I hope this wasn't one of you guys.

[Dogmeat]

From the UAC site

Observation: Cardiff Fork 1/7/2011

Observer Name:
Nalli Nails???
Region:
Cardiff Fork
Big Cottonwood Canyon
Salt Lake
Observation Date:
01/07/2011
Location or Route: Cardiff and Mineral
snow_profile_location:
Comments - Photos - Videos (group 1)
Today's good skiing is tomorrow's buried weak layer. Advanced NSF and surface hoar dominate the snowcover. Most exposed terrain has some form of wind crust to contend with but even these slopes still have faceted snow at the surface. Sunny slopes are the only exception to the facets.

LOL....

 

[Dabull]

Wow. I'm confused. Sorry.

Dabull, if this is your land. Can we ride there someday?

you have to be pretty special to get an invite up there, unless your a skier then you just do what you want

 

[Dabull]

Very Interesting..........I too just assumed the photo was real. But if you look close, the skier is headed straight up. A skier with skins on would never be headed straight up.
They would most likely not be going right up the "shot" either.
A skin track would zig zag up the slope and off to the side in a safe spot. And I can't see a skin track where the sker is at all.
If you start thinking about the odd things in this pic, it just doesn't make sense at all.
Plus, what are the chances that a sledder would really high mark the skier?
Pretty slim, granted there are some numbnuts out there. But if Shawn says this is private land, that seriusly narrows the possiblities of dumbness way down.
Maybe this should be addressed over at the UAC?

nice catch matt,wish the forest circus,i,mean service was this bright.

 

[Dabull]

Uneducated DB........

anytime you would like to sit down with us land owners and be educated just let me know .i would love to set it up

 

[punchON]

Hey Dabull-
I'm one of the skiers that was in Cardiff Fork Friday (and this is my first post) and I'm just wondering how this whole situation is gonna play out. I could care less about the whole motors vs. non-motors situation: I drive a car and burn more gas than plenty of snowmobilers and especially don't have a problem with someone wanting to recreate on their property anyway they want. Regardless, the photo was not photo shopped, so I think you should stop arguing that point. The internet is great and you can say whatever you want, but that skier was DEFINITELY there below the snowmobiler. Whoever was riding the snowmobile above the skier was not only potentially endangering that person, but illegally riding on Forest Service land. Every one of the skiers up there that day hiked over from Alta, and there are no private property signs anywhere coming from that direction. Yes, it is the responsibility of recreationists (skiers and snowmobilers alike) to be aware of land boundaries, but how many snowmobilers on this forum have unknowingly ridden on private land? If there are no fences or signs and there's been a 40 year tradition of snowmobiling somewhere and no one's ever had a problem, would you not go riding in one of your favorite places? That's the case for skiers in Cardiff Fork. I'd hate to not be able to ski Cardiac Ridge and upper Cardiff Fork, but I sure as hell am not going to pay $375 to be able to ski there! I think that you're better off trying to find money elsewhere because trying to charge backcountry skiers for skiing is like trying to convince a jackmormon to pay his 10%! If you want skiers to stay off your land, they need to know where it is in the first place. By the way, I think we're starting to figure that out & your permitees, the Wasatch Powderbirds, can't be too happy about having to run over your tracks until it snows another three feet.

 

[Dabull]

Hey Dabull-
I'm one of the skiers that was in Cardiff Fork Friday (and this is my first post) and I'm just wondering how this whole situation is gonna play out. I could care less about the whole motors vs. non-motors situation: I drive a car and burn more gas than plenty of snowmobilers and especially don't have a problem with someone wanting to recreate on their property anyway they want. Regardless, the photo was not photo shopped, so I think you should stop arguing that point. The internet is great and you can say whatever you want, but that skier was DEFINITELY there below the snowmobiler. Whoever was riding the snowmobile above the skier was not only potentially endangering that person, but illegally riding on Forest Service land. Every one of the skiers up there that day hiked over from Alta, and there are no private property signs anywhere coming from that direction. Yes, it is the responsibility of recreationists (skiers and snowmobilers alike) to be aware of land boundaries, but how many snowmobilers on this forum have unknowingly ridden on private land? If there are no fences or signs and there's been a 40 year tradition of snowmobiling somewhere and no one's ever had a problem, would you not go riding in one of your favorite places? That's the case for skiers in Cardiff Fork. I'd hate to not be able to ski Cardiac Ridge and upper Cardiff Fork, but I sure as hell am not going to pay $375 to be able to ski there! I think that you're better off trying to find money elsewhere because trying to charge backcountry skiers for skiing is like trying to convince a jackmormon to pay his 10%! If you want skiers to stay off your land, they need to know where it is in the first place. By the way, I think we're starting to figure that out & your permitees, the Wasatch Powderbirds, can't be too happy about having to run over your tracks until it snows another three feet.

need i say anymore, he just summed it all up.

 

[ACG]

My $.02

I don't care if the photo was real or not. All That I care about is that snowmobilers got a bad rap on the UAC site, especially in the Wasatch range. We have a hard enough time keeping riding areas open, this is just another gig against us.

All this talk about skiers being POSs realy irritates me. Every time I see a skier in my terrain, no matter how much it irritates me I am polite and respectful. I slow way down, give them the right of way and offer a friend wave. I don't do it becase I am happy to see them there, I do it so at least one guy on a sled the passed that day was nice to them. They do, and always will have more power than us as sledders do so we better damn well keep them happy.

Obviously a skier has made it to this forum and actualy posted. Does anyone think that anything besides the first 3 or 4 posts in this thread make us look good? I don't think it did. This whole thread makes us look like arrogant *******s and I am kind of ashamed.

 

[FUAC]

The skier was a UDOT avalanche forecaster. The photo is real. The sledder was deliberately hazing the skier and riding above him in avalanche terrain. It isn't clear who was trespassing as private property boundaries are not clear in that drainage. The irritation isn't about access - there are a handful of property owners that have the legal right to ride in the area to access their mine claims and the avalanche forecaster recognizes that. This is about harassing people and violating basic avalanche terrain travel protocols.

That is never, ever acceptable.

 

[ACG]

The skier was a UDOT avalanche forecaster. The photo is real. The sledder was deliberately hazing the skier and riding above him in avalanche terrain. It isn't clear who was trespassing as private property boundaries are not clear in that drainage. The irritation isn't about access - there are a handful of property owners that have the legal right to ride in the area to access their mine claims and the avalanche forecaster recognizes that. This is about harassing people and violating basic avalanche terrain travel protocols.

That is never, ever acceptable.

Thanks for the input FUAC. I realized in the report that that is what the UAC was trying to get across. It was taken the wrong way here and made all of us look like arrogant *******s. I apologize for what has been said in this thread even though I had no part in it.

I really wish this whole thing can get removed so it doesn't get used for more ammo in shutting down public lands int he Wasatch...

 

[WXNic]

the intent to "harass" is very hard to tell from a picture - without getting the skiers and sledders together for a conference and then determining that was what was going on. maybe it was.

it is easy to say that it wasn't a smart or safe choice, but i think it's the back story that has several of your "arrogant a@#%@!" fellow sledders upset. coming from someone who doesn't know any parties involved. ???

 

[dirtywrong]

skiers are wack.

signed- a snowboarder

 

[snengineer]

The skier was a UDOT avalanche forecaster. The photo is real. The sledder was deliberately hazing the skier and riding above him in avalanche terrain. It isn't clear who was trespassing as private property boundaries are not clear in that drainage. The irritation isn't about access - there are a handful of property owners that have the legal right to ride in the area to access their mine claims and the avalanche forecaster recognizes that. This is about harassing people and violating basic avalanche terrain travel protocols.

That is never, ever acceptable.

Thanks for the other side of the story...it was hard to tell what was meant by the caption above the photo (highmarking above the group or sledding in an area generally void of sleds)....that indeed was a dangerous act to highmark above the skiers like that.

"Today I witnessed a blatant act of disrespect and disregard for safety in the mountains. There has historically been much controversy between the many different user groups of the Wasatch, too much to get into now, but it has gotten out of hand. A group of snowmobilers made their way into upper cardiff and began highmarking many slopes including those outside of their property rights. As they got further up the drainage they saw my party ascending below cardiac ridge and in an obvious attempt to intimidate, one of them put his sights on us and drove his sled directly towards us and highmarked one member of our group. It also just happened to be near one of those yawning glide cracks and again, not on their land. Completely unacceptable. Something needs to be done about this before someone gets hurt."

Great point, I'm sure there were ski tracks that where not on your land.....I mean Forest Service land also.


As far as the land issue goes, if it wasn't for private land owners the whole darn Wasatch front canyon's would be either wilderness area or ski resort property....so Dabull if it is true that area is your private land up there THANKYOU for upholding our constitution with land rights in America!!!! Until America becomes commy we wont need to worry about groups actually having success in making private land wilderness.

 

[snengineer]

My $.02

I don't care if the photo was real or not. All That I care about is that snowmobilers got a bad rap on the UAC site, especially in the Wasatch range. We have a hard enough time keeping riding areas open, this is just another gig against us.

All this talk about skiers being POSs realy irritates me. Every time I see a skier in my terrain, no matter how much it irritates me I am polite and respectful. I slow way down, give them the right of way and offer a friend wave. I don't do it becase I am happy to see them there, I do it so at least one guy on a sled the passed that day was nice to them. They do, and always will have more power than us as sledders do so we better damn well keep them happy.

Obviously a skier has made it to this forum and actualy posted. Does anyone think that anything besides the first 3 or 4 posts in this thread make us look good? I don't think it did. This whole thread makes us look like arrogant *******s and I am kind of ashamed.

I feel exactly the same except for the bold part, this is not true, we live in America, they have overun us in the past but it is changing course, we are gaining ground to make it a more even battle. keep hope alive!

 

[BossRev]

I can't say by looking at the Picture that the sledder was highmarking the skier.

The lines just don't match up. To me it looks as if the line above the skier was already there. And the Sledder came up from the right side of the skier...
Just going off of his position in the pic.

I guess the only peeps that will ever know the truth are the ones that where there that day.

 

[tudizzle]

So who was trespassing?

Weird that the skier who posted that he was in the group of skiers claims to not know of property boundaries...and yet property boundaries are mentioned in the UAC report that they provided?


Its like "well were not sure...there are boundaries...but historically we have riden there.

But when it comes to the sled....they know exactly where the boundaries fall...and that he is riding in an illegal forest service area?

 

[hyperduc]

Property owners (you know the ones who pay the taxes to own the property) usually know far better than the guy who just shows up to poach it.

I've dealt with this all the time on several pieces of family land, and as far as I am concerned the sledder was in the right (even if he was trying to bury the skier).

BTW the UAC just got it's last dime from me, like I need to pay someone to point out the obvious anyway...

 

[SnowBigDeal]

very interesting thread. Regarding the property boundaries, I don't know anything about that area so I don't have any input to offer.

However, regarding the posting of the "event" on the Utah Avalanche Center's website, I disagree with. If the situation occurred as explained on the Avy Center's website, then I would hope that the skiers would have attempted to flag down the snowmobilers and explain what was wrong about the situation. Educating in person has a much better affect than posting it up for the world to see on a publicly-funded website. If they truly want to try to mend relationships with sledders, then an in-person discussion will go a lot further than trying to make the other group look bad publicly.

 

[TheBreeze]

I agree. High-marking above skiers is obviously un-called for. However, puting it up in that fashion on a publicly funded web site is very telling as to the forecasters true motives.

 

[madsigntist]

So who was trespassing?

Weird that the skier who posted that he was in the group of skiers claims to not know of property boundaries...and yet property boundaries are mentioned in the UAC report that they provided?


Its like "well were not sure...there are boundaries...but historically we have riden there.

But when it comes to the sled....they know exactly where the boundaries fall...and that he is riding in an illegal forest service area?[/QUOTE


Classic. Excellent point Dizz.

Isn't this really the heart of the problem? Its always a double-standard with skiers it seems. The access should be open, but only to them.
Nallis seems to know exactly where the sledder shouldn't be but the skier and or Forecaster(knowledgeable professional), who should know that they were on PP, chose to ignore that part?

Just because there aren't posted signs, and you've been poaching for years, doesn't mean that its all yours.

I am in no way condoning what the sledder did tho, thats just plain stupid and dangerous.

If you see someone doing something dumb make an effort to educate them. In a courteous way of course

 

[ACMtnCat]

So who was trespassing?

Weird that the skier who posted that he was in the group of skiers claims to not know of property boundaries...and yet property boundaries are mentioned in the UAC report that they provided?


Its like "well were not sure...there are boundaries...but historically we have riden there.

But when it comes to the sled....they know exactly where the boundaries fall...and that he is riding in an illegal forest service area?

Brandon Makes a very good point. The skiers are pointing fingers at the same time they are completely in the wrong them selves. The skiers are on private property and should be ticketed every time they ski there!

BTW the UAC just got it's last dime from me, like I need to pay someone to point out the obvious anyway...

I may have to side with Hyperduc on this issue also. I got to say the UAC is not looking good in this story.