who is safest is REALLY disingenuous. If you really want to be safe, and it's really that important to you, you shouldn't be riding in the mountains. That same philosophy would also apply to driving a car, more people die in car accidents per number of people than avalanches. Where are the people advocating wearing a helmet to drive to the grocery store, or wearing knee pads and a chest protector driving down the freeway. It sure would be more SAFE!

If you want to be SAFE, don't put yourself in any situation where you would need a beacon. The odds it will save your life is VERY slim! If you don't understand that fact, you are as dim as the people you are criticizing.

 

[600ps]

Go over to the group (take a few breaths first!!) and explain to them how they are putting themselves & others at risk.
You'd be surprised how many of them will respond positively to a RATIONAL explanation of the dangers & some proper techniques.

Myself & my husband (backcountryislife) decided a couple years ago to stop *****ing about it to ourselves & make a point of talking to people about it. 99% of them have asked for more info & been honestly wanting to improve their habits. Quite a few of the people we have talked to we see out now & they have beacons & a few have even taken classes that we have suggested. They're also now people that we know are watching our back because we took the effort to watch theirs. (what comes around...)

You'll be surprised how positively people react if you take the effort to talk (not scream, it's hard) to them!

so very very well said - we took an avy class Dec 2008 and that is one of the many tools we walked away with - I know there is no snow & there has been much discussion about having an avy class on the snow to visually see what happens on the layers - maybe soon for both the snow & a class