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I saw these posts in another section, I think it's wrong.....

Did you guys read the page from the "anti's " website that was in sixpointbulls post "Send a message to our friends" in this section. They talk about reporting tracks and motorized use in closed areas. I don't know who you think your getting "even" with by riding out of bounds. I'll bet it makes them happy when they report the incident. Knowing that we are helping to hammer the nails in our own coffin.

The truth is that they will lie about where and when the tracks are anyway....
I guarantee if they go out and don't see any, they will take pic's of tracks in
legal areas and just say they were in wilderness etc....these elitist liberals
do not care about ethics, truth, etc...they will use any method to achieve their goals....it's about time we did the same! I think we are headed for a
showdown with them over guns, it is going to get ugly....who knows where
it will leed? Or is it lead?
 
The truth is that they will lie about where and when the tracks are anyway....
I guarantee if they go out and don't see any, they will take pic's of tracks in
legal areas and just say they were in wilderness etc....these elitist liberals
do not care about ethics, truth, etc...they will use any method to achieve their goals....it's about time we did the same! I think we are headed for a
showdown with them over guns, it is going to get ugly....who knows where
it will leed? Or is it lead?

I agree about the underhanded tactics, I also believe they will intentionally "set up" confrontations and have someone video tape them, make it look like they are totally innocent. Hopefully without photos of local landmarks in the background etc, their bogus photos will be able to be proven wrong. In confrontational situations I always conduct myself as If I am being video taped, because you probably are. I do know that in Montana some of the road closures coinside with hunting season. Around here its Dec 1. If you guys want to get some more people angry with snowmobilers, go track up the roads for the hunters. I personally don't ride until hunting season is over.
 
I agree about the underhanded tactics, I also believe they will intentionally "set up" confrontations and have someone video tape them, make it look like they are totally innocent. Hopefully without photos of local landmarks in the background etc, their bogus photos will be able to be proven wrong. In confrontational situations I always conduct myself as If I am being video taped, because you probably are. I do know that in Montana some of the road closures coinside with hunting season. Around here its Dec 1. If you guys want to get some more people angry with snowmobilers, go track up the roads for the hunters. I personally don't ride until hunting season is over.


Talking about intentionally setting up confrontations, Green Peace purchased a ship a few years back to follow and track whalers from other countries. They would video tape them, try to board their ships and even went to the extent of ramming their ship with their own. All in the name of conservation. They felt that it was all justifiable. Well this season the Japanese Govt. decided to help protect their own and has sent a gun ship to follow their whaling ships to deter the "greenies". You know what, it worked. Green Peace is not allowing their ship out this season. They are actually gettin sh*t from another "greenie" group for pussin out. That other group has even asked what they are doing with their donations if they aren't going out. "Greenies" fighting "greenies"??

Now I'm not an active hunter so maybe I just have't heard of "greenies" following hunters out in the woods to videotape and protest but, I haven't seen it. Could it be that they are a little afraid of confronting individuals with guns.

Maybe we do need to start packin while we ride. Maybe it would deter the spitting and ski pole throwin. Maybe the video taping too. Maybe subies need to explode into a ball of flames to make them understand that we will take this to the next level if they continue to pursue their agendas.

Here in seattle a few months ago there was a group of "Green" houses built. They were large and probably worth a couple mil each. Well a "green" group decided to torch all of them in protest. I ask you, how enviromentally friendly is a burning house especially one that is built with the most enviromentally friendly building practices and materials available?

Now XXL, I previously wrote about riding in the middle of Nov. It was hunting season. We knew this. The open area for them was on the other side of the ridge which they accessed from the East. We came in from the West. We respected their space, their season, their right to hunt.

All I ask is that the "greenies" respect what little space we have left. They can't and won't do that though cause it will never be enough in their eyes. They won't stop until we are completely shut out. Or until we start to influence their line of thinking? Convince them that we do have the right to ride in the mountains? Convince them that they need to stop their fight, OR ELSE?
 
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Here here.
I truely believe by just keep doing what we're doing (writing letters and being friendly) we'll just keeping going we're going....out of existance.
I'm not really sure how we can go about this without ending up in trouble but I think we gotta try something else cause not only are they not backing down, they're picking up steam.
We go about fighting their way playing their game and they'll always win, they have more money more influence and just more of everything....we need to play a different game.
 
educate the public...

I have been following this thred since it started. Many people have talked about writting letters to congress, senators and local elected officials. Joining SAWS, state snowmobile associations and local clubs. And of course poaching wilderness areas.

I think one improtat aspect that we have to look at is educating the public. People who are not part of our sport don't know how clean our newer sleds run. They don't know that with a resonable snow pack we do no damage to the land, grasses and trees below. They have no idea the amount of $$$ we bring to various states and regions, and that it gets put directly into their local economies. They don't recognize our appreciation for the outdoors and what it has to offer. How it brings many families and freinds together at different times of the year.

Once people understand our sport and what we bring to the table the more difficult it will for greenies to persuade public opinion against us. Right now however we are easy pickins...because negative points can be made against us in generalalities that people pick up quickly. Ex.. sleds are loud they bother the wild life and public..get rid of them, they pollute the water and air...git rid of them, they are inefficient at burning fuel...get rid of them...
you catch my drift.

Educate with simple facts and figures in the paper, on a bill board... wherever. I know this would cost $$ but its ok to start small. The point is come voting time if people don't know... they don't care.

Peace out, and Good luck, Reese
 
disobedience, civil vs uncivil

Here on Snowest over the years I've enjoyed some glorious humor, swam thru oceans of c?ap, and even endured da brotha! et al, but I've never seen a collection of thoughts so poisonous to our sport as in this discussion.

The ONLY difference between civil disobedience and criminal behavior is that you do not personally benefit from acts of civil disobedience (it's not fun & game). Ghandi walked to the sea for his salt in OPEN defiance of authorities, intending to martyr himself, forcing the (imperial British) authorities to imprison him. That's why he was Consequential instead of a common criminal.

Had Ghandi 'purloined' his salt (there was a govt salt tax which could not reasonably be enforced), he would have been lame and devoid of moral authority. Rifraff. Hint hint.

Now if you want to martyr yourself, I understand that more dearly than you know and I will respect you. But ONLY after you make quite sure (maybe ask your mom) that there is really no valid reason for unarmed authorities (bureaucrats in a polity such as ours) to prevent snowmobile travel at that certain time and place.

Get a map, rigorously validate your navigation skills, then call the forest service. Ask for law enforcement officer on duty and tell them where and when you intend to operate your snowmobile in defiance of a posted forest order.

Otherwise, make a sporting effort (strive and self-sacrifice if necessary) to keep you and your group within the law when sledding. Thank you.
 
I too have, over the years I've enjoyed some glorious humour, swam threw oceans of c?ap, but I've never seen a collection of thoughts so poisonous to our sport as in this discussion.

Again, would some one, anyone please tell me what if any areas have been slated to be shut down, that threw these peaceful law abiding tactics we have stopped?

I am NOT saying just break the boundaries when it suites your needs. I am saying perhaps it is time to do exactly what Swami suggests. Perhaps ORGANIZE a group ride on onto a closed area, make sure the media is involved, make certain as many people as possible are aware of the when, where and most importantly the WHY. Another suggestion, seeing's how it is the sledders who fund grooming. Lets stop the grooming on the most used cross country ski areas. Who needs grooming anyway? Lets divert those funds to other areas that would solely benefit sledders.

My entire point is, what the mass's in the sledding community are doing today is, in all honesty doing little to no good in stopping land closures. If what we have been doing for years is not working then why shouldn't we talk about and explore other options? Why is it that soo many are afraid or unwilling to at least talk about it? I am not saying I have the answers I am just trying to get folks thinking about it so that together perhaps we can come up with some tactics that actually work.

I can see how some of you are going to interpret this post as I am bashing groups such as SAWS. I assure you that I AM NOT. The men and women who head these groups work theirassoff and are doing the very best they can with what they have.
 
Go to the forum page and look at the number of threads in all categories! You should be able to see where our priorities are!

General snowmobiling 4780
Sled forums 15975
Riding areas 4187
Mountain deep powder 1478
Performance modified 2971

Land use 78


Just something to ponder!
 
Go to the forum page and look at the number of threads in all categories! You should be able to see where our priorities are!

General snowmobiling 4780
Sled forums 15975
Riding areas 4187
Mountain deep powder 1478
Performance modified 2971

Land use 78


Just something to ponder!

looks like most on here dont give crap.
10% care
10% greenie spies
10% dont have sleds
70% are just here typing BS.jmo.
 
Thank you, I don't have much else to add. Heck, even I have marched at the state capitols in WY and in MT; helped deliver a signed petition to our local rep. at the WY state capitol against her actions. Conformist I don't really think I am, law abiding yes.


:beer; Thank you for your work on the wolf issue.


WYsteph,

You are welcome!

The way I see this thread is that there are a few on here that lack "ethics" and no amount of effort to try and teach them is going to help. They will continue to give put public perception of the snowmobiling world in the toilet, no matter what the concequences. In the hunting world we call these "SLOB HUNTERS" as they are the reason access to public and private land is quickly dwindling.

It's that simple!!!

You on the other hand show that you are ethical and are strong enough to stand up for your beliefs in a way that responsible adult americans should........so for that I will say "Thank You".

MX
 
WYsteph,

You are welcome!

The way I see this thread is that there are a few on here that lack "ethics" and no amount of effort to try and teach them is going to help. They will continue to give put public perception of the snowmobiling world in the toilet, no matter what the concequences. In the hunting world we call these "SLOB HUNTERS" as they are the reason access to public and private land is quickly dwindling.

It's that simple!!!

You on the other hand show that you are ethical and are strong enough to stand up for your beliefs in a way that responsible adult americans should........so for that I will say "Thank You".

MX

Well Said.
 
WYsteph,

You are welcome!

The way I see this thread is that there are a few on here that lack "ethics" and no amount of effort to try and teach them is going to help. They will continue to give put public perception of the snowmobiling world in the toilet, no matter what the concequences. In the hunting world we call these "SLOB HUNTERS" as they are the reason access to public and private land is quickly dwindling.

It's that simple!!!

You on the other hand show that you are ethical and are strong enough to stand up for your beliefs in a way that responsible adult americans should........so for that I will say "Thank You".

MX

MTN you MUST be talking about some one else with your no "ethics" and "SLOB HUNTERS" comments. As you have no idea who I am or what I do. I assure you my ethics will stand toe to toe with yours any day. I would also put my hunting skills and knowledge up to yours any time. I would be willing to bet that I have hunted in more states and on more continents than you and I did it all while serving my country so I think my ethics are just fine, thank you very much. I took the time, attended the schools and passed the course to get my German hunting license HAVE YOU?

Why is it that when some folks are unable to respond to a post they don't agree with intelligently they start calling people names and trying to pick on their character?

I asked in my previous post to give me one example of where a closer has been stopped or an area has been re-opened. I ask for this as I honestly don't know if there out there? I know there hasn't been any here.

Just because some one doesn't agree with you on an issue doesn't mean they are a less of a person than you.

If the system, as it is today, worked then we wouldn't be having this conversation. The fact that we are still losing riding areas at an alarming rate should make people want to at least explore other tactics to see if there is something different we could do to stop the bleeding before we are all bled out.
 
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"MTN you MUST be talking about some one else with your no "ethics" and "SLOB HUNTERS" comments. As you have no idea who I am or what I do. I assure you my ethics will stand toe to toe with yours any day."


The fact that you choose to break the law in an attempt to change that law supports my statement. I don't have to meet the person to understand that there is a lack of ethics, it is extremely apparent in what a person says, does and says he does.

There were no names mentioned in my previous post and I can only assume you feel guilty to take it as a personal attack. To this , all I can say is - if the shoe fit!

As far as an area being re-opened because of legal lobbying- the most recent one that comes to mind for me is in our area there was a triangle section in a specific unit of a late season winter range archery hunt that was closed as a safe zone for deer and elk a number of years ago due to a major portion of that unit had caught fire and there was no winter forage except in this triangle area. The F&G closed this area to hunting quite a few years ago. After lobbying with the position that the undergrowth had finally replentified itself and there was now sufficient food source in the rest of the unit (along with some other key criteria) , that the closure was unjustified. It was re-opened. Had we not presented our case in a moral and ethical fashion, it would have never been given back to us.

The sad part to this example is the first year of it's reopening, slob hunters were breaking the law by flinging arrows at deer right off the highway, dragging deer down to the borrow pits and gutting them, chasing down deer with vehicles, etc, etc. It was a complete fiasco and even the organized archery clubs and state archery organization were embarrassed to the point that they all agreed it needed to be closed again as this display to the non-hunting community was doing more damage to our sport that we didn't need. All because of some slob hunters that broke the law.

As has been stated on this thread by others more eloquent than I, if you choose to break the law then you are taking criminal action against the governing body that makes this America, the country you once fought for.


""The ONLY difference between civil disobedience and criminal behavior is that you do not personally benefit from acts of civil disobedience (it's not fun & game)."
 
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Here lies the problem with us sledders, as I am one of them. We argue amongst ourselves when in the end we basically want the same thing. NO MORE LAND CLOSURES! There are enough already, right. So, if no sledder ever got another ticket in a closed area and we all minded the law to the tee, would we get our riding area's back and would they stop closing more areas? I don't personally think so. Okay, so if we all started tearing signs down and riding anywhere we d@mn well pleased, would that help. Maybe, I doubt they could hire enough forest monkeys to enforce every border. Or they might outlaw sledding completely. I just wish we wouldn't bash on eachother. The f-ing greenies probably don't argue amongst themselves like this. The other thing to point out is that it isn't just the greenies fighting us. It is our own Gov't making these closures law, I think the greenies are just brainwashed into believing that it is a good thing. I don't personally care if a fellow snowester goes into a closed area on purpose. I also don't care if you want to abide by every rule our gov't sets for us, like a robot. Main idea is this we all want our riding area's back. They are closing land around nw montana faster than you can imagine. It's not because we as sledders caused the closures, its because our gov't has a hidden agenda here. I believe that in 10 years if any of us still want to ride our sleds anywhere but private property, then we will be breaking the law. My daughter is only a couple months old and I'd like to take her riding in some of our beautiful country before we are all completely closed out of it.
All done. Let the bashing commence.
 
"
The fact that you choose to break the law in an attempt to change that law supports my statement. I don't have to meet the person to understand that there is a lack of ethics, it is extremely apparent in what a person says, does and says he does.

As far as an area being re-opened because of legal lobbying- the most recent one that comes to mind for me is in our area there was a triangle section in a specific unit of a late season winter range archery hunt that was closed as a safe zone for deer and elk a number of years ago due to a major portion of that unit had caught fire and there was no winter forage except in this triangle area. The F&G closed this area to hunting quite a few years ago. After lobbying with the position that the undergrowth had finally replentified itself and there was now sufficient food source in the rest of the unit (along with some other key criteria) , that the closure was unjustified. It was re-opened. Had we not presented our case in a moral and ethical fashion, it would have never been given back to us.

."


You must be kidding? I have gone back threw and re-read all of my previous post and not once did I say I was breaking any laws. I have, all this time continued to say being a sheep and blindly following the mass's has not prevent one land closure or re-opened a single area TOO RIDING that I am aware of and perhaps it is time to think of different tactics.

The reason I assumed your name calling and hollyer than thow comments were more or less directed at me is because I am one of the few who have challenged your WE MUST FOLLOW mentality! Tell me I'm wrong?

Great example above BUT I didn't ask for an example of an area which was are-opened to hunting! I asked for an area that was re-opened to sledding. The reason that lobbying petitioning works when it comes to hunting is because there is substantially more money involved when it comes to hunting rights. If SAWS was as well funded and carried the same political clout as the NRA and the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation then we would stand a chance of stopping land closures to riding.
 
If SAWS was as well funded and carried the same political clout as the NRA and the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation then we would stand a chance of stopping land closures to riding.


SAWS has allready helped stop closures in my riding area.:)
 
NewMTNsldr,

Whether you have driven in land closures on purpose "or support" doing so as a means of protest to change a law, you are lacking in ethical boundries. My stand in this thread has been directed against those that choose to freely break the law in an attempt to "stick it to the man". Again, you obviously feel as you belong in this category as you keep taking my posts as personal attacks.

As far as that example, you asked for re-opened land closures (no snowmobile specification). That example had no help from the NRA ,RMEF, FNAWS,WTF, or any other national organization. It was speerheaded by an organized group of local archers that came together for just that cause.


snowmobiler,

I am quite certain that there have been many many compromises on the amount of land closures that state governments have wanted to close due to the efforts of SAWS. Had this organization not been involved in these negotiations we might not even be having this discussion as all sleds would be restricted to groomed trails only:(


sledfvr,

"I just wish we wouldn't bash on each other."

I agree that these kind of threads hurt in certain respects that they give fuel to greenies when those that post breaking the law is acceptable. It also implies that it might be ok for others to do the same.

But the good side of it is that maybe someone who has heard it was ok cuz they wouldn't get caught, might read some of this and realize there is more at stake here.
If it deturs even one person from riding in an illegal area, then it is worth the effort!

MX
 
OK, I am done. Clearly I have been mistaken and your constant quoting my remarks in your response's were not directed at me? I and anyone else who suggest that we as a snowmobiling community look at other tactics in an attempt to affect a change that clearly isn't happening now are lacking ethics and should not voice our opinions on this or any other forum especially if we only have 116 post. We should just leave all of the hoopla and wisdom talk to the old timers with 2,932 post cause they are clearly the only ones with a correct thought on here.


I do want to thank you for reminding me why I typically lurk on here and not respond to post. It doesn't matter what you have to say some one will always be there to tell you just how little you know and how worthless your response is.

:mad: ;) :beer;
 
" I and anyone else who suggest that we as a snowmobiling community look at other tactics in an attempt to affect a change that clearly isn't happening now are lacking ethics and should not voice our opinions "


Not at all ! I would "encourage" everyone to voice your opinions by suggesting strategies that could change snowmobile issues for the betterment of the snowmobile community .........""just do it legally so it cannot be used against us"".

Have a great season and stay legal:beer;:face-icon-small-hap
 
, i still work for the goal of keeping things open as far as joining a groups, and writing letters to try and help the cause, but i do admit, i do as much damage as good when it comes to playing outside the rules. !!
:mad:



so the damage done
is worth the 'good' you do when out of bounds..
Before or After allowed riding dates.

Hmmmm

selfish ? or just self satisfaction ?
 
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