No Hawkster no... i hope you're not right about the jackshaft...
broken drive shaft
- Thread starter NM
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No Hawkster no... i hope you're not right about the jackshaft...
R
RKT
Well-known member
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IEATSRT
Well-known member
Here are a few pics of my shaft with 230 miles on sled. Loads of glue in there oozing out holes and seam, other ones I have seen that have failed don't appear to have near this amount of glue, if any glue at all. Why I think it is a manufacturing problem, some just weren't glued as well. If mine hasn't blown with what I've done with it for first 230 miles not sure what I would have to do to it to get it to fail. Glue is good and hard also. And hey, my belt is holding strong.... go figure.
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Turbo11T
Well-known member
Well guys I do not own a pro personally but my father in law does and I will likely take it out a few times so I watch this forum.
A couple of issues I have been worried about since day 1 of the my13 pro release. The drive belt. The carbon fiber spars, carbon fiber lower arms. Carbon fiber can be very good. But did they use the same carbon fiber that is on the rear bumper that is crap? Also after seeing the belt issues. There shouldn't be issues like this. Now seeing how the driveshaft is built it is absurd. The driveshaft takes a lot of stress. Rocks, constant changes in load and stress. My conclusion is that Polaris has gotten carried away trying to be the lightest that they have thrown out durability.
A couple of issues I have been worried about since day 1 of the my13 pro release. The drive belt. The carbon fiber spars, carbon fiber lower arms. Carbon fiber can be very good. But did they use the same carbon fiber that is on the rear bumper that is crap? Also after seeing the belt issues. There shouldn't be issues like this. Now seeing how the driveshaft is built it is absurd. The driveshaft takes a lot of stress. Rocks, constant changes in load and stress. My conclusion is that Polaris has gotten carried away trying to be the lightest that they have thrown out durability.
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paulharris
Well-known member
I don't see any glue on the spun drive shaft RKTek posted, whereas the shaft above has obvious excess glue residue.
Seems like the "fix" is to check and make sure the shaft is glued, or try and spin it on purpose in the dealer parking lot
there is glue on the last pic. you can see it on the piece that is torn off to the side. there is a "channel" in the insert that gives a place for the glue to spread and you can see it there on the mating piece
Polaris needs to recall these now rather than wait IMO before someone gets killed because of it. if they have not failed yet eventually they will with increased mileage and stressing and fatigue of that glued joint
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RKT
Well-known member
I agree.... there exists a high potential for severe injury... Imagine dropping a cornice and landing and having your shaft fall out..
OR
Doing the latest tree riding and having this happen and getting thrown head 1st into a tree...Not a good outcome..
If you are 19 you may get up and laugh afterwards.. If you are in your 40's... not likely..
That trip over the bars never feels good no matter how old you are...
IMO, there is a big risk for injury... I, for one, am not willing to take that risk... so, we are doing what we can to avoid it...
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S
suitcase
Well-known member
for some reason His picks did not come with quote!
So here is a Pro with 230 miles on it, if this is a enginering flaw this would not be possible!
Just saying.
Im starting to lean towards improper assembly!!
Just saying!
Im still bying RKT kit! LOL
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I
IEATSRT
Well-known member
My thoughts exactly. Mine is holding just fine, as have many others. If it is going to fail it will fail early. I rode pretty hard for first hundred miles watching rpm to break in engine and belt. But hit full throttle lots, not for any lenght of time. Was over revving as clutched for 6-8, so after first hundred miles swapped weights to 10-66 and have taped the thing since. Rode this thing hard, donuts down until dirt was flying. As for those who think the aluminum is too thin... your forgetting that when the bonded to the steel shaft properly it works with the steel. The strength of the bonded unit is stronger than either the aluminum or the steel alone. But the key is... needs to be bonded properly. If not bonded properly then yes the steel will work against the aliminum and the aluminum will fail. As for the fixes your hearing about that is good piece of mind. I'm not doing it. Have a good look at your shaft... looks like there is lots of glue? Glue seems hard? Go ride the thing.
Your glued together day is coming!. Dosnt that make you feel good!
ttt
Lord's adhesive, the rumored bonding agent of choice for the driveshafts, apparently has a 50 psi handling shear strength that may occur at between 1 and 2 hours. Lord's does not appear to list the 7 day strength, ultimate strength, yield strength or any other properties that can be used to evaluate the suitability of this product for the polaris driveshaft situaton.
The driveshaft has stress reversals occurring at the bonded joint from the upward drive belt tension, and also from the rearward track tension. Steel requires working strength to be about 10x the stress reversal forces, in order to have been properly designed. I estimate the drive belt tension causes about + or -3000 psi shear on the bonded joint. I estimate the track tension causes a + or -500 psi shear on the bonded joint. The same bonded joint also has engine torque caused shear of about 250 psi, that acts at right angles to the belt and track tension caused shear. Given the mysteriousness of the industrial grade Lord's adhesive, it does not appear at this time, that their products has either the short or long term strength to hold up to normal snowmobile operating conditions. Once the adhesive bond fails, then the belt tension tends to pry the steel insert out of the aluminum center driveshaft section, since there is no mechanical backup like a continuous steel driveshaft.
The driveshaft has stress reversals occurring at the bonded joint from the upward drive belt tension, and also from the rearward track tension. Steel requires working strength to be about 10x the stress reversal forces, in order to have been properly designed. I estimate the drive belt tension causes about + or -3000 psi shear on the bonded joint. I estimate the track tension causes a + or -500 psi shear on the bonded joint. The same bonded joint also has engine torque caused shear of about 250 psi, that acts at right angles to the belt and track tension caused shear. Given the mysteriousness of the industrial grade Lord's adhesive, it does not appear at this time, that their products has either the short or long term strength to hold up to normal snowmobile operating conditions. Once the adhesive bond fails, then the belt tension tends to pry the steel insert out of the aluminum center driveshaft section, since there is no mechanical backup like a continuous steel driveshaft.
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Going West
Well-known member
If this is just a matter of the glue being unable to hold the shaft together, then why do some sleds break in mins, one even before it left the dealership and others have lasted for over 700 miles already.
The only logical explanations is that there is some defect in the shafts that are failing. Which would point to a production issue not a engineering issue, which is more likely show its self after some actual miles have accumulated.
The only logical explanations is that there is some defect in the shafts that are failing. Which would point to a production issue not a engineering issue, which is more likely show its self after some actual miles have accumulated.
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IEATSRT
Well-known member
I am not trying to be rude here.. but you have got to be kidding me?? I think quite possibly your theory is the furtherst from what is actually going on I have read yet, again not being rude. According to your numbers not ONE shaft should even make it past a quarter throttle without grenading. I guess mine with 230 miles and others with 700 miles is a gift from the "Lord" himself and his mircales at work! On SOME shafts...inadequate bonding from either lack of glue or failure of glue to set up or a combination of both -> play in the joint-> steel insert tearing up or stripping out aluminum, NOT belt tension prying insert out.
150 miles on my 13 and no issues yet 
no issues
I don't know but probley most of the problems with 13's is people are unloading sled & down the trail as fast as they can go. no pre warm up like the manuel says. In fact I wonder how many read the manual? just my .02
as soon as we get some snow in Idaho (Mc Call) I'll go by the book to see if it helps. or matters.
But how are you rideing it? like the manual says? 50% throttle?150 miles on my 13 and no issues yet
I don't know but probley most of the problems with 13's is people are unloading sled & down the trail as fast as they can go. no pre warm up like the manuel says. In fact I wonder how many read the manual? just my .02
as soon as we get some snow in Idaho (Mc Call) I'll go by the book to see if it helps. or matters.
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sledneck_03
Well-known member
LORD® 201 acrylic adhesive when cured with LORD Accelerator 4, 17 or 19 creates an adhesive system that will bond a wide variety of prepared or unprepared metals and plastics. LORD 201 acrylic adhesive in combination with the recommended accelerator replaces welding, brazing, riveting and other mechanical fastening methods.
LORD 201 acrylic adhesive can be cured with either LORD Accelerator 4, LORD Accelerator 17 or LORD Accelerator 19. LORD Accelerator 4 is a no-mix accelerator applied to the substrate before the acrylic adhesive. LORD Accelerators 17 and 19 must be mixed into the acrylic adhesive prior to application. LORD Accelerator 19 is available in off-white or black.
Shelf Life
Shelf life is six months when stored at temperatures under 80°F (27°C) in original, unopened container. For maximum shelf life, storage temperatures of 40-50°F (4-10°C) are recommended. If stored at these cooler temperatures, allow product to return to room temperature before using.
Features and Benefits
• Versatile - bonds a wide variety of substrates such as metals, ceramics and plastics; insensitive to minor deviations from correct mix ratio.
• Bonds Unprepared Metals - requires little or no substrate preparation.
• Self-Leveling - flows into hard-to-reach places and is excellent for bonding irregular shapes.
• Environmentally Resistant - resists dilute acids, alkalis, solvents, greases, oils and moisture; provides excellent resistance to UV exposure, salt spray and weathering.
• Temperature Resistant - performs at temperatures from -40 to +300°F (-40 to +149°C).
this looks to be their most basic metal to metal bonding adhesive...... No word on shear stress. If i could find out exactly what it is and compare it to the shear stress of a weld in its place if it was aluminum to aluminum or steel to steel.
Im thinking that the driveshafts that failed had the same issues that a arms that didnt pass and they did a recall on. Thinking they were not cured properly
the thing is there is nothing wrong with adhesive as long as it can take the forces that are applied to it, generally there is a safety factor, for instance rigging must have a 10 time saftey factor for lifting personnel. Improper welds crack, and too small or improper torqued bolts break, there is torque specifications there is turn of the nut methods as per can/csa standards..... the way it goes.
LORD 201 acrylic adhesive can be cured with either LORD Accelerator 4, LORD Accelerator 17 or LORD Accelerator 19. LORD Accelerator 4 is a no-mix accelerator applied to the substrate before the acrylic adhesive. LORD Accelerators 17 and 19 must be mixed into the acrylic adhesive prior to application. LORD Accelerator 19 is available in off-white or black.
Shelf Life
Shelf life is six months when stored at temperatures under 80°F (27°C) in original, unopened container. For maximum shelf life, storage temperatures of 40-50°F (4-10°C) are recommended. If stored at these cooler temperatures, allow product to return to room temperature before using.
Features and Benefits
• Versatile - bonds a wide variety of substrates such as metals, ceramics and plastics; insensitive to minor deviations from correct mix ratio.
• Bonds Unprepared Metals - requires little or no substrate preparation.
• Self-Leveling - flows into hard-to-reach places and is excellent for bonding irregular shapes.
• Environmentally Resistant - resists dilute acids, alkalis, solvents, greases, oils and moisture; provides excellent resistance to UV exposure, salt spray and weathering.
• Temperature Resistant - performs at temperatures from -40 to +300°F (-40 to +149°C).
this looks to be their most basic metal to metal bonding adhesive...... No word on shear stress. If i could find out exactly what it is and compare it to the shear stress of a weld in its place if it was aluminum to aluminum or steel to steel.
Im thinking that the driveshafts that failed had the same issues that a arms that didnt pass and they did a recall on. Thinking they were not cured properly
the thing is there is nothing wrong with adhesive as long as it can take the forces that are applied to it, generally there is a safety factor, for instance rigging must have a 10 time saftey factor for lifting personnel. Improper welds crack, and too small or improper torqued bolts break, there is torque specifications there is turn of the nut methods as per can/csa standards..... the way it goes.
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The best structural epoxies used in construction are rated at 1500 to 2000 psi shear. Allowing for hundreds of thousands of stress reversals due to the rotating driveshaft, they then could be good for only 150 to 200 psi shear strength. Comparing this number to the numbers above, and you can see that the acrylic bonded driveshaft joint design, has a significant flaw coming out of the starting gate. The bonding glue appears to be totally inadequate for cyclical loads that are inherant to a special driveshaft, that is also expected to stabilize the belt drive wheel, as well as provide tension in the track.
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