SNOWEST FORUMS: Member Comments on "Letter to All Members"

[ac_]

Thanks oonighttrain.... it's been awhile.

i remember the days of only 1 or 2 moderators.. AC!!! help!!!

on a different note: not everyone has $10 to spend but, lets be honest, like was said earlier in this thread.. for all the info, fun and friendships that have been made. $10 is nothing.. as much time as some people spend on here, it really is dirt cheap entertainment..

ill pay the $ and see what happens. and, because i can, ill also look at whatever other forum i choose..

 

[AK-Rider]

You will still be able to search and read for tech info as a non-paying member.

Jay, unless I'm reading this wrong, I believe you're mistaken. According to the original post, Guests can see the forums and read a PORTION of all the threads. Basic (unpaid) members get to do that, plus post in three non-tech forums, and have a LIMITED ability to read and post in other (yet to be named) topics and forums. The Premium (paid) member will have full access to the forums, including the new (read, useful) search function. Am I missing something here? Where does it state that non-paying members will be able to search and read tech info?

To: All SnoWest Members
From: Harris Publishing
Subject: Big Changes Coming to the SnoWest Forums


Guest:
* Will have the ability to see all the forums and read a portion of all the threads
* Will be able to READ SwapMeet Forum
* Will be able to READ the SnowSafety Forum
* Will be able to READ the SnowMembers Forum


Basic Member:
This level will be completely free. Members here will have all of the privileges of a guest, but will also get:
* Full posting ability in the SwapMeet forum, the SnowSafety forum, and the SnowMembers forum
* Limited posting ability in the other forums
* Limited ability to read other topics and forums
* Private Message Capabilities with limited storage

Premium Member:
All of the above privileges, plus:
* Unlimited viewing and posting privileges across the forums
* Unrestricted private-message capability
* Unrestricted access to all of the new features (chat rooms, treadmill, live-topic, etc.)
* Instant-Messenger
* Personal Blog
* Photo Albums
* "My Garage"
* Polls
* Enhanced Search Engine
* Social Groups
* Invitations to meetups and group rides
* ... And MUCH MUCH more!!!

 

[HOBB-Z]

I find it interesting that Darrell Harris sells Harris Publishing to his two sons and since then things go in a very different direction. I guess the two boys need to pay that monthly loan payment along with their high mortgages and large car payments...gotta keep up with the Jones's ya know! hahaha

Christopher....I really didn't have an opinion of you before this thread. I certainly do now. BTW, I don't like what you have done to this forum. Big D...you know my feelings about you...I thought you were at a Star Wars convention, the dark side must have gotten the best of you, eh?

I must agree with my bro Slim...if you have a sled related business you better not be a moderator! It is pathetic SW has allowed this, but this isn't a democracy...but usually a business listens to their customers. hmmmm does mmsports have a vested interest? LMFAO! I have never heard of you until this thread....but it is pretty apparent what your agenda is. You sound like your Preston buddies ....ya know the ex-chief of police and ex-mayor/state parole officer...hahaha....are you all that way down there!? Seriously? "Whiner forum?" LMAO....I am seeing more and more of this...you disagree with a moderator and/or you express your opinion about the direction of this forum you are labelled a whiner....haha...all I can say is pathetic. You (certain moderators) sound like the current occupants of the White House. I guess we should just shut up like Obama wants all the conservatives to do in regards to Obamacare? I am really sick of stupid people...my tolerance level is about gone.

I have met a lot of good friends on here...life long friends...for example, Sunridge Sledhead, Idaho Slim, CoyoteGirl, sledchick, Idpwdagrl, SnoJo, Kevco, Mtm7, Super B, Ski-Doo Junkie, Griz....I am sure I have missed some and I apologize. I will forever be grateful for linking me with these great people. This is the ONLY reason I will consider staying on this forum....because of the great people I have met on here and for good information they provide. If I stay it will have NOTHING to do with these so-called services you provide. Don't get me wrong I am grateful that SW forum has been a vehicle for me to met great people and receive great info.

Another question...is Greg Manwaring in charge of the advertising on this site? I know he is in charge of the magazine's advertising. Gee...you might be wondering how I know so much about the inner-workings of SW...LMAO.

Cheers! MPS

What pisses me off the very most is a guy that doesn't even know the meaning of ANIMAL'S RIDE has been allowed to come in and flush our community down the toilet.

There are years of history that has built this place and its being destroyed by someone that saw none of it.

Great post that pretty much sums up just how bad it stinks in here.

 

[LiveAlaska]

Well I for one (of many) am glad that all of this is getting sorted out.

Many of you know me and my dedication to this forum, to helping people where I can and sharing the information that I'm fortunate to be exposed to with the members of this forum. So, Hopefully you can see that I don't make "knee jerk" reactions to things nor do I bend easily to satisfy others.

Just like you, I will be paying for the service when that transition happens. For me, I couldn't look other members in the eye and say that I'm rowing the same boat as them if I didn't. And... for such a small amount compared to my normal daily activities I'm very happy to pay to have such good access to other members, the camaraderie and information on this site.

The charity that I have participated in, and from, with fellow SnoWest-Forum members has been a life changing experience. Whether that was helping Sawyers niece Gracie get over her life threatening illness, learning more about people like EricW who Daily make a contribution to the world he lives in, having many members last year GIVE parts to get a young man back on the snow... or mourning the loss of people that have changed our lives like Rick Ward....

The PEOPLE on this site DO make this site... that is why I want to be part of it for years to come and the price of a 12pack is not going to get in my way of keeping that as part of my life.

So, before you say "Moderators get free "dues" " ... Even if they did.... I'll be paying the same as you regardless as part of my own decision to support this site. I WILL BE PAYING when we get to that point....REGARDLESS. To me, it's worth the price of 1/3'rd of a gallon of 2-smoke oil.

The issues of speed, search-ability and other performance related items will be a thing of the past with the new equipment.

There will be some great options to add entertainment, communication and connections to the forums that will make it easier to communicate and find what you need here.

These early changes to the layout of the forum that Christopher has been trying out, that seem to be frustrating to some, will be refined in response to our suggestions as members.

From my viewpoint, Christopher & SnoWest is putting in a massive effort into making this a better site for us. His is a thankless job that, by definition, will have a target pasted to his back for quite some time while the changes are made.

Christopher has a "tall order" in front of him... He'll need to bring the site back up to speed, and fix many of the technical and communication issues on this site. I'm not a computer specialist... but Christopher, NeatBrian and others at Harris are... They are on task right now and we should see some results in the very near future.

So hang with me here... Christopher has already told us that the priority is to bring these forums up to speed... We get a FREE trial run of this after the new servers are brought online and we get to see just what is possible for this site.

We also will get to have many free aspects of this site even AFTER the "dues" kick in.

For as long as it's free... lets not "write the script" here.

With so many challenges facing the snowmobile community in the West, I believe that Christopher and Harris Publishing will be stepping up to the plate in a major way to act as good stewards for a sport/hobby that gives us all a lot of enjoyment!

You will have to make your own decision on whether or not you want to stay... But please, make that decision based on what this site can give you in return for your investment.... not spite or anger... there is enough of that in the world today.

IMO... the proof WILL be "in the pudding"

Well said, enough with the angry outbursts, name calling etc....., I would love to see this site back on its feet again, with the issues resolved, and once again be a great source for information and entertainment.
And hopefully when things are working again there will be a place for the likes of me.
My Best,
LA

 

[sledhead131]

when i first was reading through.. i was wow pretty close to what i was thinking and i DO like it keep it up!! like we heard!!! world is CHANGING!! so is everything in it!! keep up the good work snowest... but the ONLY thing i thought was kinda.. well a bit goofy... is the basic member which is free.... you get limited posts and limited... other stuff... i get like the inbox thing... you can delete those.. what people are going to do is keep making new accounts when they run out of there "limits"...???????? well anyway TTT!! for ya KEEP IT UP!!!!

 

[aksledneck]

Alright, I'll write it...

Hotmail.... serves how many members?
Facebook... how many pictures and links?
Myspace.. how many more pictures, links and videos
Photobucket.... how many pics? (bucket loads! HA)
Google ... no membership required

.... all free exactly!


Well here goes my two cents worth. I hear pros and cons, rational thought and straight up whiners. The cold hard facts are that most were happy with the way the forum was, but now a collective few have decided that the majority does not know what is best for this site. We were happy with a simple site that was supported by dollars produced by the advertisers. Now comes the few that believe that we need all these "bells and whistles" but that will require a user fee. Next we will get the pitch of all the even newer things we need, for a slight increase in fees. I hate to say it but this is the exact problem with liberal thinking in this country, and now it has trickled down to Snowest forums. Just because a few want to create some fancy bells and whistle forum that the majority of users here have said they do not want, you feel obliged to push it on us. As polar had said, myspace , facebook, google etc charge nothing but yet let free enterprise of advertising fund them, and they are huge by comparison. I have no problem spending 10 bucks a year on something I enjoy but my problem lies in the fact that I joined this site to learn and share info from fellow members, a simple site that was bound by a common passion for snowmachining. Never have I had anyone from snowest get on here and enlighten me. We all have a shared passion and up until now, had a place to converse with each other. You cannot convince me that the old Snowest forum could not be supported by advertising alone, If this forum is one of the most popular sites on the web as has been said. With that, we come full circle again to the liberal thinking that if we could just come up with some more revenue then we could do this, and this, and this, and add this bell and whistle..This is exactly what the majority is saying no too! I don't think I can be any clearer in my opinion. Just my two cents!!!!

 

[aksledneck]

Ok I'm a computer idiot, my above post starts 3rd line into polar's quote. Sorry man, this is what happens with bells and whistles

 

[SHMO]

While I understand that $10 isn't a lot of money, I do not think I will be signing up for a membership to Snowest Forum. I have however subscribed to Snowest magazine for ages, but they have actual journalists, editors, articles and pictorals. The magazine is not filled with my personal writings or my neighbors pictures from the weekend. There is a drastic difference in the two resources.

I have been here on the forum for a long, long time, since 1996 or 1997. I've come to share my knowledge of snowmobiles, meet new friends, pickup some information, do some friendly bashing and be on my way. I have absolutely loved Snowest. However, I am not excited about the new bells and whistles or the added features. I don't need them. I don't want them, and I will not pay for something I don't need or want. Snowest was great for me as a member for over 15 years. It didn't need all this tweaking in my opinion.

Unfortunately PAYING for a forum based website, where members are supplying 99% of the content and then turning around and charging those members to do so, goes against my grain. We simply come here to share with each other. Nobody is going to charge me to share my own information. I will simply offer my free advice and listen to others offering their free advice on other websites that are directly intended and geared towards sharing free information. Good luck with your business venture. I am sure you will make a lot more money, while you turn an otherwise excellent website into a paycheck. I hope it pays off.

SHMO

 

[Cheeto]

It's 4:30 in the morning, the Snow Show opens at 9:00 and I need to be there early because I need lots of stuff.
Knowing all of the above I forced myself to read each and every post here from start to finish. Here's my .02.

-"Fluff" seems to be a recurring comment. I came to Snowest (admittedly not long ago) for snowmobile information. I got what I came for and still don't know what the rainbows,post counts etc. have to do with anything. How much bandwith does this stuff take up?

-Only paying advertisers should be advertising. No hawking your crap in your sig line. Classified section is obviously a different story.

- From what I saw of the poll, most felt all website advertising dollars should only support the site. See above to understand how to increase advertising revenue.

-Clearly some people just don't understand the principle of principles. Say that 10 times fast.

- Like I said, I haven't been around long but I'm noticing a lot of "take the site back to where it was before all these changes took place". What I'm not seeing is any explanation as to why this isn't a viable option. "I didn't anticipate the bandwidth usage"...then pull back on some of the recent add-ons. When you find yourself neck-deep in a hole don't order a backhoe to keep digging, climb back out of the hole.

- There are plenty of members to fill the role of snooty. In this thread alone I've seen some pretty unprofesional attitudes coming from some Mods/Admin. You guys should hold yourselves to a higher standard.

-Censorship of another website's name then claiming it was a glitch??? Really??? Wow.

In closing I'd like to say that I appreciate the info I have gotten from the members of a web forum supported by the advertisers of Snowest.com. I have a 6 year old sled. The mags have little to no info for me so it is here that I must look for guidance.

 

[Xrider]

We were happy with a simple site that was supported by dollars produced by the advertisers.

My thoughts exactly. Personally I come on here for the information sharing. I'm really not interested in the social aspect or any of the arguing and other junk that takes place. Love the swap meet!!! I guess I don't see where there is enough of a benefit to the new format to warrant a pay site. With that said, would I pay? Yes, because like a couple other pay sites (a diesel truck forum for example) I've paid for the subscription 10 fold in information I've gained....well worth it.

 

[polaris bob]

OK, I will call it like it is.
The site has LOST MONEY for 11 out of 11 years and they are tired of it and want it to become 100% SELF SUPPORTING.

Lets look at that statement for a minute.

The question is, why? Furthermore, was this site started off to make a profit, or was it started off as a way to get those with the same interests & background ( sledding ) together??

I'm a fairly long time member, read during the season and post when I feel I have something to offer. I have bought off of the swap meet and I have sold a few things too. So I fit in your 80% profile bracket that you don't hear from very often.


Common sense tells me that the advertising should pay to keep the site up and running, not the end user(s).


From what I have read in your introduction thread you are fairly new to the SW community. You were/ are very familiar with the forum software and basically talked yourself into a job running this site and have/ had these grandiose ideas on how to make this site better, from your viewpoint. I am sure part of your sales pitch that got you your job was telling the owners of the servers (HP) that you could make them money if you were brought on board. ( How else could you justify your pay check )

You then started making the upgrades/ turning features on that you saw were not being used in the original set up, ( In your eyes, really really cool stuff that everyone should like as much as you do!!! ) only to learn that the site was suffering from the upgrades. You found out, after the fact, that even though the site was only using the basic package it was already at max operating capacity. ( H'mmm maybe there was a reason after-all, as to why the site was only using the basic package????? )


What to do, what to do????? You have sold the owners on a game plan and all of a sudden they are going to have to spend a boat load of money to get the site operating at speed with the features that you told them they needed to have, to go forward into the future. What to do, what to do?????


Hey, lets charge the end user to use the site, that way we can cover the operating costs!!!! They will get such a great benefit from using all of these cool new features they should not have any problem paying a small fee to get them. We have all of this great content that they are already coming here for, when we give them even more great options they should not have an issue with paying a small fee to do so in the future!!!!





Here in lies the problem as I see it. This site got to be the great site it is, because of the end user. The guys and gals that call this place their home, come here to hang out with their other family members and offer up help and ideas because they feel they are helping out other members of their family.

You have this huge group of users that love the sport of snowmobiling, most would bend over backwards to help out another forum members if they could!!

Now you're going charge them to help out the others. The others will have to pay to receive this help. Those that have willingly offered their contributions for free in the past will start re-thinking their contributions to this site in the future! (I know I will)

I have been a member of a few other site's, that while being smaller overall, had the same core of very dedicated end users. Those sites also went with the, you have to pay to use this site now model, they all have crashed and burned and are now a thing of the past, like the dodo bird!






In my opinion.........

You should also have a good base of advertisers that should be more than willing to pay to get access to this concentrated base of customers that would want to buy their product!! I know for a fact that I have purchased many many things from advertisers that I have found off of this web site. Places that I would not known of, if it were not for the fact that I found them here!!!



Please tell me why you can't keep this site up and running with the income from your advertisers.

Please tell me why I will now have to pay to come to my home and see those advertisements??





Personally, I will not pay one red cent to have access to this site, one of my winter time homes. If the basic free membership does not give me the level of access that I want, similar to what I am getting now, well I will leave and go to one of the offshoot site's that WILL pop up as soon as you make the change!! Although I have no inside knowledge in this, I am sure that a few are already in the planning as I write this. Its just the way things happen.


Furthermore, after having a look around the site and seeing all of the changes that have been made in the last short while, in my opinion, the changes suck. I don't like them. It has made it much harder to find my way around the site. The info that was very easy for me to find before, is now somewhere else that I will have to figure out how to find it. I now absolutely hate the new swap-meet. And because of that, I will use it way less!!



Again, in my opinion, you are trying to fix something that was not broken to begin with!! It might have needed some tweaking here and there, but it was not near broken!!

I have seen other site's go down this same road, none were better for the effort. I see no difference with this one. When you charge the end user to use your site, things will go down hill. Its just the way it is!!



Thank you for giving me the time to express my thoughts here. I wish you all the luck in your future plans, but I will most likely not be here to watch your plans unfold. And for that I am truly sorry, I feel like I am loosing my winter time home.



PB Out!

 

[TT670]

The last sled forum I belonged to that went the pay route, eventually disappeared. I can almost guarantee the forum content will deteriorate and the members will slowly go away. The cost may be cheap, but theres lots of other "free" resources out there, most of us use them already. I certianly wont pay a dime.

 

[Sturgis Sledder]

What is so funny is one of the "new features" is a "proprietary search" WTF?!? You can't tells that there is no one else on the internet that has already done this and posted the code. Think about it, if most of the money that is being pizzed down HP's leg in the form of enhancements and upgrades had been spent on servers and bandwidth we'd be fine.

Another one of the new toys is this alert deal, how many of you guys can get cell reception in your favorite sledding spots? USELESS feature.

You continue to think that you know exactly what we want and need, but in the end because no one at HP is smart enough to make this forum pay for itself with ad dollars.

Ps I know of a site that was making $2,000 a month from 1 advertiser selling a freaking map of Daytona during bike week (he was selling them for $11.95, so if say a certain company is selling tracks or gear at hundreds of dollars and you were able to recoup $10 - $ 15 per transaction from those companies it wouldn't take long to "earn" the money you are trying to get from subscriptions), as well as having numerous other advertisers paying similar money, so don't tell me it can't be done. It can be done but you need to have a plan and follow that plan, so far what I have seen is there is a plan (new features i.e. mysledspace.com, a promise of new members and revenue), and no thought about what or WHO got this site to be as popular as it is, and no way to follow the plan. It cannot be done by charging the people that use the site directly.

 

[machz69]

Saying that the mag/site is not in trouble but will charge to use the site is like when a fighter gets hit and shakes his head like that was nothing, you know he's in trouble and usually goes to sleep shorlty after. I don't think charging the user is a good idea. I know it's only 10 bux but there are more then enough sites on line that don't charge the user. If your not already charging for advertising, you should start. that's where you get your $$ not from the people that use the forums. I think it will be the begining of the end. You will get down to a hand full of forum junkies. There have been other forums in the past that were the largest forums on the net and now just about the smallest. Too bad it was good while it lasted.
just my 2c

 

[08poo800]

Forum membership fees

I am a business owner and understand the costs associated with owning one. Expenses never seem to quit, something always needs to be fixed and as an owner you can only charge what is fair to our clients.

I will subscribe to the forums. I like the new layout and options of the forum. I don't like the slowness of the forum as it currently is.

 

[Steamboat-RN]

I went to bed last night trying to figure out just why it was that I am so against the new changes and the fee schedule. As many have said, 10 bucks a year is not much in the grand scheme of things. There is certainly a LOT of good information here. And even more humor. On the surface, 10 buck a year sounds like a bargain.

Then I started to re-read some of the responses from Christopher and and several disturbing themes started to emerge.
The repeated statement that they were trying to enlist "real industry players" to join the forum to replace the members who chose to leave.
Not one reply to multiple requests for and open forum as to what changes we, the users, want or need.
Dissenters are labeled whiners by admin and (some)mods. While supporters, no matter how new or how few posts, are thanked and rated positively.
With a few exceptions, the majority of users that have supported the fees are low post newbies or lurkers who only use this site for taking information. I have said in the past that post count is not an indicator of value to the forum. But those with little or no posts have contributed little or nothing to the value of this site. If you are a registered voter and have never voted, don't complain about who gets elected.
It is obvious that user feedback is being heard. This thread is proof that, at some level, there is acknowledgement that there may be a problem.
There is a fairly large and growing group of us the feel, that Christopher does indeed sit up in his "ivory tower and looks down on us with distain".
He has said that the industry "experts" have mandated these changes and that they know better than we what we want.
That may be true in the magazine industry. But this is an open forum and it has grown to this size solely on the merits of it's users.
People joined this site because it was the best place to meet and talk with knowledgeable "players". REAL PLAYERS like mountainhorse and a host of others who FREELY gave out VALUABLE information.

The real players in the forum industry are the users. Ingore us at your peril.

On the bright side, it's dumping snow right now!!!!!!!!

 

[kiliki]

Has Harris considered a family rate?

As someone who does not get into the techie side of stuff much; it does not make sense for me to pay. But, I really do enjoy the other parts of the 4m and the friends I have made on here.

Just a thought.


Thanks,

Kiliki

 

[oulu]

Being in the IT industry the last 20 plus years and knowing what servers cost plus switches, routers and firewalls. I also understand completely what bandwidth cost T-1’s, DS-3’s, OC-192 connections or higher SONET rings if you need them. With all of the possible combinations you can have with collocating hardware and reselling bandwidth plus the advertising dollars you must get from the manufactures here I find it hard to believe that you need to charge users. The amount of money you are gaining off of the users is nothing compared to what you must be getting in from advertising dollars. I’m no accountant but something isn’t adding up here. But that is not any of my business or my concern. I’m from the mid-west, been on here a few years, have gotten some killer deals through the swap meet and learned a lot from some of the other stronger members on here. So I think it is worth 10 bucks but I also think there have been some good ideas tossed out there.
Getting credit to your account for good technical information or post is a great idea. Let users rank it and if it gets so much positive feedback then give them some credit. It makes someone think before they post and it will raise the quality of the post I would think.
I like the idea of taking a portion of the fee and giving it back to those who are trying to fight for the right of our sport. But take that one step further and give it all to them. They are faced with waging a war with the other side that has deep pockets and almost endless resources because it is a popular cause and sounds good in the media. That being said I haven’t done as much as I should have to help out our sport but maybe something good can come out of this. If not giving all the money to them maybe a percentage to start with and then with each letter a member writes to comment on a plan or write a Congress member another percentage will go to the group you want to support.
Charging for membership will more than likely weed out a fair amount of the folks that might tend to drag a site down and fill it with useless rants and empty thoughts.

I will definitely stick around and see what becomes of Snowest out of these changes. The many colorful members on this forum have always made it interesting to read and as unique of a place on the web that there is.

 

[1moretime]

Not a good idea SW. This site is about to go into a stall. If you are not making money on advertising then you may as well shut down the forum. The site may make money from paid subscribers for the first couple of years but more and more customers are going to leave as members realize that the "community" is getting smaller and smaller. Short term gain, long term loss. Here is what is going to happen. One or a group of members is going to start another forum and they are going to let advertising pay for the site. In turn, they will benefit from some extra income and provide a free forum for all of us to enjoy and share information. I understand the costs associated with running sites, paying for employees and soliciting for advertising but SW is alienating its customers by making the forum something different than what the customers want or expect.

Best wishes to SW, I like what you have done and hope you succeed!

 

[polaris bob]

If this was a PROFIT CENTER and was throwing off cash for the last 11 years, then you would be dead nuts right.

But its not, and it hasn't and there is no real expectation that it will.

Your analogy might be better like this.

The school building and facilities have been owned and operated by Harris for years,

The teachers have been their rooms to teach at their leisure and the students have had free admission.

All the while Harris has been paying for the building that everyone has been enjoying.

And now, after 11 years, they are asking all the students to pay a very small fee to cover all of the costs of that building, maintenance and upkeep.

For fear of being redundent......... Why are the advertisers not covering the cost of running this site right now????