Tom, did you have any cylinder head temp. gauges on any sleds that burned a piston? Do you think they would help spot a melt-down before it happened completely? I'm thinking about getting the CHT sensors that go under the spark plug.
550 fan Jetting and burn-down issues....
- Thread starter Tom400CFI
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gogglefurnace
Member
here's some pics from my 05' trail rmk. it seems like pretty good underhood heat management to me. so far so good.
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Tom400CFI
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Interesting. Like the pics in the post above? SOME of our machines have insulation on the pipe, most don't. ONE of our sleds has the "rental" ducting kit. The old GEN II's w/the 550's have insulated pipes, and heat shields....even though the pipe and muffler are smaller, and further away from the fan-intake then on EDGE 550 units! (?) Not to much consistancy from the factory, and not too much common sense, either.
CJGauthier; we have not done a good or thorough testing of head temps....yet. It's on the list, more for data gathering/reference than anything at this point. It seems the richer jetting/larger clearances/CAI ducting might be the "package" we need. All the "test units" that use this combo are still running great to date. The CAI might not be necessary w/the larger clearances, b/c we have one large clearance/no CAI sled out there too, running fine so far.
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gogglefurnace
Member
tom, i called a dealer in eastern id who sells a crapload of sleds and talked to the service manager. he could not give me any solid answers as to the shielding. i asked him if it was model specific, area specific or year specific. all he could tell me was "who knows". i told him it was edge specific and he said "huh". he did however think that all the trail rmks had this shielding.
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gogglefurnace
Member
tom, after my last post i called the dealer again and got better answers because he had time to check. he said it was on the early edge fans, all models, that did not have the shielding. i believe edge came out in 03 and my 05 has the shields. maybe this will help. i'll bet it was a corporate cost cut or some bonehead engineer decided it wasn,t needed with the edge hood. either way you paid for it. i will do some temp test on mine sometime and compare. time for a beer.
My girl friends 2000 550 just burned down. not good
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Tom400CFI
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^Your sled is a different chassis and should have the heat issues that the Edge chassis has.
UPDATE:
*ALL of the .007" clearance/Wiseco motors are still running fine. The first .007" SPI motor cracked a skirt and seized yesterday after noon. So it appears that .007" w/the CAST piston is too much for the skirt to deal with....yet, less than that results in a seizure. We are done with SPI cast pistons.
*Also, to test the "air in oil pump" urban legend, we installed the "bleeder kit" on one sled, let the bleeder hose fill w/oil, then pinced the bleeder hose and ran the sled. In two days, we checked that hose for and air bubble, and found....an air bubble. That "urban legend" is....TRUE! I can't believe it, but it seems to be true. You apparently gotta have the bleeder kit on this sled.
Why? It's the same Mikuni pump that Polaris, Arctic cat, Ski doo, and Yammi have used for decades...isn't it? HOW TF DOES AIR GET INTO THE GD OIL IN A GRAVITY FED PUMP????
This sht pisses me off to no end. It's GD unacceptable. How does air get in the oil pump? Answer: it gets sucked in from a seal or gasket...right?
UPDATE:
*ALL of the .007" clearance/Wiseco motors are still running fine. The first .007" SPI motor cracked a skirt and seized yesterday after noon. So it appears that .007" w/the CAST piston is too much for the skirt to deal with....yet, less than that results in a seizure. We are done with SPI cast pistons.
*Also, to test the "air in oil pump" urban legend, we installed the "bleeder kit" on one sled, let the bleeder hose fill w/oil, then pinced the bleeder hose and ran the sled. In two days, we checked that hose for and air bubble, and found....an air bubble. That "urban legend" is....TRUE! I can't believe it, but it seems to be true. You apparently gotta have the bleeder kit on this sled.
Why? It's the same Mikuni pump that Polaris, Arctic cat, Ski doo, and Yammi have used for decades...isn't it? HOW TF DOES AIR GET INTO THE GD OIL IN A GRAVITY FED PUMP????
This sht pisses me off to no end. It's GD unacceptable. How does air get in the oil pump? Answer: it gets sucked in from a seal or gasket...right?
I guess I am not as full of $hit as I thought, LOL. I am not sure how the bubble is getting in the oil system but this is what Polaris told us.
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Tom400CFI
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I guess not. PLEASE note that I never said you were FOS....I simply wanted an explaination as to how air "appears" in an oil saturated, gravity fed environment. I still do...
I'm so mad at these sleds right now...and even more so at Poo for ignoring, denying, making excuses/stories...basically not "manning up" to the problems they've handily engineered into these particular sleds. Poor, poor service.
They should be handing out bleeder kits, ducting kits, and piston kits. Instead, they make you buy sht to fix their engineering epic failures.
I'm so mad at these sleds right now...and even more so at Poo for ignoring, denying, making excuses/stories...basically not "manning up" to the problems they've handily engineered into these particular sleds. Poor, poor service.
They should be handing out bleeder kits, ducting kits, and piston kits. Instead, they make you buy sht to fix their engineering epic failures.
Wow!
I've read this thread as I too have a 2004 550 Touring that crapped out on me. I'm bringing it in to have it checked this weekend for the problem(s).
Tom you have put a lot of effort into perfecting this that Polaris should pay you. They're probably lurking on here now to see what you're doing. It's obvious the scope of this problem is now out of hand Polaris can't and won't approve of a recall. It would cost them millions. Then the exec's and employees of the company can't get their profit sharing!! Can't have that...
I can't tell you how many people on threads on different websites I belong to have this same issue.
I would agree that if I can't get some assistance from Polaris on this, I'm switching brands. I've been loyal to Polaris for 20 years now. This is the biggest debacle and lie this company has ever produced. Much bigger than the 900 Fusion issues.
I've read this thread as I too have a 2004 550 Touring that crapped out on me. I'm bringing it in to have it checked this weekend for the problem(s).
Tom you have put a lot of effort into perfecting this that Polaris should pay you. They're probably lurking on here now to see what you're doing. It's obvious the scope of this problem is now out of hand Polaris can't and won't approve of a recall. It would cost them millions. Then the exec's and employees of the company can't get their profit sharing!! Can't have that...
I can't tell you how many people on threads on different websites I belong to have this same issue.
I would agree that if I can't get some assistance from Polaris on this, I'm switching brands. I've been loyal to Polaris for 20 years now. This is the biggest debacle and lie this company has ever produced. Much bigger than the 900 Fusion issues.
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Tom400CFI
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I AGREE!! I've been riding Polaris since 1991 and been an avid fan. Now I feel ****ked. Times 40, since that's how many of these failmobiles we are unfortunate enough to own.
My ONLY goal, is to get some semblence of "reasonable engine life" out of these things...until I can trade them in.
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Tom400CFI
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Are they giving this stuff to us??? (They should).
IF not, what am I getting for my money? What is the "cylinder upgrade"? Because the first year of NIC cylinders ('07) we had more sleds go down, faster, then ever before.
What claim does Poo make (if any) about those parts and what they'll do? What set up specs do they offer? What does one do when you seize a Nic bore? You can't bore it, and Poo doesn't sell over sized pistons.
Approach with caution!!
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richardsb014
New member
Tom,
Having just read through this thread, and looking at the photos, I gather the majority of your burn downs are on the mag side? I find this interesting since the air that crosses the mag side cylinder is cooler (not as hot may be a better term) then it is when it gets to the PTO side.
My daughters 04 trail burned down the PTO side this weekend, doing the same thing she always did at the same altitude and basically same ambient temp. Just putting around between 15 and 25 MPH.
I rebuilt the motor about 600 miles ago because the PTO side piston skirts disintegrated. I thought maybe material failure at that time, replaced the PTO side jug, and put in SPI pistons. All was well until Saturday.
FYI, PTO side has 260 main, and mag side has 250. We ride from 8000 to 10000 feet. I gather I need to look into the vent hose for the oil line, some under hood venting, and even larger mains.
I’m going with Wisco .020 over. I guess we will also look at a .005 clearance?
Damn, I thought this was a proven performer…
Bart
Having just read through this thread, and looking at the photos, I gather the majority of your burn downs are on the mag side? I find this interesting since the air that crosses the mag side cylinder is cooler (not as hot may be a better term) then it is when it gets to the PTO side.
My daughters 04 trail burned down the PTO side this weekend, doing the same thing she always did at the same altitude and basically same ambient temp. Just putting around between 15 and 25 MPH.
I rebuilt the motor about 600 miles ago because the PTO side piston skirts disintegrated. I thought maybe material failure at that time, replaced the PTO side jug, and put in SPI pistons. All was well until Saturday.
FYI, PTO side has 260 main, and mag side has 250. We ride from 8000 to 10000 feet. I gather I need to look into the vent hose for the oil line, some under hood venting, and even larger mains.
I’m going with Wisco .020 over. I guess we will also look at a .005 clearance?
Damn, I thought this was a proven performer…
Bart
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Tom400CFI
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Hey Bart
We've seen about 50/50 PTO/Mag failures. The pics you've seen only represent about 5% of the total failure (and work) that we've seen this year. (!)
If you use the Wiseco's (which at this point, I recommend), I would absolutely also recommend using at least .007" clearance. We already put together one Wiseco "test" motor at .0045" clearance and it only ran for about 5 minutes under load, before having a very minor seizure, that looked like a "cold seize"...even though it wasn't cold. For us, they seem to be liking .007" or more.
We've seen about 50/50 PTO/Mag failures. The pics you've seen only represent about 5% of the total failure (and work) that we've seen this year. (!)
If you use the Wiseco's (which at this point, I recommend), I would absolutely also recommend using at least .007" clearance. We already put together one Wiseco "test" motor at .0045" clearance and it only ran for about 5 minutes under load, before having a very minor seizure, that looked like a "cold seize"...even though it wasn't cold. For us, they seem to be liking .007" or more.
Me too. That's why I bought 'em and (originally) advocated for them and the brand, for our resort. Mistake noted, lesson learned.
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Tom,
I recall you had a thread about the declining durability of the Polaris fanners a couple years ago...?
Was going to ask you what support you've got from Polaris and your dealer, but sounds like they're just telling you to go f&ck yourself...?
No wonder that you're furious, if it was me I would contact the Better business bureau etc + look for a good "consumer case" lawyer...
My girl friends 550 burn down on the mag side with the iron sleeves. What clearance should I be runing? Should I go with wisco over stock poo? Where does this oil vent tube hook up to and where does it go? Anyone have a pic?
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OIL Pump Question
Anyone have an idea about how much oil the pump should be pumping? When I grab the arm with a hook and pull it all the way the oil line I drained pumps up quickly but in a pulsing action. It pulses up the tube to the carb. about 1/2" to 1" at a time. My question really is, if I disconnect an oil line to the carb. how much oil at idle or at an rpm below clutch engagement should com out? My manual refers to pulling and checking banjo valves on some sleds but I don't see them on the 550 / vm34 carbs.
Anyone have an idea about how much oil the pump should be pumping? When I grab the arm with a hook and pull it all the way the oil line I drained pumps up quickly but in a pulsing action. It pulses up the tube to the carb. about 1/2" to 1" at a time. My question really is, if I disconnect an oil line to the carb. how much oil at idle or at an rpm below clutch engagement should com out? My manual refers to pulling and checking banjo valves on some sleds but I don't see them on the 550 / vm34 carbs.
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Tom400CFI
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That's right! On the old board, I posted that very thing. Way back then, I was recognizing a pattern and I was concerned. Now I've moved all the way past "pissed", and onto "over it". Yammi 4 stroke for us, from now on.
Anyway, yeah, dealers told us that we need cold air ducting for the OIL PUMP b/c the oil pump was "so hot, the oil is getting above it's flash point". <-That was the quote. "Above flash point". So like, the OIL is catching fire in the case??? "Well no..." That's one of many BS stories I've heard from the dealer. I even talked to the regional rep, and got a run around too. This was several years ago though.
The ONLY thing I care to hear from Polaris now is "We focked up, here are the parts (for free) that will fix your machines and keep them running". Short of that, Polaris can go suck a c...
