GET FACTS STRAIGHT! Snowest Misleading Readers about Cooke City.

[LSB]

I had a really good talk with TRS this morning. Its great when people can sit down and talk about things civily.

Khogan it is not my place to name names. I'm not going to throw out people's names and get them involved in this thread so you can keyboard jockey away at them too. The only people I have named are Rick/Susan who on this issue yes we differ. On 99% of other things we don't. And btw Exxon=Sinclair so you really only listed 3 businesses and that's not saying how any of those lean anyway. Its not my place to speak for others. This thread finally was heading in a civil and good direction/discussion until you had to poke your rude little head back in.

 

[khogan]

LSB, you have the stats (who wants it who doesn't in Cooke) go ahead and throw it out there it would only substantiate your position if it was unanimously supported by some of the heavy hitters (and riders) in town.

Your profit margin is down, I am sorry. A lot of people in this day and age are not getting raises, or worse having to take pay cuts. You might have to do the same. Disposable incomes are down = less recreation.

The thing what gets me is you trying to disguise it as, "it will be better for everyone". Bringing the wrong people (busses of tourists), in addition to everything else, is only going to open the door to more public outcry against snowmobiling.

I have ridden from both sides, CJSH is much better than it used to be. I was fortunate at a young age to ride with "legendary" people like Bob Robinson, Larry "Weed" Wiedel, Gary Reichert, Gary Borland, Chuck Snow, and Gene Marker. There were no warming huts then, only Bob's little trailer at TofW. Bob managed to take his wife and Larry his son EVERY weekend and now apparently nobody else can ride without a boot dryer and every other perfect amenity. We had gravel roads, road through storms that were like being in a sandblaster on the top all with 121" leaf springed sleds. We took scoop shovels and spare gas to get over the switchbacks. Hell, we have even pitched tents and spent several nights at the Pilot Creek parking lot. Like SummitHD said, will making it more about accomodations make Cooke better? People like TRS truly have put in the time to make T of W a great place to ride and there tireless fight to keep the trail from the top to Pilot open. These people should be commended.

Last, why is it all about the people from the midwest getting there? Most, come via Billings. Billings to Pilot via CJSH is 3-4 hours depending on road conditions, Billings to Cooke via YNP (oh and did I mention you "have" to drive through the 1st and best National Park) is 4-5 hours. Rather than bitching about the 9 mile ride.....GO AROUND with your RV's, pusher's and enclosed trailers - it will cost you one hour of time. IF the extra 5 gallons of fuel is the deal breaker you probably shouldn't have come. When the girls/kids went, we drove around. Guys ride = Pilot or Switchbacks.

TRS has done an excellent job of laying out the facts. He is not $ driven as it appears LSB is. That is pure speculation on my behalf....why else would LSB be SO in favor of it?

And yes, the road is open right now. Anybody that wants it open should load up and rush up there.

 

[mthoodskiguy]

Not plowed please!!!! To little to go around as is....

 

[T G]

Khogan your exactly right! I know TRS personally, he has spent numerous hours bettering snowmobiling for us all. He has received several awards, not just the state ones but national ones as well. He has been involved in the WY Trail System ever since I've know him (12yrs) If he says theres a problem, you better look into it, because there IS A PROBLEM. I like riding Cooke the way it is I'm there at least once a year. Do you think the economy could have anything to do with the problem? Diesel $4.50+ gal & 9%+ Unemployment?? Anyone remember the last guy that promiced us change?? & just where are we ending up? Not so good.

 

[WyoBoy1000]

I'll get back to this tonight. I am loaded and headed for the Beartooth.

???, curious.

How about plowing and then not plowing from 1/15/## to 4/15/## there is hardly enough snow to ride the trail over to beartooths before and after this time anyway. It would be a test. If we could correct the trail issue I am for plowing it for at least one season and then re evaluating.

One more ??? if we established a trail with the road plowed where would you stand.

 

[B C]

Anyone remember the last guy that promiced us change?? & just where are we ending up? Not so good.

Hahahaha, surely you're not comparing the author of this thread to Obama?

HEY vdo1948! WHERE ARE YOU? Not only was this an anit-liberal remark, it's against the ring-leader! Damn political police are never around when ya need em.

WyoBoy raises a good point...IF a trail could be established to keep Bearthoots connected, would that change much? Obviously some are against it for other reasons.

 

[WyoBoy1000]

I have a question for "molester"

What are your reasons for giving me bad rep., if you have a problem lets here it.

 

[TRS]

Robert,
Thank you for letting me into your home. I thought it would be helpful if we met and traded war stories.
I just returned from riding in the Beartooth. Picture from Saturday.
Any way, in regards to the question if I would agree to plowing the plug if a trail and parking areas could be orchestrated. Yes, orchestrated and built prior to plowing. We have been down this road before. Prior to the road being upgraded, the snowmobile community was promised in numerous meetings over the last few decades, a trail would be built along with the reconstruction of US 212 from Cooke City to Pilot. You can see where that got us.
Blue Lakes, a place in California I go in the winter to ride (riding there since 1987). The National Forest and the County came to an agreement. If you let us close the Scotts Lake(crater) and Red Lake parking to snowmobiles, we will build snowmobilers a winter parking area and winter camp ground. Guess what, no parking or campground. The Forest can't even find where the funding that was appropriated for the improvements went. But we lost a large riding area.
So I say build first, agree to plow when and only when the parking areas and connecting trails are completed.
The Canadian Lynx is on the threatened list. Greg(state trails employee) and I were clearing a new authorized snowmobile trail from the Beartooth trail, at the gravel pit, down the old wagon road to Garnett Carry's store. This would allow access to food and fuel on the Wyoming side. We had about 200 yards left to complete the more than three mile trail. We received a call from Forest Service personnel with a cease and desist order. Hair traps were located at Ghost Creek and Muddy Creek and they had Canadian Lynx hair in them. They were located next to and near the new trail. The trail was never finished or marked. No net gain. Here is an article about the falsifying of the hair study. www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GAO-02-488R. The hair traps at Ghost and Muddy were a part of this study.
We had two young gents from Bozeman spend the next two winters doing a lynx study in the Crandall area. They didn't find any. But the "no net gain" order did not change.
We have laws in this country we have to abide by if we like them or not. An EIS will have to be done.
I didn't get to write about the Pilot Parking, Oh well, another time.

 

[TRS]

I forgot to add this FWS link on the Lynx.

training.fws.gov/library/Pub5/Lynx_consassess_2000.pdf

On page 83 under Programmatic planning-standards it states:
On Federal Lands in Lynx habitat, allow no net increase in groomed or designated over-the-snow routes and snowmobile play areas by LAU. Winter logging activitiy is not subject to this restriction.

This says it all folks.

 

[TRS]

I thought maybe I should print a generic copy of the NEPA flow chart. It shows the process. You can research it further for you reading pleasure.

Come on, we can't be done here. Maybe I have given you enough information to make an educated, non emotional decision? The meeting is this Friday in Cooke City at 10:30 am. Please be there if you can, if you are for or against the plowing.

 

[khogan]

TRS thanks for the information. I think it demonstrates that this cannot be a knee jerk reaction to just start a movement and get the road plowed to boost declining profits that all businesses are experiencing (not just Cooke City). My last experience with an EIS, it took 7 years to complete the study(unless you are an oil and gas company which follow different reg's), before any decisions can even be looked at.

One other critical piece of info that LSB has failed to mention, is the current infrastructure in Cooke City. While Cooke has a water board and city water (which was replaced in 2009), they DO NOT have a sewer district or public sewer system. Many businesses are currently in violation with current septic tanks, drainfield failures, drainfield capacities, holding tanks, and treatments. During the summer season there are locations in town that raw sewage is surfacing. Thus the reason every business has a porta-john outside in the summer.

Increased traffic = increased sewage volumes. This leads to several problems:
1. Not having a sewer district, Cooke City is not even eligible for government subsidization. The town still has not come together and voted in a district - step one.
2. Land - there is none readily available to put in a system on (lagoons). There is discussion of using the Soda Butte area (superfund reclamation east of town), however it has its own problems. First, reclamation will not be completed for another 5 years. Second, the ground is laced with heavy metals and toxins (arsenic, cyanide, etc), not something ideal to add water to.
3. Discharge permit - Cooke City does not have one. They are literally impossible to get now if you don't have one (ie grandfathered in). This means the sewage cannot be discharged into the creek once treated. Thus eliminating a self contained systems (clarifiers, digesters, UV systems) rather they will have to use old school pond systems that leach, requiring more land.
4. Cost - The system, if they get a sewage district, if they get the land from DEQ that is currently under a superfund, and if they qualify for grants, will cost $5-$10M. Either way the district will have to front a large portion of that money with SID taxes to pay for the loans that they would be required to front.
5. Park Co. Sanitarian, since they are in continued violation in Cooke in the summer because of the increased traffic, has made mention that they could be shut down (individual businesses) until corrections are made.

This is just another layer on the onion that is not being thought through. From what I know there are 3 businesses behind this push for plowing the plug. Is the movement to increase profits or make Cooke City truly a "better" place.

 

[khogan]

Another question for LSB since we are really digging into the logistics of this (and I am not trying to make this personal).

Right now the NPS has an agreement to plow the switchbacks and the plug (in the spring). Who do you propose plow this in the winter? 4 miles is in Wyoming, 5 miles in Montana. Do both states send up a rotary plow or just one? Wyoming's closest DOT shop is south of Clark (around 30 miles from Pilot Creek) but does not have a rotary, I think MT's closest DOT is at Carbella which is 20 miles north of Gardiner (80 miles from Cooke). There is not a rotary in that distric either.

I have mentioned the costs on the rotary vs. plows before. Here are some numbers: rotary daily fuel = 200 gal, plow daily fuel = 75 gal. Rotaries are slow, they only run about 10-15 mph and have a 7.5' head on them. (= 3 passes on the road to clear it to 2 way traffic). Plow's have 10' head and "throw" the snow best at 45mph+. However, plows are only effective if there is storage area for the snow (ie there isn't an 8' wall, or hallway as will need to be carved). And in my costs laid out before, the maintenance factors on a rotary vs a plow are about 7:1.

I am not trying to be an A$$ on this LSB, the logistics simply do not work without someone stepping up with a lot of cash. Cash that tax payers probably shouldn't have to be burdened with, but rather the user's and businesses that benefit from this. Cash for plowing, USFS/EIS/Etc "stuff", that TRS seems to have a full handle on, and a sewage issue that most don't know or understand.

Again, I am not trying to personally attack you LSB. I think this is a 5-10 year project at best, only if it is what is best for the area. Then, what are the impacts to the riding??? There are still plenty of places to drive to (Togwotee, Snowies, Island Park, West Yellowstone). We have all heard the last best place montras. Let's not be having a conversation in 3 years saying, "Man, remember Cooke when....."

 

[WyoBoy1000]

Sounds like we better work on getting the right people elected. In years past where I grew up in north WY the nps did what ever they want. But in the last 6-8years our local government has been keeping recreation alive, and expanding. (mainly because of one county commissioner) So its going to be a long term and has to start with the right people in the right places or it will only be worse. I am for opening the road but it concerns me of the lynx and sewage issues going on. We need to scrub the lynx thing (dont know how but it pis$es me off to no end, and on the big horns I heard of it once and then nothing-wtf) The sewage issue is huge, if it got political with the DEQ they could shut down Cooke and that could end everything we are working on, people need to get that figured out. Because I don't have to gather all the info on the ins and outs and political ins and outs its beyond just stating one way or the other. I would appreciate both sides and am in a middle ground for now. Please keep the info coming and let me know if I can help.

 

[Jeff C]

I went to Cooke City once back in 2000. I would not again park in that lot and sled my way in. Got tie downs stolen, trailer disconntected from truck and moved into a snow bank..........

I have no idea if these sort of things are still an issue or not, but getting to that parking lot from Minnesota at 6am, temps -30, hauling all that crap on your sled to get into Cooke,,,,,,,,,,, not worth it. We ended up waiting until the sun came up and the temps moderated at least a little. I think we could have gotten there faster had we just kept driving and not waiting in the truck for the temps to come up a little.

Next time it will be us driving the extra time so our stuff could be in town. If I remember right, the drive around added two hours to the trip.........

It would be convenient to have that road plowed, but it would be just that, CONVENIENT. It is not a deal breaker for me to have to drive all the way around......

If it makes sense, plow the sucker, if it is a real PITA, then don't.......

 

[TRS]

I don't know why people complain about riding in 9 miles. In the early '90s, when our kids were little, 4-6-8yrs old we would drive to Pahaska, unload and haul all our belongings 85 miles to West Yellowstone for the weekend. Me, Wife, 3 kids, it was an adventure. Seems these days everyone wants instant gratification. I'm sorry, getting off subject here.

 

[khogan]

I have to concur with TRS on this. If it is that much of an inconvience there are other great riding places that you can back you vehicle up to the motel door - they are all more than happy to have your business too.

I made this trip last year at Christmas (over CJSH) with my father (now in his 70's) and my 8 year old son. Everyone rode their own sled in and nobody as of yet has experienced mental or physical trauma from the trip. As a kid I made that trip with my dad. It only makes me like the area more. Please don't make Cooke a "resort" area as SummitHD pointed out. Leave your boot dryers at home, pack lean, and bring a sled or small pull behind trailer if necessary.

 

[Jeff C]

I have to concur with TRS on this. If it is that much of an inconvience there are other great riding places that you can back you vehicle up to the motel door - they are all more than happy to have your business too.

I made this trip last year at Christmas (over CJSH) with my father (now in his 70's) and my 8 year old son. Everyone rode their own sled in and nobody as of yet has experienced mental or physical trauma from the trip. As a kid I made that trip with my dad. It only makes me like the area more. Please don't make Cooke a "resort" area as SummitHD pointed out. Leave your boot dryers at home, pack lean, and bring a sled or small pull behind trailer if necessary.

Well, that is a neat idea, but there are alot of people who do not want to leave their truck and trailer unattended on that parking lot for a week. I have heard of numerous stories (Mine being one of them), of stuff being taken, trailers taken, trucks broken in to etc. Also, if you are one of those guys who likes to wrench or needs to wrench, hauling all your tools is a PITA.

I am at a point in my life where I want to get out of the truck after a 14 hour trip and actually be there, and not have to unload and drag all that crap with you.

Having said that though, I would have no problem driving around the extra 2 hours for that luxury.

I like my boot dryer, I like having all that stuff along that makes a trip more enjoyable. If that makes me a wimp, then so be it. I'll drive around then.........

 

[khogan]

The drive around will cost you 1 hour.

Are the convienences worth ruining Cooke?

Our, you could ride somewhere that you can have all of your amenities. Right? Here are a few - Alpine, WY; Jackson, WY; Togowotee, WY, Rabbit Ears, CO; Wolf Creek, CO; Island Park, ID; Snowies, WY; Bighorns, WY; Pinedale, WY; Vale Pass, CO; Meeker, CO; West Yellowstone, MT. = Problem solved.

All these places are no Cooke, but will have your amenities.

Another random thought....put your tie downs away, lock your truck, and buy a padlock for your trailer. That easy.

 

[TurboT]

Sounds like we better work on getting the right people elected. In years past where I grew up in north WY the nps did what ever they want. But in the last 6-8years our local government has been keeping recreation alive, and expanding. (mainly because of one county commissioner) So its going to be a long term and has to start with the right people in the right places or it will only be worse. I am for opening the road but it concerns me of the lynx and sewage issues going on. We need to scrub the lynx thing (dont know how but it pis$es me off to no end, and on the big horns I heard of it once and then nothing-wtf) The sewage issue is huge, if it got political with the DEQ they could shut down Cooke and that could end everything we are working on, people need to get that figured out. Because I don't have to gather all the info on the ins and outs and political ins and outs its beyond just stating one way or the other. I would appreciate both sides and am in a middle ground for now. Please keep the info coming and let me know if I can help.

The newly elected Park county commissioners will prove why they were elected. Look @ there backgrounds and that will show you what they are all about

 

[WyoBoy1000]

been asking around.
Everyone I talk to around here says plow it. When I ask them, what about all the extra people it will bring, everyone says, "so what we always ride fresh snow don't we".