broken drive shaft
- Thread starter NM
- Start date
I
IEATSRT
Well-known member
I found this video yesterday and posted it over on Snow and Mud, guys got a kick out of it. Had 60 views yesterday and over a 1000 today, guy is probably wondering why he is so quickly becoming famous! Anyway it is good for a laugh... just trying to keep the air light. She did hold together on that shock load!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-FzBs65SMDI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-FzBs65SMDI
Hey guys, i am one who hopes this is not an issue with all sleds, this is my first year on a pro and i am a little nervous is all, i dont wanna be way out there somewhere and break the shaft. I'll never hear the end from my buddies since most them still riding cats. Jeff is a friend of mine and IMO does steller work, not brand specific work either. From what i was told when i spoke with him, is that he only made it 40+/- yards. on the ground. Water break dyno had no issues, but ground took it out. I dont wanna have to ride my back up sled this year waiting for a fix "if" this is a major issue. I wanna ride the new sled i bought for 12k+.
Is there no longer a 75 veiwing post limit for non-subscribers? Sweet!!
Hmm...I just checked dealer site..I can order 100 2012 driveshafts right now..shows available and in stock.................
1590486 101 ASM-DRVSHAFT TUB.SMOOTH 3S-8T Yes
1590486 101 ASM-DRVSHAFT TUB.SMOOTH 3S-8T Yes
Russia, Siberia, yesterday... 3 broken driveshafts in one day
At least one of them not far from the start point, other one deep in the mountain
Realbass knows better, he's been riding same place at the same time...
Well Ski Doo just began a recall on the 2013 summit. They imediatly stepped up. Its a big one. Dimmer swith hi/lo could fail...
G
geo
Well-known member
You have to think if a chassis dyno didn't cause a fail on a turbo but 40' in a stubble field did that the design is strong enough for the power applied but unable to handle side loads from the suspention.
Hopefully that turbo sled had a bad glue job form the beginning (but still sorry for the guys hassel).
Maybe adding tunnel strength to the glued shaft may be necessary. The clutch side floats.
Hopefully that turbo sled had a bad glue job form the beginning (but still sorry for the guys hassel).
Maybe adding tunnel strength to the glued shaft may be necessary. The clutch side floats.
Should no thave jumped ship then fellow nodak! Haha!
R
RKT
Well-known member
The Polaris shaft Is solid in the tunnel
IMO.. it is the chicken or the egg scenario... What fails first?? The Glue or the Shaft extrusion?
Here is the way it looks to me..
1) The shaft is mounted solid at each end within the tunnel. ANY lateral movement would and could only occur if the tunnel flexes via unwarranted stress (upward, downward, or angled force that allows the the tunnel to change from its 90 degree contact with the shaft.
2) Without #1 (above) happening, the end caps will remain "mated" in the extrusion and "happy"
3)IMO, #1 above is a very real possibility and ,IMO, happening. So, it is my opinion, that there is upward movement on the end pieces in the shaft..
So, what happens first?
a)Scenario #1 PROVIDING, the extrusion stays intact, the tunnel would have to seperate/flex OUTWARD by the distance of the end cap's insert in order for there to be complete seperation.. This, IMO, is VERY unlikely because this distance is too great and complete laterall only movement is a near impossibility. WHY? because each end is bound..
b)Scenario #2: The flex/movement of the end caps is NOT lateral but angular. So, the tunnel flexes (for whatever reason) and this puts an angular force on the end caps in the driveshaft.. Now, what happens?? IMO, this angular force will obviously try and "lift / co ck" the end caps and shaft.. when this occurs, the glue bond MAY or MAY NOT be broken. BUT.. the hex end caps are still being "held" in the extrusion (shaft) at 6 points (exactly like a socket on a bolt head) and if the glue remains in tact, at each sde as well.. So, in theory, there should be no problem with the end cap moving in the shaft.. and all is well..
c)Scenario #3: #2 happens.. The glue remains bonded. BUT.. the forces at play are too much for the thin walled shaft extrusion.. So, you have angular forces on "mated" pieces that are solid... BUT, these angular forces are TOO much for the extrustions outer wall and it fractures . This is what I think happens.
Once this fracture occurs, NOW, the end caps no longer need to only move laterally to seperate from the shaft. NOR are they being held at all 6 corners and possibly the flats.
So, the end cap can and will find a way to detach itself from the shaft... and after this happens.. we know the result.. Track is wadded up in the tunnel, driver takes a trip over the windshield.. NOT GOOD!
So, since it is my opinion that the WEAK extrusion and the fracturing of this weak extrusion is, in the end, the initial failure point, the device we have designed and produced will GREATLY strengthen the failure area of the extrusion's outer wall and HOPEFULLY, stop the complete failure..
IF the outer wall of the extrusion never fails and the glue holds there should be no failure.
If the outer wall of the extrusion never fails and the glue does NOT hold, then you are still holding the end caps at all 6 corners and it should not fail until you overcome the required twisting forces required to "strip" the inner side of the outer-wall.
Keep in mind, the GLUE is not the ONLY material that is holding the end cap in the shaft. The 6 points are also holding it in place,, just like a socket and a bolt.. No glue is required to remove a bolt using a socket..
IMO.. it is the chicken or the egg scenario... What fails first?? The Glue or the Shaft extrusion?
Here is the way it looks to me..
1) The shaft is mounted solid at each end within the tunnel. ANY lateral movement would and could only occur if the tunnel flexes via unwarranted stress (upward, downward, or angled force that allows the the tunnel to change from its 90 degree contact with the shaft.
2) Without #1 (above) happening, the end caps will remain "mated" in the extrusion and "happy"
3)IMO, #1 above is a very real possibility and ,IMO, happening. So, it is my opinion, that there is upward movement on the end pieces in the shaft..
So, what happens first?
a)Scenario #1 PROVIDING, the extrusion stays intact, the tunnel would have to seperate/flex OUTWARD by the distance of the end cap's insert in order for there to be complete seperation.. This, IMO, is VERY unlikely because this distance is too great and complete laterall only movement is a near impossibility. WHY? because each end is bound..
b)Scenario #2: The flex/movement of the end caps is NOT lateral but angular. So, the tunnel flexes (for whatever reason) and this puts an angular force on the end caps in the driveshaft.. Now, what happens?? IMO, this angular force will obviously try and "lift / co ck" the end caps and shaft.. when this occurs, the glue bond MAY or MAY NOT be broken. BUT.. the hex end caps are still being "held" in the extrusion (shaft) at 6 points (exactly like a socket on a bolt head) and if the glue remains in tact, at each sde as well.. So, in theory, there should be no problem with the end cap moving in the shaft.. and all is well..
c)Scenario #3: #2 happens.. The glue remains bonded. BUT.. the forces at play are too much for the thin walled shaft extrusion.. So, you have angular forces on "mated" pieces that are solid... BUT, these angular forces are TOO much for the extrustions outer wall and it fractures . This is what I think happens.
Once this fracture occurs, NOW, the end caps no longer need to only move laterally to seperate from the shaft. NOR are they being held at all 6 corners and possibly the flats.
So, the end cap can and will find a way to detach itself from the shaft... and after this happens.. we know the result.. Track is wadded up in the tunnel, driver takes a trip over the windshield.. NOT GOOD!
So, since it is my opinion that the WEAK extrusion and the fracturing of this weak extrusion is, in the end, the initial failure point, the device we have designed and produced will GREATLY strengthen the failure area of the extrusion's outer wall and HOPEFULLY, stop the complete failure..
IF the outer wall of the extrusion never fails and the glue holds there should be no failure.
If the outer wall of the extrusion never fails and the glue does NOT hold, then you are still holding the end caps at all 6 corners and it should not fail until you overcome the required twisting forces required to "strip" the inner side of the outer-wall.
Keep in mind, the GLUE is not the ONLY material that is holding the end cap in the shaft. The 6 points are also holding it in place,, just like a socket and a bolt.. No glue is required to remove a bolt using a socket..
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ok, I will present another scenario..and this is born out by the facts as seen in every picture of a broken shaft presented so far,,,,,
if the extrusion was weak, and failed first....the failure could be anywhere on the tube, every failure so far has been at the joint of the drive hub..so we know it is a joint related failure..next if the tube split and chunked out as the pictures all show they did, while the glue was still even partially glued, the oposite side of the tube that didnt chunk out would be bent in since the hub would have pulled the tube inward as the hub folded out the otherside, not one pic shows this, so the only plausable explanation is, the glue broke first, the hex design kept the hub from spinning inside the tube, which concentrated all the pressure of the engine drive and the track tension all on the very thin corners of the hex in the tube, which finally chunked out leading to failure.. and the pictures all confirm this.....
if the extrusion was weak, and failed first....the failure could be anywhere on the tube, every failure so far has been at the joint of the drive hub..so we know it is a joint related failure..next if the tube split and chunked out as the pictures all show they did, while the glue was still even partially glued, the oposite side of the tube that didnt chunk out would be bent in since the hub would have pulled the tube inward as the hub folded out the otherside, not one pic shows this, so the only plausable explanation is, the glue broke first, the hex design kept the hub from spinning inside the tube, which concentrated all the pressure of the engine drive and the track tension all on the very thin corners of the hex in the tube, which finally chunked out leading to failure.. and the pictures all confirm this.....
I wouldn't blame it on the glue , there's just to much flexing going on .
For now they've went beyond their abilities
Clutches would be a better example of flexing , no matter how good of a clutch alignment is there is no way that it's gonna always put even pressure on the belt , it will sooner or later try to twist .
Same thing is happening with the secondary belt , it is trying to twist under different conditions , no matter how strong it is
Don't believe me ?? Take that belt deflector off the upper sprocket and see what happens to the belt if you can make it threw a day . It's doing the same thing to that drive shaft and jackshaft .
For now they've went beyond their abilities
Clutches would be a better example of flexing , no matter how good of a clutch alignment is there is no way that it's gonna always put even pressure on the belt , it will sooner or later try to twist .
Same thing is happening with the secondary belt , it is trying to twist under different conditions , no matter how strong it is
Don't believe me ?? Take that belt deflector off the upper sprocket and see what happens to the belt if you can make it threw a day . It's doing the same thing to that drive shaft and jackshaft .
hawk, I agree, the drivetrain sees a ton of flexing..but if it wasnt a glue issue and was just to weak of metal...they would all fail....in the same short window..glue is the only plausable explanation..because its the one thing that can be variable without any easy way to verify without failure.
R
RKT
Well-known member
You do not need glue to turn a bolt with a 6 point socket.. The glue on this shaft is added strength (and it needs it)
IMO--> if there was no glue, AND there was NO "flex" then the 6 points of contact would hold the end caps in place on its own..
But, the reality is.. there is MAJOR flex and the flex is angular in direction.
This flex fractures the extrusion and THIS is what causes the total failure..
The pictures show this clearly..
Again.. you can turn a 1" bolt with a hex head 1" socket without slippage..
Angle the socket a tad and try again... what happens??? FAILURE.. it slips off the bolt head.. SAME with this shaft.. It is no different.. IMO, of course
R
RKT
Well-known member
IMO, they will all fail as soon as the loads and flex are enough to overcome the strength of the metal.. The ones tha have not failed , yet, have simply not had enough force to overcome the metal..
It is like towing a car with a rope or a chain.. At some point the rope will fail. It is not because the tow connection was not GOOD.. it is become you finally overcome the ability of the material to remain intact..
well, if the glue wasnt needed then why did polaris put it in there? and if it was a material thickness/strength issue then why hasent everyone of them failed? its an extruded shaft, meaning very very consistent..if there was inconsistencys in the tube, the failures wouldnt all be almost identical.....as for your socket analogy, yep your right ..the bolt cant spin in the socket..yep absolutely...but the bolt can slide right out of the socket..and is exactly what will happen when the tube gets clamped and the glue fails..the glue is the one constant when it fails..the shaft fails.
Tell you what kelsey, You can prove me wrong, on tape, and post here for all to see..take your 13 sled, put your clamp onit, take it out to the snowpark you ride at(bring a vid camera, and a small propane torch...turn the camera on(nice wide shot so the sled never leaves veiw) ride it around a bit, get on the gas a few times, then stop, roll it up on its side, light the torch and heat the shaft to 400 right at the hub joint(dont want to melt the material , just soften the glue), now flip it down and go ride.. if it is any issue other then glue..your clamp will have it fixed and you will be able to ride all over..if it is a glue issue..the shaft will fail as soon as you get on the gas.....Fair enough..your chance to prove I am wrong................
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