M
MPS
Well-known member
I agree and this was generally the point ! WE HAVE BIGGER PROBLEMS ! We can deal with the crazy religious folks later !For now lets focus on the fawking commies K
Keep "In God we trust" on our money.....
- Thread starter Mafesto
- Start date
M
MPS
Well-known member
Again most Americans believe in God, that doesn't mean they go to church or belong to a religion. I have many friends that hate religion, but believe in God. So what if it refers to Christianity...again most people in this nation are Christian....the last time I checked Christianity in general isn't an organized religion. Christianity is a belief in something, not an organized religion.
What?
wowBecause you believe in God doesn't mean you belong to a church or organized religion. The founders did not want organized religion interferring with goverment like it did in England.....meaning the politics and pressure from church leaders, etc. How does a belief in God interfere with goverment? ....keep twisting and construing to make it what you want it to be. There is simply not a church and state issue here.
So I guess you are in favor of taking out God in the Pledge of Allegiance too? Well duh....of course you are.
By the way, get your facts straight. The "In God We Trust" motto first appeared on a United States coin in 1864.
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M
MPS
Well-known member
Here is some light reading for ya Fluffy.
Is the motto constitutional?
The "In God we Trust" motto promotes theistic religion at the expense of non theistic religion and a secular lifestyle. It promotes the belief in a single, male deity which is followed by the main Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam; however, it is foreign to the beliefs of many other religions: Buddhists do not believe in a personal deity; Zoroastrians and Wiccans believe in two deities; Hindus believe in many. It would seem to violate the principle of separation of church and state. Many Agnostics, Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans, other Neopagans, and others are offended by the motto. However, the religious motto has been challenged by three lawsuits and has been found to be constitutional. The courts basically found that the motto does not endorse religion.
This was from your libby as hell 9th circuit court! hahahahaha
"Aronow v. United States," 432 F.2d 242 (1970) in the United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit The court ruled that:
"It is quite obvious that the national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency 'In God We Trust' has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise."
"Madalyn Murray O'Hair, et al. v. W. Michael Blumenthal, Secretary of Treasury, et al." 588 F.2d 1144 (1979) in the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. Ms. O'Hair is (in)famous for successfully challenging compulsory prayer in U.S. public schools. The United States District Court, Western District of Texas, referring to the wording of the Ninth Circuit above, ruled that:
"From this it is easy to deduce that the Court concluded that the primary purpose of the slogan was secular; it served as secular ceremonial purpose in the obviously secular function of providing a medium of exchange. As such it is equally clear that the use of the motto on the currency or otherwise does not have a primary effect of advancing religion."
This ruling was sustained by the Fifth Circuit court. 1
The Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc. conducted a national survey which showed that "In God We Trust" was regarded as religious by an overwhelming percentage of U.S. citizens. They initiated a lawsuit on 1994-JUN-8 in Denver CO to have it removed from U.S. paper currency and coins. They also wanted it to be discontinued as the national motto. Their lawsuit was dismissed by the district Court without trial, on the grounds that "In God We Trust" is not a religious phrase! The Tenth-Circuit federal judge confirmed the dismissal, stating in part:
"...we find that a reasonable observer, aware of the purpose, context, and history of the phrase 'In God we trust,' would not consider its use or its reproduction on U.S. currency to be an endorsement of religion." 5
The U.S. Supreme Court declined to review all of these rulings. It might be embarrassing to them, because the motto also hangs on the wall at the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has commented in passing on the motto saying that:
"[o]ur previous opinions have considered in dicta the motto and the pledge [of allegiance], characterizing them as consistent with the proposition that government may not communicate an endorsement of religious belief." Allegheny, 492 U.S.
Is the motto constitutional?
The "In God we Trust" motto promotes theistic religion at the expense of non theistic religion and a secular lifestyle. It promotes the belief in a single, male deity which is followed by the main Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam; however, it is foreign to the beliefs of many other religions: Buddhists do not believe in a personal deity; Zoroastrians and Wiccans believe in two deities; Hindus believe in many. It would seem to violate the principle of separation of church and state. Many Agnostics, Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans, other Neopagans, and others are offended by the motto. However, the religious motto has been challenged by three lawsuits and has been found to be constitutional. The courts basically found that the motto does not endorse religion.
This was from your libby as hell 9th circuit court! hahahahaha
"Aronow v. United States," 432 F.2d 242 (1970) in the United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit The court ruled that:
"It is quite obvious that the national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency 'In God We Trust' has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise."
"Madalyn Murray O'Hair, et al. v. W. Michael Blumenthal, Secretary of Treasury, et al." 588 F.2d 1144 (1979) in the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. Ms. O'Hair is (in)famous for successfully challenging compulsory prayer in U.S. public schools. The United States District Court, Western District of Texas, referring to the wording of the Ninth Circuit above, ruled that:
"From this it is easy to deduce that the Court concluded that the primary purpose of the slogan was secular; it served as secular ceremonial purpose in the obviously secular function of providing a medium of exchange. As such it is equally clear that the use of the motto on the currency or otherwise does not have a primary effect of advancing religion."
This ruling was sustained by the Fifth Circuit court. 1
The Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc. conducted a national survey which showed that "In God We Trust" was regarded as religious by an overwhelming percentage of U.S. citizens. They initiated a lawsuit on 1994-JUN-8 in Denver CO to have it removed from U.S. paper currency and coins. They also wanted it to be discontinued as the national motto. Their lawsuit was dismissed by the district Court without trial, on the grounds that "In God We Trust" is not a religious phrase! The Tenth-Circuit federal judge confirmed the dismissal, stating in part:
"...we find that a reasonable observer, aware of the purpose, context, and history of the phrase 'In God we trust,' would not consider its use or its reproduction on U.S. currency to be an endorsement of religion." 5
The U.S. Supreme Court declined to review all of these rulings. It might be embarrassing to them, because the motto also hangs on the wall at the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has commented in passing on the motto saying that:
"[o]ur previous opinions have considered in dicta the motto and the pledge [of allegiance], characterizing them as consistent with the proposition that government may not communicate an endorsement of religious belief." Allegheny, 492 U.S.
Yes it is a religion. So what? You said the "In God we trust" wasn't specific. I said that it was specific to Christianity. That is the point.
Partly, also they just didn't like the idea and thought it was for the week minded. I can find some quotes if you want...
Belief in god doens't interfere with government, unless you start basing rules on beliefs of that religion. That is what I have a problem with. I have talked with many republicans, and that is what they hate the most about that party. Government should not stipulate morality from a religious perspective.
Of course... I am not a hypocrite...... much..
and then it was discontinued.... and then recontinued... I was referring to printed moneys.....
some history on the subject...
Love you guys but who cares what it says on the damn money. Maybe it should sey "worthless" on it.
Or, take this money from the person who earned it and give it to the loser who didnt. That ones for you Ruffy.
Or, take this money from the person who earned it and give it to the loser who didnt. That ones for you Ruffy.
M
MPS
Well-known member
We can argue this all day....ok I am gonna stop using the word religion since you aren't getting the point...how bout the word "church" like it states in the Consitution. Explain to me how Christianity is an organized church?
Sure they might have stated organized religion is for the weak minded...I guarantee they never said having a belief in God was for the weak minded...another libby tactic...taking things out of context.
hahaha
oh were ya now...you never specified that you were referring to printed money, in fact everyone has been talking about US currency...again another libby tactic...MMMM what I meant to say was this....MMMMM. Here is your quote:
...and you were making a different point....about why the motto was put in there. Well it was first put on currency right around the time of the Civil War because of a overwhelming belief in God in this nation. You're argument was blown out of the water here...but you say "MMMMM, I meant printed money."
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So what did you do with the money I sent you via my taxes?
LOL! You're not paying enough, just ask our leader.
Close.... Well I would of thought since I was talking about the 1950's and the saying was put on in the 1950's on printed money, that it would have been clear that is what I was talking about.. You are right though, I should have been more specific. MMMM, I meant the reasoning during a specific time period...
So getting back to the point, what was the reason for the change in the 1950's to put the saying on the dollar? What was going on? Were we fighting with anybody? What was on the state of peoples minds at the time?
M
MPS
Well-known member
Well by reading your comment...you inferred that was the only reason it was put on currency...ya not so much sparky. You made no mention of it being put on coins first. So you where either uneducated about it or you where hiding the fact it was first put on the coin. Either way...it speaks a lot!
I see ya have no comment about my court rulings post...even your libby 9th circuit court has some common sense...maybe you better buy some from them.
I see ya have no comment about my court rulings post...even your libby 9th circuit court has some common sense...maybe you better buy some from them.
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[/SIZE][/FONT]Fun little website....lol
MPS, do you equate the founding fathers belief in God with a belief in Christianity?
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I see ya have no comment about my court rulings post...even your libby 9th circuit court has some common sense...maybe you better buy some from them.
Who cares? I don't believe the same as the courts... From you, using the courts as an example is a laugh... Again, if people agree with you it is ok, but if they don't, well then they are just perpetuating "their agenda".
So, I see "In God we trust" and see religion, faith, sprituality, Christianity. I see all these things in that statement. I do not like a social and echonomic mechanism that is a government, having statements about spiritual beliefs.
That is my belief. Seems we are getting caught up in what the word "God" means.
That is my belief. Seems we are getting caught up in what the word "God" means.
Yah, you got me... My "Agenda" has been found out.... Quick call FOX so they can put this up, send an email out too...
So you have yet to answer, why the change in the 1950's? Come on, answer it, I know you can!
if his 'personal beliefs' are backed by the history of how socialism turns out then YES 'it must be bad'! ones personal beliefs have no regard/bearing how history, to date, has turned out... in terms of socialism! the facts are what they are despite how people view socialism. it does not matter whether one agrees with it or not. in terms of governing people, socialism, is an abject failure not to mention the brutality inflicted on mankind. so perhaps that is why mps is 'so upset'!
nice rant, was merely trying to make a point though...
I like my government without organized religion. It is corrupt enough as it is..
so you equate 'orgainized religion' with being corrupt? is this universal? why is government corrupt? how do you define 'corrupt'?
D
Diesel99
Member
The federal reserve can put whatever they want on "their notes" because they own them. They are just letting you use them for legal tender and they have no real value whatsover (fiat currency).
The US treasury gave up it's currency a while ago and let the federal reserve a private group of banks look after it for you.
You used to be able to redeem your notes at the federal reserve banks for gold up until 1933 and silver until 1964 now you can redeeme them for for squat.
The US treasury gave up it's currency a while ago and let the federal reserve a private group of banks look after it for you.
You used to be able to redeem your notes at the federal reserve banks for gold up until 1933 and silver until 1964 now you can redeeme them for for squat.
Using that rationality and the fact that every civilization before us has fallen, couldn't you conclude the same about capitalism or about any government structure?
The reality is that all governments fail. All societies fall from the inside, eventually. The only ones that don't are mostly small and more tribal in nature. Mostly having limited government too. Though, they don't have much in the terms of markets either.
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