I thought price fixing was illegal

[Dogmeat]

start drilling under the rockies. but hey with this bunch of idiots in control they would still increase the price of oil even tho there would be enough oil to drop the price to 10 bucks a barrel

Most of the easy oil to find in the rockies has already been found ... If you haven't noticed, there's been a *HUGE* boom in natural gas production in this region of the country in the last 10 years or so. Much moreso than the 80's and 90's. A lot of the oil in the rockies is more costly to refine so producers don't get a very good price for it. Most of them are just producing gas as it's relativley easy to produce natural gas out of tight gas sands with current technology.

edit: I see you're from Canada.

Maybe you're right, the Canadian rockies might be a totally different story

 

[Disco Dan Richter]

Good TO Go- since when is it government job to fix this? Since taxpayers are flippin the bill for them to! WOW, that was hard.

Lest you forget, we all, yes that is right, we all need gas to get to work.

Lets all remember this fact, gasoline and fuel are neccesity's, not luxuries, so it should not put on a hardship of any sort, government needs to step up and fix this.

I have always said that the government, as long as it is a democracy, should be in control of the neccesity portion of americans. No single person or company should profit from this as it is not a choice for all of us, it is a must have. That being said, keep your restaraunts and gift shops to the general public because at least I have a choice of what I want to eat and what crap to decorate my house with, but when it comes to driving to work, to pay bill...............and taxes............dont penalize me ok?

 

[snowmanx]

Good TO Go- since when is it government job to fix this? Since taxpayers are flippin the bill for them to! WOW, that was hard.

Lest you forget, we all, yes that is right, we all need gas to get to work.

Lets all remember this fact, gasoline and fuel are neccesity's, not luxuries, so it should not put on a hardship of any sort, government needs to step up and fix this.

I have always said that the government, as long as it is a democracy, should be in control of the neccesity portion of americans. No single person or company should profit from this as it is not a choice for all of us, it is a must have. That being said, keep your restaraunts and gift shops to the general public because at least I have a choice of what I want to eat and what crap to decorate my house with, but when it comes to driving to work, to pay bill...............and taxes............dont penalize me ok?

YES, FINALLY ANOTHER THAT SEES IT EXACTLY THE WAY I DO. Look back on some of my posts on this issue, it is exactly been what I have been saying. I wish the government would do somthing about this, but it is doubtful that they will!!!

 

[Wolfrun]

A lot of thought has gone into this thread. I am proud of all of you guys. I have got to go to work now to earn money for fuel, thanks.

 

[Ollie]

Dogmeat.....

With oil being sold on the commodities (sp?) market it is bought on speculation.

Lets say you own a train company. You need to insure you have fuel for your trains.
So you "buy" the fuel before it is even made. That way you know you will have it. Heres the problem.
If the market is scared or there is a fear of supply interuption then you are going to bid high to get as much as you can to insure you have enough to run your trains.
If I own a trucking company I am going to bid to get my fuel also. So now we will be "speculating" as to what it will take to buy the fuel to run our companies.

In a way it is still supply and demand but it isn't since the people selling the oil (they are the ones that control the stocks) arn't really giving the people a true picture of what is going on. They want the prices high because they make a bigger "cut" of the money. Their commision if you will. The countries selling the oil have no problem with this since they make more money also.

I believe it used to be the countries themselves that would cut deals with the countries selling the oil. So say the US would sign a contract with Saudi Arabia to sell us X barrels of oil for X amount of time. When they moved from this to the stock market is when the chit hit the fan.

 

[Good to Go]

Lets all remember this fact, gasoline and fuel are neccesity's, not luxuries, so it should not put on a hardship of any sort, government needs to step up and fix this.

Addiction and desire don't equal necessity... I realize it's a fine line, but it's NOT the government's responsibility. And I dare say, be careful for what one wishes for. Socialism is nothing more than the desire to be babysat.

Can anyone really give an example of where government was able to "step up and fix this", and it worked..? Anyone really willing to take that chance?? That's scary.

 

[Dogmeat]

Dogmeat.....

With oil being sold on the commodities (sp?) market it is bought on speculation.

Lets say you own a train company. You need to insure you have fuel for your trains.
So you "buy" the fuel before it is even made. That way you know you will have it. Heres the problem.
If the market is scared or there is a fear of supply interuption then you are going to bid high to get as much as you can to insure you have enough to run your trains.
If I own a trucking company I am going to bid to get my fuel also. So now we will be "speculating" as to what it will take to buy the fuel to run our companies.

In a way it is still supply and demand but it isn't since the people selling the oil (they are the ones that control the stocks) arn't really giving the people a true picture of what is going on. They want the prices high because they make a bigger "cut" of the money. Their commision if you will. The countries selling the oil have no problem with this since they make more money also.

I believe it used to be the countries themselves that would cut deals with the countries selling the oil. So say the US would sign a contract with Saudi Arabia to sell us X barrels of oil for X amount of time. When they moved from this to the stock market is when the chit hit the fan.

OK ... I see.

So when did this actually happen? Was moving oil and gas to a commodities market something Bush did or was this a decision of the Fed, or Nasdaq, or who?

 

[donbrown]

OK ... I see.

So when did this actually happen? Was moving oil and gas to a commodities market something Bush did or was this a decision of the Fed, or Nasdaq, or who?

This movement to the oil and gas to commodties happened 20 years ago.
Since it is an election year lets blame or give credit to the moron in office.

As far as the last guy ... what a moron .. gas was under $10 A GALLON , and the internet was introduced for public use by the prior BUSH and all he did was have affairs.

We are thinking too SHORT TERM for a TIME FRAME. WE ARE ABOUT INSTANT GRATIFICATION AND THE QUICKEST WAY TO LOWER THE PRICE OF FUEL IS TO REDUCE USING IT.

THE QUICKEST WAY IS INVOLUNTARY AND WHAT COMES TO MIND IS A RECESSION !!!

If we are serious about reducing fuel they ( the government) would allow better access to substitute fuels and A LONG TERM PLAN WITH TURNKEY SOLUTIONS.

 

[donbrown]

Dogmeat.....

With oil being sold on the commodities (sp?) market it is bought on speculation.

Lets say you own a train company. You need to insure you have fuel for your trains.
So you "buy" the fuel before it is even made. That way you know you will have it. Heres the problem.
If the market is scared or there is a fear of supply interuption then you are going to bid high to get as much as you can to insure you have enough to run your trains.
If I own a trucking company I am going to bid to get my fuel also. So now we will be "speculating" as to what it will take to buy the fuel to run our companies.

In a way it is still supply and demand but it isn't since the people selling the oil (they are the ones that control the stocks) arn't really giving the people a true picture of what is going on. They want the prices high because they make a bigger "cut" of the money. Their commision if you will. The countries selling the oil have no problem with this since they make more money also.

I believe it used to be the countries themselves that would cut deals with the countries selling the oil. So say the US would sign a contract with Saudi Arabia to sell us X barrels of oil for X amount of time. When they moved from this to the stock market is when the chit hit the fan.

But ... right now oil futures are higher than the cost of fuel today.

So speculators are paying more for the future price of fuel than it is now. There are many ways to make money that way. Take delivery of fuel today and hold it for delivery tomorrow hoping everyone else does and make a shortage.
Actual supply and demand "perception" shows a shortage hench higher prices.

The last and common is the leverage the thing you buy oil with .
US DOLLARS and get the dollar to drop.

So thinking outside the box with OPEC ... buy the oil and TRASH TALK THE USA DRIVING DOWN THE DOLLAR hence doulble winner !!!

 

[donbrown]

We will actually benefit greatly the higher gas prices go, too. This will finally cause us to get serious about infrastructure changes. Not much has been done since the 1973 crisis for Americans to get religion on this.

We couldn't understand why nothing was done back then. As JFK said, "The time to fix the roof is when the sun is shining".

Any thinking person is praying for $10 gasoline. It (higher fuel prices) will cause the biggest boom in infrastructure spending since the end of the Great Depression.

As far as the green movement ... what a load of green crap. People are just trying to get the new new thing to sell it.

Economics is simple LEAST INPUT MOST OUTPUT

If you make something easier to use and cheaper the masses will eventually use it cause big government and lots of people need a K.I.S.S. Anything else is a fad.

 

[mountainhorse]

Good to Go: Can anyone really give an example of where government was able to "step up and fix this", and it worked

Look at The Korean, Vietnam and Iraq wars for that answer. I have family members that have served in all three.

So when did this actually happen?

This happend when the Foriegn and Domestic oil producers hired lobbyists, (using whatever "clean" or "dirty" tactics they could) to convince our elected officials to let this happen. The beneficiaries of this spec market are the producers of the oil, foreign and domestic.

DEFINITION OF: Lobbying includes all attempts to influence legislators and officials, whether by other legislators, constituents or organized groups.

I agree that most of the consumer "green movement" is crap... People buy the Prius so they can have some "enviro street cred" when they drive thier clients to show a home for sale instead of having to invest in a new Cadillac, BMW or Merc. The only ones that I respect in the "green movement" are those that actually DO try to live without driving to work, use less energy, and not buying a lot of crap they dont need etc... at least they are not being hypocrates like the majority of "green people" out there that tout thier values when it suits them. Driving your smoking Westfalia camper 500 miles to a green-peace gathering doesn't hold water with me.

 

[Good to Go]

Look at The Korean, Vietnam and Iraq wars for that answer. I have family members that have served in all three.

I stand corrected. I should have clarified: Except for military. Given the tools, there is nothing our military can't do.

I was speaking, of course, of social/economic programs.

 

[mountainhorse]

Have a look at this timeline to look into world oil markets since the 70's., it makes for interesting reading if you can stay focused on it "as a whole"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_world_oil_market_events_%281970-2005%29

Anybody reading this remember the "oil crisis" in the early 70's when cars were lined up for blocks to get gas? That was a crisis of perception and usery in agreements between OPEC nations and Western fuel producers...

 

[Steamboat-RN]

Look at The Korean, Vietnam and Iraq wars for that answer. I have family members that have served in all three. /QUOTE]

I'm sorry but did I miss something? Korea and Vietnam are shining examples of why we can't depend on government to "step up and fix this". The jury is still out on Iraq. ( I served in one and had/ have family in the others.)

The government is best that governs least. Period. We can't expect the government to fix all the ills of society without giving up freedom. Didn't work for the USSR so why think it will work in the USA?

Does anyone really think that our government is capable of stepping in and making a sane, logical and fair solution to oil pricing? Anyone...?

I still haven't seen a post that outlines what Bush should have done to fix this.

It's easy to quarterback from the cheap seats.

 

[snopropanther]

Most of the easy oil to find in the rockies has already been found ... If you haven't noticed, there's been a *HUGE* boom in natural gas production in this region of the country in the last 10 years or so. Much moreso than the 80's and 90's. A lot of the oil in the rockies is more costly to refine so producers don't get a very good price for it. Most of them are just producing gas as it's relativley easy to produce natural gas out of tight gas sands with current technology.

edit: I see you're from Canada.

Maybe you're right, the Canadian rockies might be a totally different story

the rockies are loaded i have heard, the west coast is full, and they just started drilling again in southern manitoba where they just found another load under ground.

 

[mountainhorse]

We can't expect the government to fix all the ills of society without giving up freedom.

EXACTLY!!

The problem is, the Govt. in conjunction with corporate and lobby groups have been "fixing" this for a while now. It's not like our legislators, demo and repub alike, will be involved any more than they already are.

The Pork Barrel is deep my friends, and well entrenched, and affects us in ways that are so complex that a very small group of people actually understand the whole picture. The propaganda that is floating around the "Business of Oil" on all sides is designed to confuse the masses and put out sound-bites that pander to the basic leanings of groups.

In the global energy business, which is what it is now, there are no republicans and democrats, just the rich people and the rest of us.

Make no mistake in thinking that ANYONE can separate our oil or domestic market from the global market. It is a global market and the players are well defined, both Western and Eastern cartels.

ANY and All oil in the world is up for the highest bidder, and right now that is the USA.

Watch out when anyone mentions "privatizing" any water municipality in the future. We actually do NEED water.

Steamboat-RN: I'm sorry but did I miss something? Korea and Vietnam are shining examples of why we can't depend on government to "step up and fix this". The jury is still out on Iraq. ( I served in one and had/ have family in the others.)

More along my line of thinking. Only time will tell if the course we've set in the middle east will reap benefits to the PEOPLE of our country, both in terms of global security (economic and national security) and the economic viability of our country. Lets not forget to also base our decisions on what kind of a world we want to leave as a legacy for our children and further.

 

[justadude]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bush help make oil a traded commodity??
Doing that surely didn't help.

Look at The Korean, Vietnam and Iraq wars for that answer. I have family members that have served in all three. /QUOTE]

I'm sorry but did I miss something? Korea and Vietnam are shining examples of why we can't depend on government to "step up and fix this". The jury is still out on Iraq. ( I served in one and had/ have family in the others.)

The government is best that governs least. Period. We can't expect the government to fix all the ills of society without giving up freedom. Didn't work for the USSR so why think it will work in the USA?

Does anyone really think that our government is capable of stepping in and making a sane, logical and fair solution to oil pricing? Anyone...?

I still haven't seen a post that outlines what Bush should have done to fix this.

It's easy to quarterback from the cheap seats.

 

[mountainhorse]

That is not my quote you are posting above this....

 

[donbrown]

THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT DOES SET STANDARDS.

Width of roads,
how many / type starways in the world trade center,
maximum speed limit,
type of lumber,
dimension weights measures etc.
size of ships,
bridges,
signs,
radio waves,
internet,
television,
wht is hazardous and what is "safe"
satellites
airplanes
rockets
weapons
metals
stocks
bonds


They also set the standard on where and how to drill on public AND private land.
OKAY people go to the local city building office and ask for a permit to build a oil refinery. You can't. And if you did you would be sued to stop building.

That goes for any type of power plant, gas, electric, coal, nuclear, wind, geothermal.

THE GOVERNMENT HAS CONTROL OF ENERGY LIKE THEY HAVE CONTROL ON WHERE YOU CAN SLED.

Want to bulild a new car ... HA HA go get permits from dozens of government agencies. Crash testing, EPA, FDA, etc.


My point is the government is already controlling it by filtering expansion, innovation, and alterrnative fuels / sources. They allow most progress on fossil fuel.

 

[Ollie]

It is easy to set standards and control something that is internal to the country.
How do you tell someone you will sell us your oil at below market value?
They just laugh and go sell it somewhere else. Just as Saudi Arabia did when Bush asked them to up production.

The only way to get the price of oil to come down is DRILL ON US SOIL. Then we can control it. As long as we continue in our naive belief that we can import most of our oil and then set the prices on that oil, you will continue to see the price of gas go thru the roof.

We need to tap the oil we have, we need to build refineries. If we did both of those, THEN we can set standards on what you will get for that oil.
Till then, it is pizzing into the wind. You don't really get anything except pizzed on.