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I saw these posts in another section, I think it's wrong.....

Ski-dooin, sledfvr I completely agree with you guys about starting to lose hope we can win.
Tedd, your a rep for SAWS right? With the unity you've seen amongst us sleders do we really give you hope???
From what I've seen on the forums people just seem to lazy or just don't care to try and fight back.
And the fact that the FS themselves are trying to get rid of us....sorry but we're SOL.
I can't believe that sledfvr got a ticket for being in a proposed test area!!!
How the he11 were you supposed to know?
Sounds to me like the FS just needs more money.
So how much was this ticket?
I think that's the biggest bunch of BS I've heard happen to one of us yet.
 
The ticket was $175 for the first offense and they double after that and can kick you off of National Forest completely if they so choose. I sent the money to Atlanta, Georgia and the check was made out to Central Violations Bureau. I was also issued the ticket by my best man's (in my wedding) brother inlaw.
I always thought this fight for guns and land would be between "us" and "them", now I see that plenty of the people I grew up with can be bought out easily.
 
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I heard it from the F.S. in my talks with them over the Gallatin Forest Plan, "We close certain sections to non motorized and the boundaries are not respected, if we close the whole area it is easier to police and ensure compliance." I also believe in certain areas they can impound your ride and you loose your sled. Deep down you guys gotta know it's not right.

If this is true and even though I don't think it matters if we follow their stupid little rules they're gonna shut us out eventually, I do believe that it will buy us more time if we cooperate. The statement does make sense.
 
Did you guys read the page from the "anti's " website that was in sixpointbulls post "Send a message to our friends" in this section. They talk about reporting tracks and motorized use in closed areas. I don't know who you think your getting "even" with by riding out of bounds. I'll bet it makes them happy when they report the incident. Knowing that we are helping to hammer the nails in our own coffin.
 
I didn't realize at the time that I was in an out of bounds area. Now, I will be much more careful and read the maps before I ride. The boundaries are not clearly marked.

I was somewhat reluctant to post on here because I didn't want to divide us more than we already are. I just want all of us to realize that we are in the same boat. We aren't fighting each other. If we can come together to fight this then it may buy us a little more time. But, if we argue amongst ourselves it will solve nothing. I was just posting how this closure has personally affected me. XXL, I agree with many of the things you have said.

One of the people riding with me took it to court and about two weeks before the hearing he received a phone call and they would settle out of court for half of the original $175 ticket. He said no thanks that money wasn't the issue, it was the principal. Again, I post this as helpful info to fellow snowester's. I am not saying that the answer is to ride in closed area's. I don't know what the answer is other than supporting local groups to buy our time.
 
Hope?

S
Tedd, your a rep for SAWS right? With the unity you've seen amongst us sledders do we really give you hope???
From what I've seen on the forums people just seem to lazy or just don't care to try and fight back.

The answer to your question is yes, it does give me as well as the other SAWS reps hope that things will change. The number of people that support the access groups like SAWS means absolutely nothing if those members don't do anything to help, i.e. write letters to there elected officials explaining in a civil and respectful way how they want there lands managed. As stated in a previous post, we are now fighting internally in this country because one group doesn't like the other group. The problem is the other group has way more people that take a minute and hand write a well thought out letter and mail it the old fashioned way to there elected officials and persuade them to be on there side. Our elected officials are just that, and they will work for what the MAJORITY of the people in there area want. If the majority want us closed out, because we don't take the time to let them know what WE want then that is exactly what is going to happen.
Now, that is putting a lot of faith in our elected officials which in it's self is probably a lost cause. But the fact that we as the people have the ability to vote them out of office if there are enough of us that don't like what they are doing should be enough to cause them to do what the majority wants them to do. So I ask you, How do we become the majority?
 
I know this has been brought up before and maybe it's time we start doing some harassing but WHY don't the big 4 donate to helping the sport to survive. I would think it would be in their interest to help keep public lands open so people and continue to buy and ride their products.

How hard has this been pursued?
Even if they donated to BRC which seems to cover everywhere and everyone.
 
Just a little clarification!

Did you guys read the page from the "anti's " website that was in sixpointbulls post "Send a message to our friends" in this section. They talk about reporting tracks and motorized use in closed areas. I don't know who you think your getting "even" with by riding out of bounds. I'll bet it makes them happy when they report the incident. Knowing that we are helping to hammer the nails in our own coffin.

Why do you assume it has anything to do with getting even?? I think that is a little narrow minded. It has absolutely nothing to do with getting even. It has everything to do with being out there alone away from all the others.

I don't live in Montana so I don't have to abide by that BS rule of Nov 15 to March 15 and just for the record if I did live there I would be riding well before and after if the snow permits. With that said I live/ride in WA state. Last winter I chose to ride prior to Thanksgiving. We stuck to the roads and a 4x4 trail that I know of. On the way out a Forest Ranger stopped me @ the x-mas tree permit station and informed me that I wasn't supposed to be snowmobiling yet. I asked why. He went on to tell me that HE hadn't started the season. (Just who the HELL does he think he is anyhow???) Well he went on to say that we were in danger cause of the vehicles driving on the road could hit us (yeah right, in 3+ ft of snow, they all waved at us as we went by) also we shouldn't be riding in the meadows cause there isn't enough snow (the rule is 18" of coverage, we were safe from damaging meadow grasses, we stuck to roads and trails just to be safe though) I then told him that we didn't ride in the meadows just to be sure. He then asked where we did ride. I told him that we rode the 4x4 trail, which we did. He then infomed us of the dangers of encountering 4x4s. I then informed him of the signage at the head of the 4x4 trail which states that the trail is closed to 4x4s after Nov 14th. He then turned to his co-worker with a stumped look on his face. Turned to me and said that was a good question. No one has ever asked that one before. Hmmmmm. I am the director of snowmobiling up here and I have't heard that one before. Well, have a good day. We waved and took off.

I guess that was a little off topic but does relate to the topic in some ways. The people who dictate what we can and can't do really don't have any clue. They aren't out there. They don't know. More often than not, they sit in an office back on the east coast and listen to some "greenie" lobbiest and side with them cause they just got a membership to their favorite golf course just for their vote. Even the ones that are out there such as the ranger really don't know whats up.

I'm not for poaching to the point that it gets our area shut down and don't fully condone it but, I do feel for those who have their entire riding areas closed and wouldn't ask them to stop because of it. And I wouldn't judge them for it either. What right do I have to judge others actions????

I do contribute to SAWS. I have written letters (only to get some greenie response back about a snomobile ruining the congressmans trip through a groomed trail with his kids and he was voting the other way). Tedd mentioned that it takes the majority. I feel it is too late. We aren't in the majority in any fashion and I don't ever see that changing. We can't compete in the #'s or financial categories.
 
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Not Cryin' Here

"I think that you are incorrect in you opinion that 1 won't matter and can't make a difference. There are too many examples where one person has made a significant impact. Examples: Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Abe Lincoln, even Hitler."

Bad examples for you, good examples for me as everyone mentioned here except Hitler used an organized fallowing to achieve their adgenda. The three that did, reached admirable achievments........and as for Hitler, we all know how that turned out.


Bottom line - Quit being juvinile cry babies and if you want to fight the problem, organize a group of fallowers and mount a constructive argument to support your cause....without creating a negative impact on ALL other snowmobilers nationwide. Your actions reflect on US ALL.

Mr. Extreme,
I think you need to take another look in your history book. They all started with only one and gained more "fallowers" as they went along. However, I am not trying to compare myself to any one of them. I was just illustrating a point that it can be started with only one and the start doesn't have to be through legal channels.

What about group rides through wilderness areas to make a point type of thing???? In a respectable fashion of course :) More specifically, protesting the land closures in a very public fashion. Drawing in the media. Using the "greenie" tactics against them. What did they do before they started receiving a bunch of donations to their organizations to start lobbying?

If you really don't want to crate a negative impact then how about we all just quit snowmobiling cause in a lot of "greenie" circles any form of it, in any location, constitutes a negative impact. Your never gonna make them happy. Not ever. Why even try?? They don't!
 
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Uller,

I agree that they all started as one and gained a fallowing. However I don't believe that was the issue of this thread, to recruit other snowmobilers to fallow him into the wilderness. It was to rebel against the closer by doing whatever he wants. Is this the answer to combat closure? No, so what is it doing? Hurting ALL snowmobilers by giving fuel to the opposition.
 
This thread was started by XXL to state his disapproval of another snowmobiler and where/when he rides. Then Tedd chimed in also stating his disapproval. Understandable.
Mr. Dooinit then begins to defend himself and be much more specific about what he has done and where and then you and many others begin the attack.

sled_guy "So is riding in "posted" areas a form of civil disobedience? Is it maybe someone taking a page from the enviro-extremes' own handbook and applying it to the other side?

Probably not, but it's an interesting thought... at what point do you stop working inside the system and start becoming the extremist?

Probably too deep of a discussion to have on Snowest."

I have strong feelings about this topic and chose to give my .02. I wanted to start the "too deep discussion" that sled-guy mentioned. I think its time. Do you want me to start another thread for it? This one has turned into it though, without my help.

My point is that they don't need "help" their basic argument doesn't need help. Just our existance is all the ammo they really need. Maybe, just maybe, if each and every motorized user group (mtn bikes included) got together and pooled the funds and efforts we could get this to a more level playing ground. I don't see that happening though cause each is really only concerned about their own interests.

If you think that it is really hurting all snowmobilers I am sorry but I disagree. I think that the "greenies" are hurting all snowmobilers and your feeling would be better directed at the "others" out there that are trying to shut us down. All your doing is dividing the Snowmobiling group into seperate factions. I believe that you should support all snowmobiling, period. I called you a conformer cause it sounds like your trying to play by the current set of rules which only hurts you. Are you going to change when the new rules come out? When is enough enough? How far does it have to go?? Will you ever actively protest?
 
Thats what I am talking about Uller! I have seen several threads lately about the record number of peeps on SW and have asked myself on several occasions "have the greenies infiltrated SW?" It sureashell would explain a lot of the conformist mentality not just on this thread but on every controversial thread that comes up these days.

Tell me people how has the “Don’t rock the boat” mentality worked out for you so far? What’s that, we just lost another riding area here or can only ride on certain dates there! But hey follow the rules, do as they say and it might take two years instead of one before all of our riding areas are gone. Great lets stick with that plan. Losing ground is losing ground and it doesn’t seems as if the “lets play by the rules and do what the greenies tell us to do” mentality is stopping that in any way shape or form.

Awww screw it…. Trying to change opinions on here is as about as productive as pissing into the wind. You might feel some immediate relief but you just end up wet, stinky and cold…
 
"support all snowmobiling"

I will NOT support BREAKING THE LAW!

"Will you ever actively protest?"

You have no idea how or what I do to protest things that I don't agree with. I do more than most, BUT I do it within the means of the law and where is is the most beneficial to ALL who participate. Currently (and for the last year or so) have been devoting most of my efforts to the wolf situation, but I don't go out and shoot them illegally! And I just don't have the ability to fight for everything, so "MY" personal focus right now is for the hunter. Sorry if that doesn't help you.

Call me a conformist if you want, but you haven't a clue.

Tuff talk on this computer isn't going to do anything, and riding in the closed area isn't going to do anything (but create more closure's). So if you really want to fight for your right............why don't you "conform" to using viable means that have been proven on many other thing, time and again, to work. And if your one that thinks that "lobbying hasen't slowed the deterioration of your freedoms, then you REALLY don't have a clue!
 
"Thats what I am talking about Uller! I have seen several threads lately about the record number of peeps on SW and have asked myself on several occasions "have the greenies infiltrated SW?" It sureashell would explain a lot of the conformist mentality not just on this thread but on every controversial thread that comes up these days."

This coming from someone with 116 post that joined a year ago!
 
"Thats what I am talking about Uller! I have seen several threads lately about the record number of peeps on SW and have asked myself on several occasions "have the greenies infiltrated SW?" It sureashell would explain a lot of the conformist mentality not just on this thread but on every controversial thread that comes up these days."

This coming from someone with 116 post that joined a year ago!

What does join date and post count have to do with this topic? Have you forgotten that this forum changed and only the join date and post count were transferred if requested??
 
"Thats what I am talking about Uller! I have seen several threads lately about the record number of peeps on SW and have asked myself on several occasions "have the greenies infiltrated SW?" It sureashell would explain a lot of the conformist mentality not just on this thread but on every controversial thread that comes up these days."

This coming from someone with 116 post that joined a year ago!


LOL, I wasn’t as concerned about my post count as you when they converted the forum.... and unlike some, spend more time reading than flapping... :rolleyes:
 
"What does join date and post count have to do with this topic? Have you forgotten that this forum changed and only the join date and post count were transferred if requested??"


Not at all, but it seems as if you want everyone and everything accountable.


"have the greenies infiltrated SW?"


That was the point, how do we know you weren't a greenie infiltrate?


"118 post now can I speak?"

Would it matter what I said? Nothing else is going too!
 
"support all snowmobiling"

I will NOT support BREAKING THE LAW!

"Will you ever actively protest?"

You have no idea how or what I do to protest things that I don't agree with. I do more than most, BUT I do it within the means of the law and where is is the most beneficial to ALL who participate. Currently (and for the last year or so) have been devoting most of my efforts to the wolf situation, but I don't go out and shoot them illegally! And I just don't have the ability to fight for everything, so "MY" personal focus right now is for the hunter. Sorry if that doesn't help you.

Call me a conformist if you want, but you haven't a clue.

Tuff talk on this computer isn't going to do anything, and riding in the closed area isn't going to do anything (but create more closure's). So if you really want to fight for your right............why don't you "conform" to using viable means that have been proven on many other thing, time and again, to work. And if your one that thinks that "lobbying hasen't slowed the deterioration of your freedoms, then you REALLY don't have a clue!

Thank you, I don't have much else to add. Heck, even I have marched at the state capitols in WY and in MT; helped deliver a signed petition to our local rep. at the WY state capitol against her actions. Conformist I don't really think I am, law abiding yes.


:beer; Thank you for your work on the wolf issue.
 
Sorry I haven't responded sooner... I was watching BD5 and TS7 in support of the avalanche center.

“I will NOT support BREAKING THE LAW!” Sorry But attempting to YELL Yell at me is a bit less affective than my pissing in the wind theory.

Good for you and all the others out there who refuse to break the law and are willing to follow the masses. Blindly following the government, while saying “I resist!” has proven to be a tried and true practice. There are countless causes out there that threw peaceful, organized and sanctioned demonstrations that have actually effected change.... Could you please name one????

Now lets take a look at the changes that have taken place through civil disobedience and the actual change that it has had.

It could be argued this country was founded by a bunch of civil disobedient folks. Had they not been feed up with British law then we would all be bowing down to the Queen. Had Rosa Parks not been the reckless civil disobedient she was would colored folks still be sitting at the back of the bus? Gandhi was one wild and crazy guy huh! And the list goes on and on and on .......

Obviously this behavior is not for everyone, but for some one to say their attempts to affect change are less effective or correct than theirs is a pretty sad deal. So, instead of bashing people on here who are taking a different path in an attempt to reach the same goals that you are trying to achieve, why not focus your time and energy to the common goal. You have stated you are too busy at this time with another worth while cause, yet you took better than an hour or so today trying to convince others on here they were wrong. How many of those effective letters could you have written in that time?

alas, the beer buzz is wearing off, I have finished watching one of the DVD's I won tonight and the lids are getting heavy. Can't wait to read the responses in the morning!
 
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