550 fan Jetting and burn-down issues....

[Tom400CFI]

As it has been explained to me the oil is boiling in the pump

I don't buy it. That's what our local dealer told us a couple years ago. We took a machine up on the hill on a 60*F day, no ducting, box stock, and ran it a 10-15 mph, then popped the hood and shot the pump w/a Laser/temp gun. Result? ~190*F. What temp does oil "boil" at? CAN oil even boil? The oil in my Corvette gets up to 300*F on a track day. No "boiling" there...

On any newer sleds you might get polaris to step up and give you the parts it is worth asking.

Tried already. Dealer and regional rep happily recommended that we BUY all the "kits". For 40 sleds. Not happening.

Richardsb014: We haven't relocated pumps, but some (later) machines have the pumps relocated already. Doesn't seem to make a diff.

Penguinpoo: Thanks for the data.

Frostbit: Good luck man! I feel your pain!

Ivar: Agreed on the fuel. Something HAS to have changed. Our vendor claims nothing has...but they also supply our diesel, which gelled this year for the first time ever. They claim nothing has changed in the diesel too. Yeah, right.

Break in? We've tried breaking them in first, ourselves and then handing them back to the staff. Doesn't seem to help. The last "SPI/test" sled went 177 miles, then broke a skirt.

We've replaced ALL the Nic cylinders w/lined cylinders at this point.

All the SPI pistons come w/a thermal barrier top, and friction reducing coating on the side...which only seems to last a few miles.

Gogglefurnace: none of our sleds have ACCS. Our '99 did when we got it (Trail RMK) but we did away w/that and re-jetted right away. We've settled on 240-250 mains now, on all the machines, per wash, EGT's and WB02 inputs.

 

[Tom400CFI]

Here are a few more pics for S&G's
First pic, titled FUN WITH PISTONS!

Next pic is two SPI pistons....JUST about to "loose their skirts". These have less than 500 miles on them. Notice the coatings are gone...

And this one is just for laughs. Here is my question; How did this thing keep running?? This is the "pulse side". How did the FP keep pumping? This is another set of SPI pistons. Notice the (lack of) coating on the one "good" piston? This is nice stuff though....

 

[Frostbit]

Jeezus, Tom, those are some pistons. I would keep them all and put them away in a box, along with your unusable cylinders. They would make a good going away present for the Polaris 550 motor director who works at Polaris.

For the prior guy who wanted to know, the Polaris part number for the 550 engine Oil Pump Return (bleed/vent) Kit is: 2203889

By the way, if you order a cool air ducting kit, it comes with one of the above. It comes with a molded plastic housing that bolts over the recoil housing (its a pita to put on, mine did not line up with the holes and I had to take a file to it), new mounting bolts, the oil pump kit, a heat shield for the y-pipe, and a new fuel pump bracket to mount to cooling duct. It also comes with 4 louvered vents, one for each side of the belly pan to evacuate hot air, one to place in the nose just under the bumper to direct cool air into the engine compartment, and 1 to mount on the cowl below the headlamp. This one lines up with the motors cooling duct intake. There is also a screen to go over the front louver, inside the pan, rivets, etc. There are instructions, but my kit did not include the template to cut the holes in either the pan or the hood. I had to copy a sled on my dealers floor. Polaris is basically trying to get the engine outside air for cooling, as well as evacuate hot air generated by the exhaust system from the engine compartment.

Personally, I think Polaris should provide all of this stuff to any registered owner who wants it. I've got many hours of labor putting my stuff on, including the cylinders, pistons, etc, but I'm a mechanic by trade and my dealer knows what I can do. The average Joe is SOL, and labor to do the engine would be big $$$.

For the life of me, I can't fathom why Polaris has not worked with Fuji to come up with another fan motor. This one has been plagued with piston and cylinder problems for going on 10 years, since the 488 was dropped. There IS a viable market for fan-cooled sleds--at least here in the Bush. Polaris MUST get one that works with some reliability. The Cat 570 and Doo 550 don't have a fraction of the motor problems....I have friends with both, two Cats with over 7000 miles and the engines have not been apart, once. Its quite sad amongst our group when a guys says "my motor went down this weekend", and right away, someone else says "you must have a Polaris 550".

 

[Tom400CFI]

I agree w/all of the above! Great post.

Jeezus, Tom, those are some pistons. I would keep them all and put them away in a box, along with your unusable cylinders. They would make a good going away present for the Polaris 550 motor director who works at Polaris.

And those pistons only represent the last week's worth of work! This BFS has been going on all season!!!

Good idea on the "gift box". I like it.

BTW, when I started this thread (1/11) one of our "initiatives" was to drop off one machine at the local dealer (the one w/the Oil temps/flash point/boiling stories) and have them build it the POLARIS WAY, then give us a "build sheet" w/all specs and set up data....then see how long it lasts. They still haven't given it back to us, b/c they can't "get it to run right". Lol.

 

[ivar]

Tom, you need to make your own display:
"Offerings to the bean counters at Polaris"

Below, from the amazing movie "The worlds fastest Indian"

 

[Tom400CFI]

Tom, you need to make your own display:
"Offerings to the bean counters at Polaris"

Below, from the amazing movie "The worlds fastest Indian"

AWESOME movie, IMO. And an amazing guy. Good pic! I dig it!

 

[gogglefurnace]

Well i got to thinking. so i went out and looked at my sleds. both the 05 and 08 (trail rmks) have some cooling features installed. they have a louvered vent on either side of the belly pan, one in the front bellypan, insulated y-pipe, shielded front half of exhaust pipe and a shield between the recoil housing and the can. the only diff between the two is the 05 fuel pump is between the oil tank and steering column, mounted on the oil tank, and the 08 fuel pump is on a little plate on the rear of the engine, recoil side, up high, just in front of the oil tank. so it looks to me that the trail rmk has some extra cooling features built in. like i said mine have been flawless performers up to now. it sounds like the cooling kits you can get now which have even more features, is a corporate response to a huge F.U.. the loss of business they will encounter will far out weigh the cost of free upgrade kits. and these kits might only fix part of the issues, but a little good will goes a long way. if i was polaris i would bite the bullet and protect my customer base and then rip the crap out of fuji

 

[mccbry]

Fuji's industrial products division, began manufacturing "Star" engines for Polaris Industries snowmobiles in 1968 but the cooperation ended in 1998 when Polaris Industries started to build their own brand new Liberty two-stroke engines, but Fuji remains a Polaris supplier of pistons to this day. Fuji is a partner with Polaris, owning a percentage of Polaris stock. Fuji has provided more than 2 million engines used in Polaris snowmobiles, ATVs, watercraft and utility vehicles. [4] Also most japanese company's have out sourced thier parts manufactuer to other countries such as china and s.africa and quality control is not as good. my .02

 

[Frostbit]

Fuji's industrial products division, began manufacturing "Star" engines for Polaris Industries snowmobiles in 1968 but the cooperation ended in 1998 when Polaris Industries started to build their own brand new Liberty two-stroke engines, but Fuji remains a Polaris supplier of pistons to this day. Fuji is a partner with Polaris, owning a percentage of Polaris stock. Fuji has provided more than 2 million engines used in Polaris snowmobiles, ATVs, watercraft and utility vehicles. [4] Also most japanese company's have out sourced thier parts manufactuer to other countries such as china and s.africa and quality control is not as good. my .02

Only partially correct.
Polaris continues to use the Fuji-built 550 fan engine in big numbers, and you evidently forgot the Fuji 500 liquid twin, which still is used in the Widetrack utility sled. Bottom line is, Fuji or Liberty, this particular engine is signed off by Polaris brass as fit for use in their snowmobile line. There has to be a whole lot of input from Polaris to Fuji, I assume vice-versa, on this engine, no different than the Weber-built four stroke in the FST. Polaris is very aware of the ongoing cylinder/piston failure problem with the 550: Just look how many updates over the years have been done to the basic engine. My point is, they still don't have it rectified, worse, they have untold thousands of these motors out there in various models and the consumer is stuck with it as is. Polaris needs to pony up something to appease a slew of disgruntled 550 owners. You read of several in this thread, Tom's on a large scale. Imagine how many singular owners are out there that have lost pistons, chalked it up to bad gas, water, etc, and are unaware just how widespread this really is. I have personally spoke with a Polaris regional dealer representative; someone most customers never get a chance to see. Trust me, HE knows, Polaris knows, and he did not have to hear it from me. He already has been hearing it for years.

 

[Frostbit]

Here's something else to ponder.

If you buy a new Polaris this year equipped with the 800 motor, the motor, not the sled, comes with a three (3) year warranty. If you buy the same sled with a 600 motor, you get one (1) year engine warranty. Why? Is it because Polaris thinks the 800 is bulletproof and they won't have many warranty claims? I then direct you to the Forums main page, Polaris, and read how many posts are there with 800 Polaris engine problems. Hmmm.

Now, if this 550 engine was a Polaris favorite, how come they won't offer it with the same three (3) year warranty?

I know of no other snowmobile manufacturer, heck, any motorized vehicle manufacturer, that gives you three times more warranty on ENGINE ONLY, but only on ONE SPECIFIC ENGINE SIZE.

If I decide to buy a new Chevy pickup, does GM differentiate the warranty life dependent on what engine I choose? Does a V6 come with 8 years and a V8 only 5? I think not.

Come on Polaris, give me a three year engine warranty on any new 550 I might be considering purchasing.

I'm not holding my breath.

 

[ivar]

Not familiar with the Cat / Doo fanners, but didn't the older 488 fan (along with sleds like the Phaser) draw in cooling air on the PTO side then blowing it out on the MAG side? I recall my feet always was warm (especially my right foot) when riding those sleds.

 

[theultrarider]

NOpe. Think about it, the recoil is on the right. That is your fan pushing the air across the motor to the pto side. Your right foot was warm cuz the muffler is on that side.

 

[gogglefurnace]

thats why on a lotta fans with dual carbs the pto side is jetted richer. the deal is evacuation of underhood heat and bringing outside air in to keep a fan cool properly. i wonder what is the industry standard or threshold for air temp as it enters the engine. you would think there would be specs on this. of course if there are, and polaris ignored them or just kept their fingers crossed then they are liable. there should be a recall. i love fans, it pi$$es me off and i'm not broke down (yet)

 

[ivar]

i wonder what is the industry standard or threshold for air temp as it enters the engine. you would think there would be specs on this. of course if there are, and polaris ignored them or just kept their fingers crossed then they are liable. there should be a recall.

After 20+(?) years of building close to bullet-proof 440/488 fanners, one would think Polaris knew exactly what and whatnot.

Maybe they just figured they "lost money making sleds thats lasts too long, lets build some disposable crap instead?"

 

[Tom400CFI]

polaris ignored them or just kept their fingers crossed then they are liable. there should be a recall.

I agree.


And good posts by Frostbit! Well said!

There's more "evidence" than on jsut this thread alone, BTW. I've gotten PM's from people, and of course there are other forums...and then there are all the people who are "dealing with it" but never go on forums. Polaris should "man-up" and fix this situation.

 

[Lovesnow]

Another thing to ponder is the 550 RMK's use to come with altitude compensators. In 08 Polaris went back to jetting yourself for different elevations and temps. I wonder if that had something to do with all the melt down problems? After having many 500 cc Fuji, bullet proof engines, I can't believe Polaris and Fuji have gone this many years with such a piece of s##t motor. I would not be able to sleep at night or face people in public if I had anything to do with this product. And for dam sure do something to give my customers some help with the known problem, not keep putting the same old piece of crap out there, year after year, thinking people will forget about it. But then maybe I am a perfect example of a usetobe loyal customer. I had an 05 with 1,000 miles lock up and turned around and bought a new 08 550 RMK. Am I showing my intelegence or what????????

 

[richardsb014]

Lovesnow,
My daughters 04 550 Fan has the altitude compensator, and the PTO side has burned down twice in about 600 miles. The sled was well within the altitude and temperate for the jetting. I haven’t done even remotely the same amount of investigation as Tom has, so don’t know exactly what may be leading to my problems. I do suspect overheating is the cause based on what Tom uncovered

What I do know is the reputable Polaris parts person I’m using got no information from Polaris on what mods I need to do to the 04 to lessen the chance of a burn down. He emailed Polaris 2 days ago asking what we could do. Polaris told him the vent kit Tom discusses throughout this tread (hood louvers, ducting, oil vent kit, fuel pump relocation brackets, etc), were for the 07/08 models, and the “experts” didn’t know if it would fit my 04. The only thing Polaris has done that may help my issue is release a Snow Tips memo in Sept 04 enlarging the cylinder to piston clearance during rebuild. So I’m left purchasing a vent kit that I don’t know will fit, to try and address an issue I suspect the manufacture knows about.

 

[Tom400CFI]

Man...that's a pretty crappy story. Sorry to hear about your issues and I wish I could give more "solid" help here.

Lovesnow,
My daughters 04 550 Fan has the altitude compensator, and the PTO side has burned down twice in about 600 miles.

Strange. Out of all the 550 powered sleds we've bought since 1999, only the '99 TRAIL RMK's ever came to us, with ACCS. NONE of our Trail 550's did.

 

[richardsb014]

Tom,
I suspect you gave me extremely solid data with all your testing, and I'm very appreciative. If not for you, I would likely already have the motor together with about .39" clearance and a lot of doubt in my mind, and probably a sieze ready to happen at any time. As it is, I'm waiting on a $200 kit that, because of Polaris, I don't know will fit my sled. I do feel comfortable that part of the kit will fit, and reduce the likely hood of another failer...the oil pump vent mod (again, thanks to your investigation)

It would just be sweet if the manufacture owned up to the issue, tested the sleds in question, and released the exact fixes that fit each sled. We are left out here with a condition that is known, and feel cheated because the company that was quick to take our money on the sled isn't the same with manufacturing defects.

From the primary on, this is a nice sled for my girls. I can't sell it as is and sleep well, so with your data hopefully I can get a few good years out of it.

Well, enough beating the heck out of this dead horse. We ain't getting help, so all we can do is vote with our money next time.

Thanks for you help,
Bart

 

[Frostbit]

Tom,
I suspect you gave me extremely solid data with all your testing, and I'm very appreciative. If not for you, I would likely already have the motor together with about .39" clearance and a lot of doubt in my mind, and probably a sieze ready to happen at any time. As it is, I'm waiting on a $200 kit that, because of Polaris, I don't know will fit my sled. I do feel comfortable that part of the kit will fit, and reduce the likely hood of another failer...the oil pump vent mod (again, thanks to your investigation)

It would just be sweet if the manufacture owned up to the issue, tested the sleds in question, and released the exact fixes that fit each sled. We are left out here with a condition that is known, and feel cheated because the company that was quick to take our money on the sled isn't the same with manufacturing defects.

From the primary on, this is a nice sled for my girls. I can't sell it as is and sleep well, so with your data hopefully I can get a few good years out of it.

Well, enough beating the heck out of this dead horse. We ain't getting help, so all we can do is vote with our money next time.

Thanks for you help,
Bart

If you have a conventional Edge, the kit will fit. The shroud kit will fit any of the 550 motors, the vents and instructions are for an Edge. If you're doing it yourself, just pm me if you have questions. I just did mine.