Keep "In God we trust" on our money.....

[MPS]

We can go on all day with quotes to support each other here.

Some were Christian and others were Deists. The movement to put "In God We Trust" was definitely pushed by Christians. However, why does that translate into a Christian meaning because they are the ones that pushed it? Would those words offend a Deist? A Jew? Ya I don't think so.

The bottom line is both revisionists and the religious right have tried to make the founding fathers fit their ideology. It gives neither side of the debate any credibility when quotes are found to be ficticious or grossly out of context.

They were certainly godly men who believed in a supreme being, but not all of them would subscribe to the apostles' creed. So are right when you said they were not all Christian and I accept that...arguably many of them were.

 

[ruffryder]

so you equate 'orgainized religion' with being corrupt? is this universal? why is government corrupt? how do you define 'corrupt'?

Yes, most organized religion is corrupt, as most organized religious leaders have power and want to keep it. Government is corrupt for the same thing, power.

I define corrupt as the irresponsible behavior of failing to do what is best for one's country for the improvement of ones personal status.

How do you guys define it?

 

[MPS]

if his 'personal beliefs' are backed by the history of how socialism turns out then YES 'it must be bad'! ones personal beliefs have no regard/bearing how history, to date, has turned out... in terms of socialism! the facts are what they are despite how people view socialism. it does not matter whether one agrees with it or not. in terms of governing people, socialism, is an abject failure not to mention the brutality inflicted on mankind. so perhaps that is why mps is 'so upset'!

huh? he said I was "so upset." hahahaha LMAO

 

[MTm7]

Yes, most organized religion is corrupt, as most organized religious leaders have power and want to keep it. Government is corrupt for the same thing, power.

so not universal??

I define corrupt as the irresponsible behavior of failing to do what is best for one's country for the improvement of ones personal status.

what's your basis for whats 'best'? the next person will disagree with your 'best'.

How do you guys define it?

i would say that is a pretty good definition of corrupt in terms of govenment officials with one caviat... i think 'irresponsible behavior' is a little weak in describing the left/right... they have nefarious intentions so its more than just being irresponsible. irresponsible doesnt carry enough weight.

 

[MTm7]

Using that rationality and the fact that every civilization before us has fallen, couldn't you conclude the same about capitalism or about any government structure?[/



The reality is that all governments fail. All societies fall from the inside, eventually. The only ones that don't are mostly small and more tribal in nature. Mostly having limited government too. Though, they don't have much in the terms of markets either.

the simple answer... no! the failure is man not necessarily the governmental structure. though stick to the topic at hand, ie, socialism is still an abject failure.

 

[MTm7]

It should be removed. Our founding fathers wanted government to have nothing to do with the church. They new the problems that arrose from the two combined..

The wording was only put on there to install fear in the "godless commies" in the 50's anyways.. Nothing more or less, just good old propaganda to help Americans define who the "real enemies" are...

blah..

this is how 'separation of church and state originally read:

I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." (This 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists shows a separation designed to protect religion from government control, not silence religious expressions.)

 

[ruffryder]

the simple answer... no! the failure is man not necessarily the governmental structure.

Then that is the same answer for socialism too... You can't have it both ways..

 

[ruffryder]

(This 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists shows a separation designed to protect religion from government control, not silence religious expressions from government.)

The bold is what I have issue with. I guess my definition of separation of church and state is different then every one elses.

 

[MTm7]

Then that is the same answer for socialism too... You can't have it both ways..

yes and no... if a man has morals he cannot go against his conscience and think that socialism is good or will work. not to mention what history has taught us. as morals decline socialism becomes more palatable. but equally true, as morals decline any structure will topple... only to create a vacumn for tyranny.

 

[MTm7]

The bold is what I have issue with. I guess my definition of separation of church and state is different then every one elses.

why?

 

[ruffryder]

yes and no... if a man has morals he cannot go against his conscience and think that socialism is good or will work. not to mention what history has taught us. as morals decline socialism becomes more palatable. but equally true, as morals decline any structure will topple... only to create a vacumn for tyranny.

Morals = capitalism? Jesus hated rich people.... Jesus expected those with the most to give the most. Seems like Jesus was a socialist.

That is bs, sorry, but it is. Only a unmoral man would think socialism is good? What do you think socialism is about?

WWJD?

 

[ruffryder]

why?

Because, I don't like government saying that we all believe in god. I don't! I know many people that don't either, there for that statement is a lie.

The other problem seems to me that it is a back door to defeating the separation. Seems the focus has been on giving support to one type of religion, but yet if support is given to all religions, then it is not an issue.. That doesn't seem right.

 

[MTm7]

Morals = capitalism?

Jesus hated rich people.

... Jesus expected those with the most to give the most.

Seems like Jesus was a socialist.

Jesus was not concerned, primarily, with social issues. and no Jesus was not a socialist... did you catch what you yourself typed... GIVE...socialism TAKES... among other things!

show me where Jesus hated rich people.

That is bs, sorry, but it is. Only a unmoral man would think socialism is good? What do you think socialism is about?

WWJD?

i must be irritating you... your pulling out WWJD... LOL!

 

[ruffryder]

Blah, semantics.. Give.. Takes. If you believed in socialism, then you would be giving. If you didn't then it would be taking.. Just a matter of perspective.

If everyone gave according to Jesus, you wouldn't need socialism now would you? Nor would you have rich, nor would you have poor.

Seems the other annoying thing about the "In God we trust" is the fact that if a majority of us believe in God, well, then a majority of us are really really crappy religious people. I doubt the other 10% is the only ones committing crimes.. Just the normal lip service that is the american way of life...

 

[MTm7]

Because, I don't like government saying that we all believe in god. I don't! I know many people that don't either, there for that statement is a lie.

thats fine i would fight for your right not to believe... after all i do believe in freedom. i myself am not concerned with whether 'in god we trust' is on our money... its basically a farce anyways. just because its printed as so does not make it a reality.

The other problem seems to me that it is a back door to defeating the separation. Seems the focus has been on giving support to one type of religion, but yet if support is given to all religions, then it is not an issue.. That doesn't seem right.

the founding fathers were deists so a recognition of God was paramount. you dont like it then you dont like the documents that the FF's adopted. do you want to change the constitution? the FF's by, being deists, did support all religions... at least thats how i see it. you do understand the definition of deist dont you?

 

[ruffryder]

In fact, the statement does represent 95% percent of the US population that believe in God.

Only 90% do.. here is some other interesting facts about what Americans believe in..

The national poll, conducted by Opinion Dynamics Corporation (search), shows that about a third of Americans believe in ghosts (34 percent) and an equal number in UFOs (34 percent), and about a quarter accept things like astrology (search) (29 percent), reincarnation (search) (25 percent) and witches (24 percent).

From fox news too...

I try not to base my beliefs on what a majority does....

 

[MTm7]

Blah, semantics.. Give.. Takes. If you believed in socialism, then you would be giving. If you didn't then it would be taking.. Just a matter of perspective.

If everyone gave according to Jesus, you wouldn't need socialism now would you?

it has nothing to do with what i believe... the paradigm of socialism stands alone as to what it has produced in history. do not confuse charity and socialism... they are fundamentally opposed! the world NEVER needs socialism!

i think its funny how you keep bringing Jesus up... i have never mentioned his name once.

 

[ruffryder]

it has nothing to do with what i believe... the paradigm of socialism stands alone as to what it has produced in history. do not confuse charity and socialism... they are fundamentally opposed! the world NEVER needs socialism!

i think its funny how you keep bringing Jesus up... i have never mentioned his name once.

It was used as a contrary example to morality...

What has capitalism produced in history? Seems you are only focusing on the bad of socialism and the good of capitalism and negating all else. Why can't you accept what capitalism has produced in history?

 

[luvtoride]

www.deism.com

Full of quotes from our founding fathers and great minds throughout history.

I do believe in God, no, I'm not Christian. I don't care if its on our money or not, if you need it to say on your money who to believe in or trust, you need help, bad.

 

[ruffryder]

www.deism.com

Full of quotes from our founding fathers and great minds throughout history.

I do believe in God, no, I'm not Christian. I don't care if its on our money or not, if you need it to say on your money who to believe in or trust, you need help, bad.

Would you have a problem if it stated "Christian God" instead?