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I hope this wasn't one of you guys.
- Thread starter dfinn
- Start date
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Dabull
Well-known member
the uac new exactly what they were doing when they posted that pic,they even sent one to the forest service director and canyon patrol sheriff. dont be fooled they would love to see the end of motorizes vehicles in the back country,especially in the wasatch.we will continue to fight them as private land owners ,as we have for many years.
F
FUAC
Well-known member
We took down the comments from the January 7 observation in Cardiff Fork. The comments were written by the observer, not the Utah Avalanche Center, and we reserve the right to not include comments or photos if we feel they don't pertain to avalanches. We did not contact the Sheriff, the Forest Service, or anyone else with this observation.
Our mission is to give people the tools they need to stay alive around avalanches. We do not discriminate by the user's choice of travel, nor get involved in non avalanche-related issues.
One of the most basic rules taught in every avalanche class, book or video is to only go onto a slope with avalanche potential one at a time. The photo shows a good example of a bad decision. This photo can provide a learning experience. Avalanches don't care what you are riding and all users can agree that they want to come home safe at the end of the day.
Our mission is to give people the tools they need to stay alive around avalanches. We do not discriminate by the user's choice of travel, nor get involved in non avalanche-related issues.
One of the most basic rules taught in every avalanche class, book or video is to only go onto a slope with avalanche potential one at a time. The photo shows a good example of a bad decision. This photo can provide a learning experience. Avalanches don't care what you are riding and all users can agree that they want to come home safe at the end of the day.
I just noticed the comments were removed. Thanks. They were obviously biased, one sided and accusatory. Glad to see some positive action taken.
On a side note, I think dfinn needs a free upgrade to premium member. He single handedly recruited at least 3 new premium members with a single thread.
I just notice right before the last post that the comments have been taken down and replaced. Thank you for doing that.
I was looking at the picture as well just a few minutes ago and the track from the sled is at least 50 yards away from the skier if not further. For them to say that the skier was charged and thought he was going to get run over is a complete lie.
From the comments earlier about the more dangerous activities in crowded areas i guess we should ban all cars from the roads now too because there are so many people out there on the crowed roads and driving a car is a dangerous activity. (fast motors, heavy machinery) If you really think about it every time you pass a car in the opposite direction on a 2 lane highway you are 8 feet or less from death every time. Just do that math, 50 t mph one way and 50 mph the other way equals a 100 mph brick wall, and thats being conservative. Every day i travel down the highway i am taking more of a risk than in the backcountry on a sled. I pass more cars and put more people at risk every time i drive by them with my truck. One slip of the wheel, one momentary laps in judgment, one stupid text or phone call and you can kill many people in an instant or be killed in an instant.
Public land is for the public and should be allowed to be used in all different ways. Skiers hate snowmobilers and anything with an engine until they need to be rescued. I say if you don't allow motorized vehicles in for recreation then you shouldn't allow them in for rescue. Reap what you sow. Thats true wilderness.
PS I have taken many skies to the tops of the hills as well. And I have also taken them back down the canyon to their vehicles after their day of skiing. Just because they want to keep us out of their areas does not mean that I will not be civil to them. We all really can be friends and share the mountain. Just don't get on my bad side.
I was looking at the picture as well just a few minutes ago and the track from the sled is at least 50 yards away from the skier if not further. For them to say that the skier was charged and thought he was going to get run over is a complete lie.
From the comments earlier about the more dangerous activities in crowded areas i guess we should ban all cars from the roads now too because there are so many people out there on the crowed roads and driving a car is a dangerous activity. (fast motors, heavy machinery) If you really think about it every time you pass a car in the opposite direction on a 2 lane highway you are 8 feet or less from death every time. Just do that math, 50 t mph one way and 50 mph the other way equals a 100 mph brick wall, and thats being conservative. Every day i travel down the highway i am taking more of a risk than in the backcountry on a sled. I pass more cars and put more people at risk every time i drive by them with my truck. One slip of the wheel, one momentary laps in judgment, one stupid text or phone call and you can kill many people in an instant or be killed in an instant.
Public land is for the public and should be allowed to be used in all different ways. Skiers hate snowmobilers and anything with an engine until they need to be rescued. I say if you don't allow motorized vehicles in for recreation then you shouldn't allow them in for rescue. Reap what you sow. Thats true wilderness.
PS I have taken many skies to the tops of the hills as well. And I have also taken them back down the canyon to their vehicles after their day of skiing. Just because they want to keep us out of their areas does not mean that I will not be civil to them. We all really can be friends and share the mountain. Just don't get on my bad side.
I just noticed the comments were removed. Thanks. They were obviously biased, one sided and accusatory. Glad to see some positive action taken.
On a side note, I think dfinn needs a free upgrade to premium member. He single handedly recruited at least 3 new premium members with a single thread.
PM Christopher. He'd do it in a second. Just tell him Girlpowder thought it was an amazing idea.
BTW...Great posts sledders!
PM Christopher. He'd do it in a second. Just tell him Girlpowder thought it was an amazing idea.
BTW...Great posts sledders!
Done, now let's see if christopher gets on board.
It's so sad because this is just like the Mtn Bikers vs. Jeepers in Moab.
Both parties want land open for their own best interest but instead of combining efforts to create a driving force we separate ourselves. This is exactly what the Nazi's with all the Heavy Sponsors thrive on.
Wake up outdoor enthusiasts.
Both parties want land open for their own best interest but instead of combining efforts to create a driving force we separate ourselves. This is exactly what the Nazi's with all the Heavy Sponsors thrive on.
Wake up outdoor enthusiasts.
You know I was thinking about this situation again this morning and a thought occurred to me. We don't let people out on the roads in a car, truck, road bike, Diesel truck, etc without a license to do so. We give a half assed couple of classes and test to give a license for people drive on the roads and put everyone at danger when they do so.
Well, currently we let any Joe blow rent or buy a sled, skis, snowboard, snowshoes, etc and let them run wild in the backcountry. Yes you have to have drivers permit to ride a sled over 16 yrs old but seriously driving a snowmobile and a car are in no way the same thing. We all tell each other to go take an avy class and get educated and that is a great idea and everybody should do it. However that does not prevent the Joe blow who just rented a sled and is out for the first time to highmark you or any skier, boarder, snowshoer on the hill and trigger an avy and kill the both of you.
I think it is high time we made it mandatory to have a license to be in the backcountry on public land, whether that be a snowmobile, snowboarder, skier, snowshoer, or whatever the case may be. I think that before you can just go run amuck in the backcountry you should have a permit to do so. Also just like registering sleds, all skiers, boarders, shoers etc should have to register their equipment. They use the parking lots, trails and search as rescue just as much as any other group. It’s high time they start paying to use the land like the sledders do as well. With that registration they must provide a permit that allows them in the backcountry. This permit should be renewed every other year or so. Classes should include avy safety, trail rules, basic first aid, etc. In order to buy or rent a sled, skis, board etc, one must show permit before being allowed to buy or rent those products. I do understand that renting for a resort might be a different story. If you are found in the back country without this permit it should be a $1,000 fine.
I feel like we can coexist in the same areas if all users are educated and respectful enough to use the land together. Sledders should not highmark the same hill the skiers are on and vice versa. First come first served. Sledders should slow down when someone is on the trail to show respect and safety, and just like on the road slower traffic should move to the left. Don’t be a jack a$$ and stay four wide on a trail and block other users of the trail. Road rage is not limited to people in vehicles. This goes the same for sledders as well and other users.
I could go on and one but I think I will stop my rant there.
Any thoughts?
Well, currently we let any Joe blow rent or buy a sled, skis, snowboard, snowshoes, etc and let them run wild in the backcountry. Yes you have to have drivers permit to ride a sled over 16 yrs old but seriously driving a snowmobile and a car are in no way the same thing. We all tell each other to go take an avy class and get educated and that is a great idea and everybody should do it. However that does not prevent the Joe blow who just rented a sled and is out for the first time to highmark you or any skier, boarder, snowshoer on the hill and trigger an avy and kill the both of you.
I think it is high time we made it mandatory to have a license to be in the backcountry on public land, whether that be a snowmobile, snowboarder, skier, snowshoer, or whatever the case may be. I think that before you can just go run amuck in the backcountry you should have a permit to do so. Also just like registering sleds, all skiers, boarders, shoers etc should have to register their equipment. They use the parking lots, trails and search as rescue just as much as any other group. It’s high time they start paying to use the land like the sledders do as well. With that registration they must provide a permit that allows them in the backcountry. This permit should be renewed every other year or so. Classes should include avy safety, trail rules, basic first aid, etc. In order to buy or rent a sled, skis, board etc, one must show permit before being allowed to buy or rent those products. I do understand that renting for a resort might be a different story. If you are found in the back country without this permit it should be a $1,000 fine.
I feel like we can coexist in the same areas if all users are educated and respectful enough to use the land together. Sledders should not highmark the same hill the skiers are on and vice versa. First come first served. Sledders should slow down when someone is on the trail to show respect and safety, and just like on the road slower traffic should move to the left. Don’t be a jack a$$ and stay four wide on a trail and block other users of the trail. Road rage is not limited to people in vehicles. This goes the same for sledders as well and other users.
I could go on and one but I think I will stop my rant there.
Any thoughts?
I'm sure some people need to learn backcountry rules, but not for me. For me the problem is that public land is public land and I don't need a permit to use it winter, spring, summer or fall. There's alot of people in this UT section that hunt just like me and there is now way I'm getting a permit to go hike my butt off and glass for bucks in the backcountry.
Everyone that uses this land we ride sleds on should take it upon themselves to get educated in Avy classes and know how to test the snow and use your equipment. I don't need the State or Government telling me I need to do one more thing, they all ready do enough of that as it is.
I like that your thinking of options and that's how we get situations resolved but for me I don't like this idea!!
Everyone that uses this land we ride sleds on should take it upon themselves to get educated in Avy classes and know how to test the snow and use your equipment. I don't need the State or Government telling me I need to do one more thing, they all ready do enough of that as it is.
I like that your thinking of options and that's how we get situations resolved but for me I don't like this idea!!
I agree with you about letting the state run more of our lives. They allready run enough, but I can tell you one thing, I am going to be pissed if I am playing it safe and a bonehead comes by highmarks me or my buddy and one of us gets caught in an avy and dies. I guess if I die I wont be pissed any more, but if it is my dad, brother, friend or even a skier i am not going to be too happy. Also my wife and kid will not be very happy that a bonehead put their husband and father in the ground because they were not educated. If you want to hunt you have to get a permit right. Hunters safety permit to carry the gun and shoot an animal. Why not a backcountry safety permit?
The problem is not with 99% of the guys that get on these forums daily weekly or even monthly, because we talk about it all the time here and share it with our riding buddies. The problem lies with those that just go out for a weekend and don't check the weather, avy danger, etc. That goes for all users not just sledders. We preach on this forum all the time to tell you buddies but I can garrantee you some riders never get on any forums or websites and just go out an ride. Trust me I used to be just like them. I still find my self making msitakes but the big ones that put others at danger I have learned not to make and think about it in every situation now. We used to be a group that if a guy was on the hill stuck you get up there to help them. Now if you get stuck on an avy prone hill you better be able to get yourself out because we are not going to risk everybodys life in getting them unstuck. That's what a shovel is for.
The problem is not with 99% of the guys that get on these forums daily weekly or even monthly, because we talk about it all the time here and share it with our riding buddies. The problem lies with those that just go out for a weekend and don't check the weather, avy danger, etc. That goes for all users not just sledders. We preach on this forum all the time to tell you buddies but I can garrantee you some riders never get on any forums or websites and just go out an ride. Trust me I used to be just like them. I still find my self making msitakes but the big ones that put others at danger I have learned not to make and think about it in every situation now. We used to be a group that if a guy was on the hill stuck you get up there to help them. Now if you get stuck on an avy prone hill you better be able to get yourself out because we are not going to risk everybodys life in getting them unstuck. That's what a shovel is for.
I apologize, that you misunderstood me; I quoted you because I agreed.
First off BIG thanks to the FUAC for listening to us. Craig, Grant, Bruce, and the guys are top notch. They have our safety and mind and are helping to get us all more educated. Kudos for helping to calm a situation. 
In answer to sleds, space, skiers, wilderness. The more areas shut down from sledding, the more crowded the ones remaining become. Snowmobiling is increasing in popularity and decreasing in available space. Its not a good mix. Personally, I would love to see more wasatch canyons open to OHV use. The bulk of the wasatch is tied up in wilderness or ski resorts. So why then is wilderness not used for BC skiing? cause its really difficult to access. Cardiff is SUPER easy access for skiing which makes it so popular.
case in point: while snowmobiling Tony Grove yesterday, we were waiting for the groomer to finish and sitting at the trailhead, 16 people (4 different groups of 4) came to the trailhead with cross country skis. I stopped each group and asked them this: "You know there is a cross country only ski area with its own parking lot less than 1 mile north of here, why is it that you are skiing here?" without out fail, each group said cause the groomed trail. You know who pays for that trail and what will happen when we stop funding it? Nobody will go to that area anymore.
With regards to permits/ accredited licenses to access public land, thats a horrible idea. It took me 3 years and $180 to draw out lottery permits to hike Mt Whitney. 3 years to hike a mountain, with no guarantee that the dates i drew would have good weather. I have several other mountains I am putting in on lottery for. HOW STUPID IS THAT? I cant even hike my public lands anymore!! course if they did a $500 dollar lottery for 2 days riding in wilderness, i might be more than happy to enter it, repeatedly, under multiple names 
In answer to sleds, space, skiers, wilderness. The more areas shut down from sledding, the more crowded the ones remaining become. Snowmobiling is increasing in popularity and decreasing in available space. Its not a good mix. Personally, I would love to see more wasatch canyons open to OHV use. The bulk of the wasatch is tied up in wilderness or ski resorts. So why then is wilderness not used for BC skiing? cause its really difficult to access. Cardiff is SUPER easy access for skiing which makes it so popular.
case in point: while snowmobiling Tony Grove yesterday, we were waiting for the groomer to finish and sitting at the trailhead, 16 people (4 different groups of 4) came to the trailhead with cross country skis. I stopped each group and asked them this: "You know there is a cross country only ski area with its own parking lot less than 1 mile north of here, why is it that you are skiing here?" without out fail, each group said cause the groomed trail. You know who pays for that trail and what will happen when we stop funding it? Nobody will go to that area anymore.
With regards to permits/ accredited licenses to access public land, thats a horrible idea. It took me 3 years and $180 to draw out lottery permits to hike Mt Whitney. 3 years to hike a mountain, with no guarantee that the dates i drew would have good weather. I have several other mountains I am putting in on lottery for. HOW STUPID IS THAT? I cant even hike my public lands anymore!!
course if they did a $500 dollar lottery for 2 days riding in wilderness, i might be more than happy to enter it, repeatedly, under multiple names
S
snengineer
Well-known member
Thanks FUAC for correcting the problem.
No kidding...don't get me started on this one.....this is why I have stopped going to Zion canyon unless I have a lottery permit....they sure make it tempting to break these lame rules.
As far as Wilderness lottery permits...they already have this system set in place, correct me if I am wrong isn't it $500 ticket if you ride in wilderness?
It took me 3 years and $180 to draw out lottery permits to hike Mt Whitney. 3 years to hike a mountain, with no guarantee that the dates i drew would have good weather. I have several other mountains I am putting in on lottery for. HOW STUPID IS THAT? I cant even hike my public lands anymore!!
No kidding...don't get me started on this one.....this is why I have stopped going to Zion canyon unless I have a lottery permit....they sure make it tempting to break these lame rules.
As far as Wilderness lottery permits...they already have this system set in place, correct me if I am wrong isn't it $500 ticket if you ride in wilderness?
I think some of you have misunderstood my idea of permits for the back country. I was not saying that you would limit how many people that could go there but rather you have a license that says you have taken safety classes to make sure you are not going to put others at risk and know boundry areas. There would not be a limit on how many licenses there were but rather just like a drivers license for the back country. Maybe if we could educate the ignorant this way we could limit the amount of problems that are caused due to people not knowing the rules and common sense laws of the back country. People that just rent a sled may have to take a 30 min session before they are allowed to go off by themselves if they do not have the license. I was certainly not trying to put a limit on how many people could go there or make you have to draw out on using the land. More like a hunters saftey course for the backcountry users.
The problem with your idea is that this is what YOU would do if you were making the law requiring permits. Once lawmakers start playing with the idea they would surely cap the number of permits available to ride a given area. They wouldn't be happy just educating people. In addition they would see it as another revenue source and yet another tax to us. We need less government and more personal accountability. People need to be accountable for their actions, not require the government to make us be "accountable".
I totaly see your point of view and less restrictions is much better. Just wish we could inform our fellow riders a little more.
