GET FACTS STRAIGHT! Snowest Misleading Readers about Cooke City.

[hobbes]

Lets look at this from a different angle. Look up these organizations on the web. Yellowstone Business Partnership www.yellowstonebusiness.org , Deleware North Company www.delawarenorth.com ,also Linx www.linx.coop
The YBP is advocating plowing the so called plug (Cooke to Pilot) along with plowing internal roads of Yellowstone National Park. While you visit their site,www.yellowstonebusiness.org look at their member list.
Delaware North is coming to West Yellowstone. Click on their destination list.
Linx is a public transportation group run by the Yellowstone Business Partnership. Bus Tours. They want a seamless transportation system throughout the 27 county Greater Yellowstone service area.
After reading info on these sites you decide why they want the plug plowed. They are going to drive through Cooke City and wave goodbye in their rear view mirror. Taking all the benefit of the open road with them$$$$$$. Do you think us wee snowmobilers are going to have a chance.

Can you explain to me why BUSLOADS of people passing through Cooke City could somehow be a BAD thing for snowmobilers? Other than maybe having to fight over the last beef jerky at one of the businesses in town that would benefit from it?

Here is a novel idea... how about working WITH a company like Linx to make Cooke City a scheduled stop. Possibly selling fuel, food, and God forbid maybe a future stay at one of the many hotels because they fell in love with the place just like I did. How about just the foot traffic passing by the donation buckets for S&R and "Keep your tour possible by donating to keep Hwy 212 open for future use"?

I really like the idea of plowing the road and putting in a few parking lots along the way for us to trailer out from Cooke and ride in WY. 99% of the time we don't ride WY just because of the length of the trail ride causing the fuel issue. I could actually see WY trail passes going up in sales with this opening.

 

[WyoBoy1000]

Could someone PLEASE explain to me how plowing the road you loose access to the beartooths.

The access would be better, you could trailer over without the fuel issue, and you don't have to ride the road to get from point A to point B. It may not be as nice of a trail but still passable.

 

[LSB]

Lets look at this from a different angle. Look up these organizations on the web. Yellowstone Business Partnership www.yellowstonebusiness.org , Deleware North Company www.delawarenorth.com ,also Linx www.linx.coop
The YBP is advocating plowing the so called plug (Cooke to Pilot) along with plowing internal roads of Yellowstone National Park. While you visit their site,www.yellowstonebusiness.org look at their member list.
Delaware North is coming to West Yellowstone. Click on their destination list.
Linx is a public transportation group run by the Yellowstone Business Partnership. Bus Tours. They want a seamless transportation system throughout the 27 county Greater Yellowstone service area.
After reading info on these sites you decide why they want the plug plowed. They are going to drive through Cooke City and wave goodbye in their rear view mirror. Taking all the benefit of the open road with them$$$$$$. Do you think us wee snowmobilers are going to have a chance.

I wanted to stay out arggh but here I am. I just want to say that yes TRS while these groups DO exist, even the park is not taking them seriously. Just look at the most recent travel plan preffered alternative from YNP. It didn't bode well for their plan.

Now what your point really is (and what the point of Mr.Vulgar earlier was) is a fear of bringing in a new clientele alongside the snowmobiler. This isn't a knock on that viewpoint, just clearing it up a little. I can understand that fear even. What I personally have tried to add to that discussion (when I've had the opportunity to have it) is that I have a LOT of experience with catering to both clienteles simultaneously. From my experience they get along just fine. What I have seen is that the "extreme enviros" decided a long time ago to just avoid Cooke. They stay in Gardiner and thats that. The more levelheaded people who enjoy being in Lamar and don't hate everything with a motor are more than happy to stay here in Cooke alongside a snowmobiler. I can only see where that trend would continue. Again I understand your fear, but from personal experience it hasn't played out that way.

OK NOW IM DONE

 

[LSB]

Could someone PLEASE explain to me how plowing the road you loose access to the beartooths.

The access would be better, you could trailer over without the fuel issue, and you don't have to ride the road to get from point A to point B. It may not be as nice of a trail but still passable.

WyoBoy because it is being portrayed as we want to plow the road and just destroy their trail. Therefore they have less trail, less ticket sales, etc, leads to the loss of the ENTIRE beartooth trail system and on and on.

That's not what anyone here wants. We want to plow the road AND keep a trail, ITS ONLY A FEW MILES OF TRAIL that we are talking about needing to create. You would think that if we solved all the issues ie: parking, trail, etc. everyone would be happy. Not necessarily the case.

And the argument that we will lose our remoteness is kind of silly, as if in the summer we are not still REMOTE as hell. Plowing the road doesn't physically move our town or the mountains. I guess it does allow us to drive 2 hours to Wal Mart instead of 3 though, so yeah a little less remote .

Ok F me guys Im done !!

 

[summithd]

Can't wait for the first big hotel to open in Cooke (already a freaking Super 8). Soon guys, we'll be living the lush life in Cooke at the Hilton or Comfort Inn or Best Western with indoor swimming pools!! Doesn't get any better than that! Open road = more people. More people = more rooms. Perfect example is the construction of the mighty Super 8...at that time the town was in need of more rooms to accomodate all the tourists - so someone capitalized on that opportunity. Same thing will happen, maybe not in the next few years...but give it ten years.

Heck, by then it will be time for some businesses owners in Cooke to retire and they can make out good by selling there property to an investor or whoever.

Plus we'll probably have huge paved parking lots to park our huge rigs and trailers on. And by that time the riding area will be half of what it is now...but who cares cause we can belly up to the nice bars and the hottub at the nice hotels!! I'm all for it, hurry up and plow the road!!

 

[WyoBoy1000]

I know what people are getting at, its just ridiculous. A trail could be established without a actual trail, there is a way to get to and from. What do you mean by loss of tickets.

Cooke will remain remote, but are chances of keeping it from being turned to wilderness will be a lot better. But it could use the little extra business. Again I live in Red Lodge, it is a complete tourist town, snowmobile access, ski run, hiking, camping, everything. You would think it would be a little more up class and packed like jackson holes. Well its still very remote, and I havent seen more than 4 trucks with sleds (besides ours) since in the last 2 years.

 

[w2bridin]

Skidoorulz

Think about it! We have to leave at 5 am to get up to Pilot at 8pm then unload all your crap (IN THE DARK) and lug it into town on your sled. Then have your ramp and tie downs stole off your trailer probably just cause you have ND plates. Now I know for you living in billing you probably make a few one day or weekend trips so your gear is minimal. It costs almost 800 dollars for fuel and about 30 hrs in the vehicle to get out there so I stay for a few days. Now that easy trip into town for 10 miles I have to lug a weeks worth of cloths, some tools, we also like to bring some extra parts (because we are in the middle of nowhere) extra gear like 2nd pair of boots or a boot dryer at the same time wearing my abs bag(NEVER SLED IN MTNS WITH OUT THAT!) That is what sucks not the riding. One year we made a big crate on skis to get our stuff to town that worked great till the front skis let loose 2 miles out of town in the moguls and we had to carry all our stuff plus that crate out to the parking lot. If all us flatlanders could just come up for the day and cruise in with a shirt and a toothbrush it would not matter to us either.

I do see a few neg. like parking and cost of plowing so I dont know If I would vote yes or no. I can see why LSB wants it plowed as there would definatly be more traffic from ND and MN thats not even a question.

 

[TRS]

Robert,
Lets get one thing clear, I could care less about sharing with new clients. Robert, I do not know you nor you me. I have been associated with this trail system in Wyoming for many years. I have received two National Awards for my involvement in building the trail system in the Beartooth.
The plug you talk of plowing is not a mere 8 or 9 miles it is 15 miles. It is from the Jct. of US212 to Cooke City.
From the Jct. of US212 to Pilot Parking area and the lot itself is plowed through an annual agreement between Park County Wyoming, Shoshone National Forest, and the Wyoming State Trails Program.
Your clients can complain about buying Wyoming registrations, but who do you think carries the burden of plowing from the Jct. of US212 to Pilot Creek and the parking area?
If you recall last winter '09-'10 there was an outcry from Cooke "Why isn't the road and the parking lot plowed". People were mad because historically it had been plowed. This was a change from the norm. The Forest, Park County, and Wyoming Trails could not come to an agreement. Money is always an issue these days. With no agreement the road was not to be plowed. We started an e-mail campaign on this forum. It inundated the offices of these agencies and the agreement was signed. A comment was made "Didn't know snowmobilers had that much clout". I live in Wyoming and purchase a Montana permit, along with Idaho and California. If you are going to go to Disney World why wouldn't you buy a gate pass? $25 come on. With a $50,000 pickup, $8,000 trailer, $12,000 snowmobile, $150.00 a day in Cooke, give me a break.
I have documentation on my desk that informs me that if the road is plowed grooming on the Wyoming side will cease. The ease proclaimed in this forum about building a new trail is nonsense. Has anyone seen a new trail developed or marked since the Lynx fiasco?
A little history about the trail from Pilot to the Jct. It may be before your time. The B4 sued to stop snowmobiling on the old county road, they won. That is why and how the trail was moved to the fire break. B4 also did not want the road plowed from the Jct., that didn't fly.
We have been on the ground at the Jct. with the Forest Service in the past trying to get a parking area. The Chief Joseph and the Beartooth Highway is considered a scenic byway. The Forest could not find a spot that wouldn't be visible from any of the roadways. I don't think that has changed. If the road is plowed please help us find a place to put parking for those that will trailer over to the Beartooths. That extra five miles on the back trail is to far to ride. It's sure funny how people complain about riding into Cooke on a groomed trail from Pilot. They want the road plowed to get into Cooke,but they will ride the ditch bank all the way back to pilot to access the Beartooths if the road is plowed. I'm scratching my head. I have a big target on my wall that says bang head here. Go figure.
I am trying to save our trail system. In all reality, with the road plowed, in time I think it will be back to the good old days. Remember when we had only the upper parking lot at Pilot, maybe 20 rigs. Perfect. We could go to the Beartooths and anywhere a quarter mile off the road you wouldn't find a track, well only those of Bob Robinson. Man those were the days. Then some guy got with the Wyoming State Trails and decided we needed to let people know what they are missing. Need to get this done before the Forest prohibits it. Lets mark some trails so people can access our playground. Not that many will come. Wow, now we need a safety shelter (was warming hut). I can go on and on. Robert you started this thread to inform the public, so here we are. Next I will give you some history on the Pilot Parking area on how we nearly lost it a few times.

 

[skidoorulz]

TRS. Didn't Bob Robinson invent the snowmobile?

 

[WyoBoy1000]

What are the specifics of why the trails would no longer be just because the road got plowed??? or the grooming stop???

 

[LSB]

Robert,
Lets get one thing clear, I could care less about sharing with new clients.

Well for a lot of folks that I have spoken with that is a main concern, glad to hear for you its not.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone thinks that anything comes easy. Just some think its worth the effort, others think it'll do harm, others are unsure, it's time for talk. If nothing else happens, there will at least be a much needed discussion.

 

[firecatguy]

I see alot of "this is my area" and we dont want you here.......kinda what trs said in last post.....

 

[LSB]

Can't wait for the first big hotel to open in Cooke (already a freaking Super 8). Soon guys, we'll be living the lush life in Cooke at the Hilton or Comfort Inn or Best Western with indoor swimming pools!! Doesn't get any better than that! Open road = more people. More people = more rooms. Perfect example is the construction of the mighty Super 8...at that time the town was in need of more rooms to accomodate all the tourists - so someone capitalized on that opportunity. Same thing will happen, maybe not in the next few years...but give it ten years.

Heck, by then it will be time for some businesses owners in Cooke to retire and they can make out good by selling there property to an investor or whoever.

Plus we'll probably have huge paved parking lots to park our huge rigs and trailers on. And by that time the riding area will be half of what it is now...but who cares cause we can belly up to the nice bars and the hottub at the nice hotels!! I'm all for it, hurry up and plow the road!!

I don't understand this stuff. The majority of us (snowmobilers) seem to lean conservative on most issues. We most likely all hold to capitalistic ideas and either talk about or actually try to make them succeed in different arenas. You yourselves are getting a foothold in the Film Industry and I applaud you for your effort.

That being said, on this particular subject, I have seen more people in this thread where it seems those principles no longer apply. Like those of us in Cooke don't hold those same rights and dreams. We have become evil and demonized for practicing what the rest of you most likely preach. If we have to improve, just like you, we will find ways to do it. Its as if how dare people try to better themselves or the businesses they own.

Again it seems like for a lot of locals who are against this its purely for personal reasons. They want Cooke to be what they want, when they want, and then they can go back home to the big city with all their amenities.

It's as if I ran a "Snowmobile DVD Film Makers Assosciation" and we decided we only wanted to allow the film companies to make films on VHS because it reminded us of the old days and we just liked the way it looked. Well no one watches VHS anymore and you want to put your films on DVD or even that fancy BluRay. But no, I force you to continue only on VHS and you finally go out of business. Am I going out of business, no of course not, but you get my point.

 

[TRS]

skidoorulz,
I think Bob may have been there. LOL

WyoBoy1000,
The Forest Service has a no net gain of motorized trails. Remember the Canadian Lynx?. According to Terry Root we are trading the footprint, if you may, of the snowmobile trail for the plowed surface of the road. That eliminates the trail. In Wyoming you cannot operate a snowmobile on a plowed road. If it is plowed no snowmobiles, no trail. To put a trail alongside the highway it would have a new footprint. If it was possible to and make it through the EIS we would have to trade an equal amount of of groomed trail some where else in the system for the new trail. Example 10 miles of new groomed trail to Cooke along US212, we would have to give up the 10 miles of groomed trail that gets us to the warming hut. I hope this answers your question.

 

[WyoBoy1000]

So where talking about from the WY border to pilot creek, How far is that. If that is the case then why isn't the red lodge side groomed or plowed, So we must be getting screwed on that deal. Or do they have a set mileage of groomed trail and no more, does that mean if its groomed 2 wide it counts for being twice as far. There are some trails on the big horns that I have never seen sleds on but are groomed, maybe we should pull it for this. Or maybe trail riders should go over there, its a way better place for trail riders IMO.

The road is wide enough to put 2 vehicles and a groomer down it. So why not do it that way and if they say no grooming, then we get them to leave enough of it unplowed for sleds and people will just have to deal with it until we get something changed or get off the road and ride on over, or better yet load up save some gas and time and haul the sleds over.

But he biggest problem I see, is that we can all fight with each other just fine but we havent figured out how to get together and tell government to shove it up there azz on these restriction. Has anyone out of the thousands around that area ever seen a that so called lynx, I have never heard of one being sited in the winter.

Over on the Big Horns we have been fighting off all kinds of crap for years, you wouldn't believe the some of the crap but so far its only gotten better. So why is it getting better here (better trail, more groomed trails, better access)

 

[B C]

I see alot of "this is my area" and we dont want you here.......kinda what trs said in last post.....

Not really. Sounds like a guy who had put an azzload of time and effort into keeping an area open. A guy who is passionate about our sport for sure. Being the Beartooths are prolly my favorite all time riding area, I give a big thanks to TRS and his work.

On the other hand a Hilton Garden Inn at Cooke would be sweet.

You better get on the hot tub install Robert, before it's too late.

 

[TRS]

I'll get back to this tonight. I am loaded and headed for the Beartooth.

 

[skidoorulz]

Well I have reached my limit and cannot read anymore of this discussion as I will not pay to be a member and most things on here are not worth reading after 75 posts, this is differant.To those who say put the trail on the road beside the plowed part. Hasn't anyone realized that when they plow they also put down sand and gravel with mag chloride mixed in and sometimes salt? All that stuff is going to be plowed onto the trail right beside of the road which as we all know the sand and gravel mixed into the groomed trail will eat up the Hifax and the mag chloride and salt will eat the heck out of the aluminum on the sleds

 

[khogan]

TRS - nice post.

Talk is cheap..."I would come more if the road were plowed", easy to say now getting the hopes of LSB up so he can see $$$$.

BTW, LSB still has not posted the businesses that "want" this but has failed to post the businesses that do. Does the following want this:

Exxon - Y/N
Antlers - Y/N
Sinclair - Y/N
Soda Butte - Y/N

I have a pretty good idea of those that do support. The same that would sell their sole to make a buck. They are ALSO the same people that don't ride. So, they don't care what it will do to Cooke as long as it puts $ in their pocket. THAT, is the silver lining of this movement.

Here are a few things to think about if you truly love Cooke and love the riding:

1. Adding more people to the area will not make the riding better.
2. You will no longer roll into a little sledding community (what a cool site it is now - it is like rolling into Sturgis) to park your sled in front of the motel/bar/rest., because there will be enclosed trailers lining the streets.
3. Access to the Beartooths will be cut off. You plow the road, the trail behind the B4 will be closed there will be an EIS required to run along the highway, blah blah blah....That will put a fork in that access.
4. Your going to run everyone up Miller to access Cooke...Huge safety risk.
5. Plowing costs on the highway will be astronomical. Saying they plow 100 miles on each side is just not true. They plow about 60 miles up CJSH as needed for many WYOMING residents, that live in Sunlight and the B4. The other side is state highway, it is plowed to Gardiner. The 60 miles of Federal Highway (which is also what the portion of 212 is that we are discussing) through the park is the only true portion that is only plowed for Cooke. Comparing that plowing 0-6', to a steady 6-10' is hardly comparable. Running a plow verses a rotary are additionally totally different costs (operating costs on a plow - around $75/hr + fuel + labor, running a rotary $250/hr + fuel x2 (truck/rotary) + labor.
6. Plowing costs in town will increase and hardly be logistical with the trailers parked there. Will LSB be picking up the cost of this plowing to accommodate his residents?
7. How will you address the residents that live between Cooke and Pilot? Are they for this, again it would be nice to see the names? How will they get access? Will each one have a pullout plowed so they can park the car, and get on a sled to get to there house or will they have to have there lane plowed? Again hardly practical.

I have a dog in this fight. I am a property owner and I live to ride Cooke on a weekly basis in the summer (ATV) and the winter (Sleds). If you all know what is good for the area, you should know this will not make our recreation better. It is strictly money driven.

The good news...LSB and a couple other who want this will make lots of money. The fact is you have based your sole source of winter income around people's disposable income. As the economy constricts, now you want to throw out all good judgement for your own personal greed. Close the doors for the winter and go down country like most businesses do in Cooke if it is that bad (or raise your rates...).

So yes, you will see more people, more riders, less powder, and the businesses that support this will make lots of money. Let's go back though, to those "other" businesses. Why are they not struggling LSB? Have they maybe been there long enough to understand the cyclical nature of this sport/business. Why do they oppose it? Do you think they know what will happen to Cooke if this happens?

Just my thoughts - hate to see Cooke get ruined.

 

[skidoorulz]

I just read on another thread that 212 is now open. For all those who want the road plowed so you can drive in, this is your oppurtunity. Get after it. Support all those businesses that the road not being open keeps you from doing. The snow is still rideable for at least another month. The road only open for 4 months a yer has now been debunked. 18 days in May all of June July August September October and let's say 15 days in November. is a total of 186 days. Last time I looked at the calender there was 365 days in a year, 1/2 of that would be 182 1/2 days. So I guess we need to say that the road is open more than 6 months of the year. That seems to me to be a pretty good compromise to the 2 groups. 6 months of being able to drive in and 6 months of not. Heck I would even be for keeping it open till December first and reopen it May first. See! I am willing to compromise