I thought price fixing was illegal

[mountainhorse]

Except that we can come no where near meeting our own needs with oil..

AND

Do you actually think that the Domestic drilled oil will not go to the global market and be priced the same. The amount that we can add to the global supply will have a negligable effect on the price of oil/fuel/gas for our own consumers.

Upping our domestic production will not drop our prices by more than a few cents now, or in the future.

As has been pointed out by others above, it's free trade and the oil companies and domestic pump-fuel (end product) suppliers have the right, under current regulations to extract as much profit as they can.

Gas/fuel in our culture in the USA is currently a necessity... and I'm not talking about our sleds, but for our trucks that transport food, medical supplies, and more gas/fuel, airlines, air freight, diesel-electric locomotives, heating oil,.... the list goes on and on....
were addicted to it

The times HAVE changed... you will be paying a larger portion of your income to oil related needs and as a result have a smaller reserve of disposable income.

The haves and the have nots have changed... just this year...

 

[Steamboat-RN]

THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT DOES SET STANDARDS.



They also set the standard on where and how to drill on public AND private land.
OKAY people go to the local city building office and ask for a permit to build a oil refinery. You can't. And if you did you would be sued to stop building.

That goes for any type of power plant, gas, electric, coal, nuclear, wind, geothermal.

THE GOVERNMENT HAS CONTROL OF ENERGY LIKE THEY HAVE CONTROL ON WHERE YOU CAN SLED.

Want to bulild a new car ... HA HA go get permits from dozens of government agencies. Crash testing, EPA, FDA, etc.


My point is the government is already controlling it by filtering expansion, innovation, and alterrnative fuels / sources. They allow most progress on fossil fuel.

Sorry but not completely correct. If I had the financial ability, I could put a wind farm on my ranch. And the utilities are required by law to buy the excess I generate. I could build a geo-thermal generator if my property had a hot spring. (like my neighbor)
You really don't want me or any other private entity building a nuke plant.
And who but big oil can afford to build a refinery?
The big set back to building any new power plant is not the government but the enviro-nazis.
Do you really think that if Bush had anything to say about it that he would keep us from drilling in alaska, the Gulf, or off the Cali coast?
I fail to see how the government setting safety standards has anything to do with price controls on oil.

 

[Steamboat-RN]

It seems to me that it might be entirely possible for the government to put a restriction on tapping any new fields in the US that the oil be sold for domestic use. It would still be more than profitable for the investors and at the predictd volumes, it would certainly put a dent in demand for foreign oil. Maybe even put a provision for monies to be spent for alternate sources to placate the greenies.

 

[Ollie]

Except that we can come no where near meeting our own needs with oil..

AND

Do you actually think that the Domestic drilled oil will not go to the global market and be priced the same. The amount that we can add to the global supply will have a negligable effect on the price of oil/fuel/gas for our own consumers.

Actually it would not only make a dent it would make a full blown impact.
They have a field offshore that could produce 2 million barrels a day. Problem, they won't let them fully exploit it. Enviromental issues.

Anwar is expected to produce in excess of 1 million barrels a day. Problem, they won't let us drill.

The huge reserves found in north/south dakota. Problem. they won't let us get to it.

you combine E-85 with what we can produce here and we could meet our own needs. As for it entering into the global market, if the US actually set a goal and was serious about E-85 (for an immediate impact) then serious research into hydrogen fuel, then you would see the world oil markets take a serious tank.

To sit back and say the US can produce enough oil to meet our current gas needs is naive at best and ludicrus at worst. However, I think we need to fully exploit our own oil reserves combined with E-85 to get us off foreign oil. To say we can conserve enough gas to make a difference isn't realistic. China will suck up any excess we have and the prices will continue to go up. We have to find a new way to do buisness.

E-85 is not the answer, but it is a stop-gap measure till we can get hydrogen fuel cells going.

 

[mountainhorse]

Do you actually think that the Domestic drilled oil will not go to the global market and be priced the same. The amount that we can add to the global supply will have a negligable effect on the price of oil/fuel/gas for our own consumers.

As I said... the oil drilled here will go into the GLOBAL supply chain which will be used in the USA and Asia and europe and and and and ... not stay here... unless we as citizens elect officials that will keep this oil in the USA... Not likely to happen IMO...

Do you reallly think that Exxon/Mobile will price thier barrels of oil less expensively than OPEC oil when europe/Asia and other places will buy it for OPEC prices.... not likely.

Does the oil drilled in our own country cost us any less at the pump?
I have yet to see a "small town gas station" in Oaklahoma that is pumping discount domestic gas refined here in the good ole US of A.
Anyone else?

What is the price of our domestic (per barrel) oil that the refineries are charging, effecively, themselves?
How does that differ from imported oil? How does this affect the price we pay at the pumps?

Does anyone here think that Oil drilled anywere in the USA will not go to the highest bidder?

Like I said in my first post on this thread... I'm all for drilling ANWAR if the oil will stay in our own country and drop the price of our gas/fuel at the pumps and in our heating tanks.

With the current supply of the N. Slope producing 3/4 millon BPD... anwar at the highest estimate (they are all just estimates) MAY produce this same amount in 2020's how does this effect your life?

As a nation we have a large number of gas guzzlers on the road... change just that and we will see lower prices... cut the demand...

But, if you want to drive your gas guzzler (my sled is one, my truck is one, my boat is one) then be prepared to have less money in your savings account... the price will not go down.

 

[donbrown]

Sorry but not completely correct. If I had the financial ability, I could put a wind farm on my ranch. And the utilities are required by law to buy the excess I generate. I could build a geo-thermal generator if my property had a hot spring. (like my neighbor)
.

Where I am at there are restrictions on windfarms, so many acres per height and size requirements. Plus many electrical restrictions. So where you are you can build a windmill in your shed put it up and sync it to the grid and be done with it? No more problems?

Hot spring on your property ? Near Lake Isabella there are many Hot Springs on BLM land. One so big there was a bidding war for it. Without modifications the hot spring could have produced enough heat and electricity for 100's of homes. What happened the Hot Spring was modified by home steaders as a big hot tub someone got sick and they sealed it up. Yeap the US Gov't put a big concrete block over it.

You really don't want me or any other private entity building a nuke plant.
And who but big oil can afford to build a refinery?
The big set back to building any new power plant is not the government but the enviro-nazis.
Do you really think that if Bush had anything to say about it that he would keep us from drilling in alaska, the Gulf, or off the Cali coast?.

If a prisoner can make moonshine in his toilet we can make a refinery unless your telling me some crack head sharing rooms with his mate in lock 23D is smarter than us?

As far as a nuke plant, they are very simple to make / operate as long as you have the fuel. In the 1950's the US Army had many of them around the country and were made semi-portable by truck and small watercraft.

In fact they put one on a barge sent it down to Panama and ran it for a long time with any problems.

I fail to see how the government setting safety standards has anything to do with price controls on oil.

Uh huh right, thats why the government court system refuses to hear the argument on microwave and sonar technology yet allows an average of 10 years of litigation for a commercial power plant feasibility study. Do you think 10 years of litigation is free?

Thats why people want the aerated fuel in the winter ??? That's why we want to find out who is not using ethanol required additive when we go fill up the sled ???

Ever heard of MTBE ?

Since 1992, MTBE has been used at higher concentrations in some gasoline to fulfill the oxygenate requirements set by Congress in the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments. (A few cities, such as Denver, used oxygenates (MTBE) at higher concentrations during the wintertime in the late 1980's.)

You want to have a real headache look at what happens when you heat liquids at low temps in cans and clear plastic bottles. Or expose them to UV rays. But don't worry the government has our butt covered. The most harmful ones say store in a cool place, but don't say to eat it if it gets hot or tastes funny. Is Benzene a good thing? Is it as good as Roman plumbing?


I am just not so happy on how the government stays out of our business and protects us with safety laws for our life, religion, beliefs, food, energy, music and sound of the exhaust from a sled. So again my point is the government needs to change this so we can progress with more alternative fuels.

Do you get any idea of government control using safety standards to control individuals and industry or are ya still in the dark?

 

[donbrown]

Except that we can come no where near meeting our own needs with oil..

AND

Do you actually think that the Domestic drilled oil will not go to the global market and be priced the same. The amount that we can add to the global supply will have a negligable effect on the price of oil/fuel/gas for our own consumers.

Upping our domestic production will not drop our prices by more than a few cents now, or in the future.

As has been pointed out by others above, it's free trade and the oil companies and domestic pump-fuel (end product) suppliers have the right, under current regulations to extract as much profit as they can.

Gas/fuel in our culture in the USA is currently a necessity... and I'm not talking about our sleds, but for our trucks that transport food, medical supplies, and more gas/fuel, airlines, air freight, diesel-electric locomotives, heating oil,.... the list goes on and on....
were addicted to it

The times HAVE changed... you will be paying a larger portion of your income to oil related needs and as a result have a smaller reserve of disposable income.

The haves and the have nots have changed... just this year...

I agree. Look at what happened down under when they diverted the river from the northern territory to the south plains thru a mountain paid by the taxpayers all with the promise of cheaper food for Australia.
Wiped out the California Valencia Orange crop and introduced a new place where alcoholics can buy 2 buck bottles of wine at Traders Joe grocery store. ... all imported from Austalia. And yep Australia food prices were not isolated from global pressure.

 

[Dare-Ya]

This is a link for those of you who can't quite grasp the effect of all the enviro nuts on our economy and way of life. Face it, they have an agenda and are going to sue their way to achieving it. Yes, we need to ween ourselves off our addiction to oil, but at what cost. We have the means to help our future right here, right now. Even if our oil enters the global market, supply drives the cost down. If opec knows we have the ability to use our own oil, don't you think they'd start pumpin more? We should drill now, while exploring alternatives.

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/politics/240802.php

Even the Czech President gets it!


Czech President Klaus ready to debate Gore on climate change
M&C ^ | 5/27/08

Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 3:51:34 PM by Dawnsblood

Gore a former US vice president who has become a leading international voice in the cause against global warming, was co-winner of this year's Nobel Peace Prize. Gore's effort was highlighted by his Oscar winning documentary film An Inconvienent Truth.

Klaus, an economist, said he opposed the 'climate alarmism' perpetuated by environmentalism trying to impose their ideals, comparing it to the decades of communist rule he experienced growing up in Soviet-dominated Czechoslovakia.

'Like their (communist) predecessors, they will be certain that they have the right to sacrifice man and his freedom to make their idea reality,' he said.

'In the past, it was in the name of the Marxists or of the proletariat - this time, in the name of the planet,' he added.

Klaus said a free market should be used to address environmental concerns and said he oppposed as unrealistic regulations or greenhouse gas capping systems designed to reduce the impact of climate change.

'It could be even true that we are now at a stage where mere facts, reason and truths are powerless in the face of the global warming propaganda,' he said.

Klaus alleged that the global warming was being championed by scientists and other environmentalists whose careers and funding requires selling the public on global warming.

'It is in the hands of climatologists and other related scientists who are highly motivated to look in one direction only,' Klaus said

 

[Ollie]

I hate to say it guys, but..............

you will NEVER acheive the reduction in gas and oil use in the US by conservation.
Ain't gonna happen.
Are you going to give up your trucks, sleds, boats, bikes, etc.......

Everyone switches to little 4 cylinder cars.
Not gonna happen.

We have to change WHAT we burn to run our vehicles.
E-85 isn't the answer but it sure as heck is a good way to help reduce our dependance on foreign oil. Hydrogen is (imo) the answer. It will take years to make it possible to produce and sell to the public.

The enviros own the government, they bought em, lock stock and barrel. Deal with it. We elect em, they buy em.
We aren't going to be able to build refineries, we aren't going to be able to drill. So we need to change. So, if you are willing to give up all your toys, go for it.
I will push for E-85 and continue to drive my truck and sleds.

 

[Steamboat-RN]

There are plenty of places where it is perfectly legal to erect wind turbines. (including my land) It is a multi-million dollar industry and growing.
You can't equate portable military nuke plants to some home grown reactor.
And comparing the distilation of ETOH in a crude still to refining crude into high grade gas is like comparing a string and two cans to a mass communication system.

I for one am glad that we don't have a bunch of Homer Simpsons building nukes and refineries.

Why is it that everyone is ready to blame Bush and the evil government for the oil prices. You can bet the farm that if they were given the green light, that they would plow up the tundra and squash endangered animals by the thousands to develop Anwar.
It is morons like Gore and the rest of the enviro-zealots that are restricting exploration, development and production.
George wil be gone soon and his croonies with him. But we will still have high gas prices and even fewer places to ride.

 

[Dogmeat]

As I said... the oil drilled here will go into the GLOBAL supply chain which will be used in the USA and Asia and europe and and and and ... not stay here... unless we as citizens elect officials that will keep this oil in the USA... Not likely to happen IMO...

.

I guess I don't see the logic in this. Let's say the price of a barrel of oil is fixed, and you have a market for it locally without paying shipping costs overseas whatnot. Why in the world would they sell crude overseas when demand here is so high? I don't see this happening at all. Even with China's demand on the rise, the US still consumes over twice as much oil per day as China ...

I don't see why in the world we would export any of it.

 

[Hardass]

Price fixing

Hey on the news 2 days ago they announced that american arlines was going to charge extra for each bag. So you say, they also said if all or most of the arlines adopt this practice they will stay with it if they do not they will discontinue it? Is that price fixing? I;d say so. It;s out there in all kinds of dagrees and has been for a long time.

 

[mountainhorse]

I don't see why in the world we would export any of it.

It would probably never leave our shores... but the futures would AND it would be priced with the other that we would be importing.

The oil companies are not going to charge less here than they can make elsewhere just because they like the American people... There profit margin will be bigger because they wont have to transport it, but for pricing it, it will be the same as it is now... The world price.

The oil does not have to leave our shores... it just has to be transferred on a balance sheet.

 

[Dare-Ya]

Nobody is saying, let the oil companies runamuck and do what they please. I'm saying cut the bull*&#t. I wonder how much money has been spent in courts across the nation, solely by environmentalists bringing lawsuits for one reason or another. I'd like to have a fraction of it in my pocket. I'm sure I would be rich.

 

[mountainhorse]

I don’t think I'd listen to either Gore or the Czech prez...

Two extremists...

Do I need one nut-bag to balance the other???

The Czech governments’ industrial policy and environmental law is a current-day reenactment of Love Canal.

Dare-Ya: I'm saying cut the bull*&#t.

YESSSSSSS!!!!!
===============================================================


If corporations like Exxon, BASF, Hooker chemical, Dow, Dupont and Monsanto had their way... you would be dealing with circus babies in your cribs that make the Hunchback look like Shania Twain.

Environmentalists are not bad... heck, most of the sledders I know are environmentalists... they take care of the riding areas, they pick up trash on the trails, they don’t let their buddies leave an empty six pack in the backcountry.... They don’t shoot animals just because they can and leave their carcass rotting on the trails, they would not let their neighbor dump motor oil into the sewer, they would not let their neighbor burn plastic in a garbage can in their backyard. They would not let Hyatt hotels put up a 25 story building on Half Dome or let a sewer plant dump untreated overflow into their local fishing stream….

NUT JOB extremist Environmentalist.... you know the ones... those people that get the most press... those environmentalists are dangerous... So are the huge corporations that don’t give a rats azz how they make a buck at our expense...

Amoral developers are on the other extreme from the Enviro-Nazis... they both suck... they both get the press and there are the majority of the good people in our country that get caught holding the bag for these douche bags.

I have family members that were directly affected by Hooker chemicals greed and horrible environmental disasters. My father was an engineer for BASF which was single handedly responsible for destroying 100's of miles of the Rhine river... Corporations will not govern themselves if history is any indication.

Are all corporations like that, NO.. Are SOME?... Yes... Can those few cause major problems for you, me and our children... heck yes.

Don’t trust your government

AND

Don’t trust your corporations who sway the government.

We as citizens of this great country give them the privilege of earning their profits in our country; we need to hold them to a high standard. How do we do that…. Thru OUR government and law enforcement… BY THE PEOPLE, FOR THE PEOPLE !!!!

Proud to be an American…. And proud to hold those people to a higher standard!!

There are too many people on the fringe, so hatefull of the oposing fringe/extreme that run completly over the MAJORITY of people like you and me in the middle...

Gas below $3 per gallon again... probably not EVER in our country again... but I hope I'm wrong... I really do.

 

[mountainhorse]

Whats the difference between a dead lawer in the street and a dead snake???

The snake has skid marks in front if it.

 

[donbrown]

There are plenty of places where it is perfectly legal to erect wind turbines. (including my land) It is a multi-million dollar industry and growing.
You can't equate portable military nuke plants to some home grown reactor.
And comparing the distilation of ETOH in a crude still to refining crude into high grade gas is like comparing a string and two cans to a mass communication system.

I for one am glad that we don't have a bunch of Homer Simpsons building nukes and refineries.

Why is it that everyone is ready to blame Bush and the evil government for the oil prices. You can bet the farm that if they were given the green light, that they would plow up the tundra and squash endangered animals by the thousands to develop Anwar.
It is morons like Gore and the rest of the enviro-zealots that are restricting exploration, development and production.
George wil be gone soon and his croonies with him. But we will still have high gas prices and even fewer places to ride.

Who said anything about anything homegrown? What's so bad about homegrown?

I operated a Nuclear Power Facility and apologize for thinking anyone could operate one. I figuire boondocking and sled maintenance is a skill and a sled can be compared to any closed Rankine cycle but maybe some of you just ride and perform no maintenance and repair. All those army drafted guys during the 50's and 60's who were given little training and field manuals are very special men. Of course there is Idaho Falls but 4 out of thousands is not a good thing.

As far as making a distillery ... who's talking about what level of fuel a refinery must make? I'm not talking about making Xylene. I have friends with a couple old barrels making biodiesel from deep fat waste.

Don't sell good ole' American know how and our abilities short.

I don't really care what political party you want to blame. I am saying the entire legal, judicial, legislative, and executive branches of our government are inept and not a system when it comes to issues they are unable or unwilling to let proceed. They fail to see the forest from the trees. They are causing this problem in the long run by not legalizing, legislation, normalizing and standardsizing an institutionalized alternative energy sources.

The interesting thing to see is the last energy crisis the USA controlled 70% of the world's wealth. Today it is less than 30%.

The reason the oil produced here will be shipped overseas is the result of government controls. A barrel of oil is an exchangable world government standard to trade crude. Hence you can trade the crude in Alaska for crude in say Mexico without moving it and still leave the country. Go try to send some plywood to Japan and see what the Japanese government did to slow the import of USA lumber.

Countries like China , a communist country sets price restrictions on oil. If fact oil refineries in China are getting less profit because the price of oil is rising and they can't pass the price increase onto the Chinese people.

 

[snowmanx]

Any thinking person is praying for $10 gasoline. It (higher fuel prices) will cause the biggest boom in infrastructure spending since the end of the Great Depression.

QUOTE]


Sorry, but that's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard in all the debates about this issue that I have read...makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!

 

[Beels]

I can't believe what I'm reading from some people. Lobbying for communism?

 

[donbrown]

Any thinking person is praying for $10 gasoline. It (higher fuel prices) will cause the biggest boom in infrastructure spending since the end of the Great Depression.

QUOTE]


Sorry, but that's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard in all the debates about this issue that I have read...makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!

At $10 a gallon was the USA thinking about alternative energy???
Or instead putting superchargers on 500 plus cc engines. Raising trucks 2 feet in the air and adding larger diameter tires to anything they could? Figuiring out the maximum weight and length a vehicle could pull ? People did not care if their truck got 8MPG or 18MPG and wondered why a truck was getting 27MPG cause people assumed a 27MPG truck has no power.

When a product goes up in price ... to a level considered ridiclous by the masses ... innovative people search , find and develope substitute products to make things cheaper, easier and more reliable.

Where's the innovative and competitive spirit?

In economice there are substitute products. For refined fossil fuel based oil and diesel the substitutes would be, organic gas and diesel , also LNG plus others.

So my argument is gas at higher fuel prices MAKE people seek alternative fuels and more economical sources of transportation / heating etc..


I even heard rumors people buy 4 stroke sleds so they have less maintenance and better fuel mileage.