I saw these posts in another section, I think it's wrong.....

[Uller]

Mr. Extreme,

In my opinion you are way off base and need to go back and actually read (and comprehend) what myself and others have stated on this thread. You have completely misunderstood and/or reinterpreted it as something else.

Whether you have driven in land closures on purpose "or support" doing so as a means of protest to change a law, you are lacking in ethical boundries. My stand in this thread has been directed against those that choose to freely break the law in an attempt to "stick it to the man".

Most of us have stated that we HAVE NOT ridden out of bounds or done it intentionally. I myself rode prior to the season start (opinion of Forest Ranger) however, didn’t get a ticket cause I legally didn’t do anything wrong. We have been discussing doing it as a form of civil disobedience. See that means performing an act in the future. Hasn’t already been done……..

With that said, there are two different conversations going on in this thread. In the first part, you and a couple others have bashed on an 18 yr old for where he is riding. OK. Another group of us happen to be discussing what Civil Disobedience could possibly do for our cause of keeping open riding areas which the Environmentalists and Eco-terrorists are trying to shut down. We get it that you don’t condone riding in closed areas or before the legal season starts. Thanks for your input.

 

[Uller]

I would like to recap and comment on some responses to date.

Here is your first post in this thread

If we don't show effort to police ourselves then we give the powers to be every go-ahead to do whatever means they feel necessary to control their position WITHOUT us having any right to rebute the situation.

"Powers to be"??? You are calling the "greenies" powers to be? I am sorry. Truely. I have read of a theory called the "Pussification of America" I think it basically describes your mentality based on your responses. I thought you should "fight" for what you believe in. Isn't that what our forefathers did? Isn't that how they brought about change?
I’m guessing that you were brought up by your mother and regularly were told to just behave and not buck the system. To turn your back and run when confronting a challenge. To bend over and……….

I will NOT support BREAKING THE LAW! BUT I do it within the means of the law and where it is the most beneficial to ALL who participate.

How do you know it provides the most benefit to ALL? Come on really?? Do you happen to have a magical crystal ball which tells you the future? Could it be that you THINK that your particular method is best for all?

You know it is my belief that that line of thinking is what is shutting down our riding areas. Why you ask. Well aren’t all the wilderness areas created with the benefit of ALL of us in mind? Aren’t they created for us cause we really need to preserve the nature. To stop global warming. To save the bears, wolfs’, fish, owls, ……. (does the list ever end) (side note: there is an enviro group that is stating that hill climbing is eroding the hills we ride on and ruining the cliffs for the mountain goat. HA) Your mentality is the problem with America. Everyone thinks that their opinion is what is best for others. Others can’t think for themselves. We need to create an azz load of laws to help protect them, their needs, their interests. So on and so forth.

 

[Uller]

I feel that this comment is rather pertinent to the second discussion I mentioned previously. You must not have read it (or thought it meant something else)

Steph, You are completely missing the point and it appears that this is a much broader topic than just riding. Why is it that the mass's seem to think it is OK for the government to tell us when we can or can't do things. What ever happened to free thinking adults who could actually make an intelligent decisions on their own and take responsibility for their own actions? What happens on the years when you get ridable snow on the 1st of November? Do you just sit and look at the snow for 15 days because the government said it is better to wait until the 15th? I am sorry but if you think that is OK then I would have to agree with who ever it was that made the sheep herding comment.

Just a thought, do you know what a debate is or a two sided conversation. In reading this thread I don’t think you do. Any time someone brings up a new idea or tries to make a point you just go back talking about something else or call them names or talk about their ethics or go off on some other tangent……......

 

[team2]

azzhat? ohh you mean a hazmat certification?

lmao

 

[mtn_extreme]

Uller,

Spin it how you like. Bottom line is that there was "noboby" on this thread that doesn't support new ideas to combat against closures. We all support any efforts made to fight against the greenie's. When the ideas can only be accomplished by "breaking the law" then it crosses the boundries of being ethical. I'm sure you would have the support of everyone reading this thread (including me) as long as you keep it legal.

" I myself rode prior to the season start (opinion of Forest Ranger) however, didn’t get a ticket cause I legally didn’t do anything wrong."

I have to ask here - what is the point of a start date and ending date if this is legal?


Bottom line! Is it legal?....keep it legal and I'll support it. Not so hard to understand, is it?

 

[sledfvr]

Uller, I agree with you 100 percent. They will not take my guns and they will not take all of my riding areas. And as a sledder if you're not for riding then you are against it.

 

[Uller]

I have a ton more to post here but the site won't let me.........

I'll keep trying though.

 

[Uller]

Let me pose this one final scenario: you have been snowmobiling in a certain area for years. Over the summer a NEW law is passed which made that particular area now illegal to ride in for reasons beyond you but one more than likely a lie which was created by a “greenie” group to stop you from what you have been doing for years.

I think the difference between us Mr. Extreme is that you would stop riding because it is now illegal. Maybe write letters crying about how it isn’t fair. Spend your rest of years frustrated and remembering how it used to be. You sir have bent over. You haven’t been ethical/moral to yourself. You are the type of person who has allowed this once good country of ours to fall to pieces.

See, I would continue to ride. I would enjoy myself. I would head into the hills with my middle finger displayed proudly above my head. I would stand proud doing what I do cause I would be true to myself. I wouldn’t compromise my ethics or my morals. I wouldn’t be a conformer. Hopefully, others would share the same belief that I do. They would keep riding. We would have a large group that they couldn’t take down. They would have to change their laws. They would have to let us ride.........

(There was once a (one, singular, not two or more) “Tree Hugger” who spent a year in a tree (on someone else’s property, read: trespassing, illegal). Others heard of her plight and chained themselves to trees in the same forest. The logging company who owned those trees didn’t cut them down that year and still haven’t to date.)

 

[Uller]

Not at all ! I would "encourage" everyone to voice your opinions by suggesting strategies that could change snowmobile issues for the betterment of the snowmobile community .........""just do it legally so it cannot be used against us"".

See here you go contradicting yourself. We have been voicing our opinions the entire time. Throwing strategies out there. You have taken them as something we have already done. Calling us unethical because some of the ideas aren’t currently legal. Questioning our morals.

 

[Uller]

Well I got a little more out but still can't post the rest. Oh well.

I've said what I had to say (mostly).

I do pray that it never gets there though.

 

[mtn_extreme]

Let me pose this one final scenario: you have been snowmobiling in a certain area for years. Over the summer a NEW law is passed which made that particular area now illegal to ride in for reasons beyond you but one more than likely a lie which was created by a “greenie” group to stop you from what you have been doing for years.

I think the difference between us Mr. Extreme is that you would stop riding because it is now illegal. Maybe write letters crying about how it isn’t fair. Spend your rest of years frustrated and remembering how it used to be. You sir have bent over. You haven’t been ethical/moral to yourself. You are the type of person who has allowed this once good country of ours to fall to pieces.

See, I would continue to ride. I would enjoy myself. I would head into the hills with my middle finger displayed proudly above my head. I would stand proud doing what I do cause I would be true to myself. I wouldn’t compromise my ethics or my morals. I wouldn’t be a conformer. Hopefully, others would share the same belief that I do. They would keep riding. We would have a large group that they couldn’t take down. They would have to change their laws. They would have to let us ride.........

(There was once a (one, singular, not two or more) “Tree Hugger” who spent a year in a tree (on someone else’s property, read: trespassing, illegal). Other heard of her plight and chained themselves to trees in the same forest. The logging company who owned those trees didn’t cut them down that year and still haven’t to date.)

"See, I would continue to ride. I would enjoy myself. I would head into the hills with my middle finger displayed proudly above my head. I would stand proud doing what I do cause I would be true to myself. I wouldn’t compromise my ethics or my morals. I wouldn’t be a conformer. Hopefully, others would share the same belief that I do. They would keep riding. We would have a large group that they couldn’t take down. They would have to change their laws. They would have to let us ride........."




You have shown your true colors here and only confirmed your lack of ethics and that you have the mentality of a criminal.

Your dis-respect for the law and the snowmobiling community is sad, especially in that you cannot see what and who you are hurting.

And they wouldn't have to let you ride, they would probably restrict snowmobiles to roads or groomed trails only. Increase patrols, as you guys would more than pay for their salaries thru the ticket fines.

You know nothing about me! In your example, I would lobby for the area to be reopened or for new area to be open to take it's place by using legal means. Organize those that feel as I do, start a petition drive, etc. Maybe even chain myself to a tree.


Oh, and chaining yourself to a tree is not illegal.


I am done responding to you as I don't associate with wanna be criminals. And you better hope I never see you riding in a closed area.

 

[jim]

Protesting closed areas by riding in them is only reinforcing the ideologies of those who are fighting to close the land against us...and thus making their case much more pertinent and justified. And it gives them ammo.

What it's really doing is stripping the voices and rights of those who are fighting for our cause.

You don't protest violence by going out and committing violence do you?

And you guys are entitled to you own opinions...so are guys in jail and on murder row...they were all "justified" in their minds at one point and time. But you need to realize that what you see at righteous at the time is simply wrong.

And you don't think the penalties won't continue to escalate for guys like you who are breaking the law?? How naive...they will simply escalate them until, if you are caught riding in closed areas, they will confiscate your truck, trailer and sleds.

Only point is, breaking the law is not "creative" or "ethical" or "moral" as you've alluded...it is the weak letting their selfish desires take over their morals and ethics.

You want to help, stop riding on closed land and fight this with dignity (which means staying within the law).

Makes me wonder how much area around you is closed due to exactly you...because tracks on closed areas gets more closed, and quickly.

 

[NewMTNsldr]

And you better hope I never see you riding in a closed area.

OR what? You will attempt to do something illegal to him? LMFAO way to live up to your god all mighty persona

Again you and Jim are absolutely correct! We should all continue to march down the same path we are currently on as a sledding community because it is working so well now. All of these legal lobbing sessions you rant about are working swimmingly and it is just my imagination that we are losing our sledding area's at an alarming rate! We shouldn't talk as a group about other tactics which may be more affective in stopping future land closures.

You preach about ethics and morals and how yours are better than those who TALK about other avenues. When in all actuality it appears you are perfectly content to SIT on yours and do nothing but the same ole same ole and watch more and more areas get closed.

So tell me gentlemen, what are you doing, willing to do, think we should do, to stop losing our riding areas? Besides the same ole same ole proven tactic that isn't working. Take some time out of your "I'm morally superior to you" bashing and come up with some ideas.

 

[jim]

Take some time out of your "I'm morally superior to you" bashing and come up with some ideas.

Everything I stated was in general terms, not at you...but I'm glad you are at least intelligent enough to recognize me as morally superior.

I won't comment about intelligence, you've taken care of that for me, but please do enlighten me as to how your strategy is going to keep land open for our sport. Please point out one time this has worked in the past.

But, it really is pointless trying to reason with you (yes, this statement is pointed at you)...your mental capacity is something none of us can fix. If you see it one way, and you are not bright enough to recognize the basics, then there is nothing we can do to stop you.

 

[NewMTNsldr]

Everything I stated was in general terms, not at you...but I'm glad you are at least intelligent enough to recognize me as morally superior.

I won't comment about intelligence, you've taken care of that for me, .

Why is it when some people have nothing intelligent to say they start questioning others intelligence? I know that your IQ must register some where between 70 - 79 - Borderline deficiency in intelligence and 120 - 140 - Very superior intelligence but I have no idea where therefore I can not intelligently say if you are more intelligent than I am or not. I would say those who are narrow minded and unwilling to explore/talk about other avenues to prevent land closures are limiting their intelligence.

but please do enlighten me as to how your strategy is going to keep land open for our sport. Please point out one time this has worked in the past. .

I offered up several suggestions a couple of day ago, I also have asked multiple times for you to give me one example of where/when the current practices have stopped a single land closure or opened a single area that has been closed. To date, my three day old suggestion has been just as effective as the current practice which has been in affect for years now!

But, it really is pointless trying to reason with you (yes, this statement is pointed at you)...your mental capacity is something none of us can fix. If you see it one way, and you are not bright enough to recognize the basics, then there is nothing we can do to stop you.

WOW, I couldn’t have said this better myself, take a good long look in the mirror and repeat it back to yourself.

 

[Swami]

sticks vs carrots

Extreme,
Are you saying that there is NO place for genuine civil disobedience?
I again remind everyone that I am talking about willful acts of self-sacrifice as opposed to opportunistic poaching.
There is some evidence that sustained disobedience can overturn SOP, one example being the gain of 11,000 acres in the Sonora Pass area above 9600' in Cali. But I don't think this win came about just by ignoring public law with middle finger extended.

The only idea I've come up with to unite us on this issue is a paradigm that relies on carrots instead of sticks. Rewards for compliance - an opportunity to gain riding acreage hinged on increased overall law-abiding behavior. I think that's an approach that would help us positively take control of our future. Some have called it pie in the sky, but it's not as far fetched as you might think... last year we got darn close to gaining a 'rewards plan' near where I live.

And I've got one more question for the middle-finger school of theorists.
If it's morally okay to break public law at your own discretion (because being law-abiding is never rewarded or whatever), is it also okay to break rules at your own discretion on private property? If there is a difference, please explain. Gotta love those essay questions, LOL.

 

[Uller]

You want to help, stop riding on closed land and fight this with dignity (which means staying within the law).

Makes me wonder how much area around you is closed due to exactly you...because tracks on closed areas gets more closed, and quickly.

Jim,

Please go back and reread my posts. To date, I have not broken any laws and have not ridden in any closed areas. Any closures in my "area" can not be attributed to me.

I would bet that anyone who does currently ride in closed areas isnt' on here discussing it and really don't care if it is closed or not. I do care if they are closed, what reasons they are closed for and if those reasons are ethical or not. Hence the discussion.

 

[Uller]

You have shown your true colors here and only confirmed your lack of ethics and that you have the mentality of a criminal.

Maybe even chain myself to a tree.

Oh, and chaining yourself to a tree is not illegal.

And you better hope I never see you riding in a closed area.

I am very comfortable with my "true colors" thank you. I have morals, dignity, and a sense of self-respect which laws imposed upon me by selfish enviromentalists and goverment officials looking to make a name for themselves can not ruin.

FYI - If you do choose to chain yourself to a tree on someone elses private property you would be commiting an illegal act. It is called trespassing.

Tell you what, when (not if) they do close the areas which I ride in I'll send you a PM and let you know when and where so that you can join me.

 

[jim]

I know that your IQ must register some where between 70 - 79 - Borderline deficiency in intelligence and 120 - 140- Very superior intelligence

IQ tests are based on one's ability to quickly identify patterns and trends. Riding on closed land gets it closed more quickly...fighting the policy and the closure can and does keep riding areas open.

So how is it my IQ is low but I'm able to recognize this simple relationship? I didn't need to question your intelligence...this one only took 60 points to figure out (which is probably "deficient").

Done...you boys have fun...ride fast, it's gonna get taken away even faster.

 

[jim]

Please go back and reread my posts. To date, I have not broken any laws and have not ridden in any closed areas. Any closures in my "area" can not be attributed to me.

I would bet that anyone who does currently ride in closed areas isnt' on here discussing it and really don't care if it is closed or not. I do care if they are closed, what reasons they are closed for and if those reasons are ethical or not. Hence the discussion.

Not directed at you, but the one's who are blatantly ignoring closed areas...I welcome any discussion regarding keeping land open. And, yes, as more land gets closed we will see more and more illegal riding...I don't disagree that this will happen, I simply disagree with it.