$10,000 sleds and up

[OuraySledder]

i disagree that a pack is so far beyond a beacon/probe/shovel.......i don't disagree it is a great safety device, but so far beyond??? what the f are you going to do with your pack if someone IS buried? the beacon/shovel/probe is THE most important tool. ABS is a great addition, but the b/p/s is the must have. my point is that good judgement, and education will do FAR more in keeping you from dying in an avy that ABS will. watch "a dozen more turns"....even with ABS, chances are the fatality and the loss of limb would have still happened......the ABS doesn't have any effect on getting "strained" through trees. MAKE NO MISTAKE.......i believe the ABS is a GREAT tool. but i have seen an increased air of "safety" from guys that have spend the coin to get an ABS. for me, i choose to avoid. it isn't the cost of the ABS. i believe strongly in having the best safety margin i can. you read posts on here all the time in which guys talk about an slide they set off......just a little one, etc..... there is WAY to much ignorance and arrogance. the best way to never die in one, is never being in one. it is probably the most avoidable way sledders are dying. i am happy to be thought of as a girly-man. there have been more than a few times i have refused to follow the group, or sat way off to the side of a big hill as those i was with wore it out. we all have choices.

My regular riding partner also wears the bag. You make it sound as though we no longer wear beacons or practice good avy awareness. I fail to see where that notion comes from. I do everything you do AND wear the bag.

I also think a little more research might be in order. The story on this board of the guy who inflted his bag clearly states that he was able to avoid the trees the slide was sucking him into. Trees he felt he would not have been able to avoid had the floatation of the bag not held him up.

I also think comparing skiers and slides to sledders and slides is a little off. They are most often already going the direction of the slide and never see it coming. We are more apt to be riding into it or across it and if you are paying attention that makes a HUGE difference in survivability.

I guess I am having trouble with the notion continually put out there that if you buy one of these bags you start thinking you are superman. On the girly man side...I woke up this morning SCARED by a sledding dream I had. We are riding tomorrow, spring conditions here but still, I ride with a healthy respect for ol' mother nature, we all should. So I guess I can only speak for myself and the guy I ride with most, we are super careful, everytime. We would never ride with an unprepared group and I bet you one thing, they day you or any other rider see's one of these in action, and it saves a life, I bet you will on the phone that night ordering one. I do believe it is way beyond a shovel and a beacon for the simple fact that it is pro-active rather than re-active. My feeling is, if you are buried, there is a strong chance you are screwed. I prefer not to be buried, the pack is cheap insurance.

 

[x-guy]

i disagree that a pack is so far beyond a beacon/probe/shovel.......i don't disagree it is a great safety device, but so far beyond??? what the f are you going to do with your pack if someone IS buried? the beacon/shovel/probe is THE most important tool. ABS is a great addition, but the b/p/s is the must have. my point is that good judgement, and education will do FAR more in keeping you from dying in an avy that ABS will. watch "a dozen more turns"....even with ABS, chances are the fatality and the loss of limb would have still happened......the ABS doesn't have any effect on getting "strained" through trees. MAKE NO MISTAKE.......i believe the ABS is a GREAT tool. but i have seen an increased air of "safety" from guys that have spend the coin to get an ABS. for me, i choose to avoid. it isn't the cost of the ABS. i believe strongly in having the best safety margin i can. you read posts on here all the time in which guys talk about an slide they set off......just a little one, etc..... there is WAY to much ignorance and arrogance. the best way to never die in one, is never being in one. it is probably the most avoidable way sledders are dying. i am happy to be thought of as a girly-man. there have been more than a few times i have refused to follow the group, or sat way off to the side of a big hill as those i was with wore it out. we all have choices.

Agreed 100%

 

[rockymking]

on a lighter note......what about guys that spend 10 grand on a sled, and not 180 on a cover. you see then trailering down the road, new sled coated in 2 inches of brown schmeg. how the F do you ride when you get to your destination?? ha.

Who needs a cover when you have a sled-deck? Clean as a whistle when you get to the sno-park.....covers are a PITA

 

[Bull]

My regular riding partner also wears the bag. You make it sound as though we no longer wear beacons or practice good avy awareness. I fail to see where that notion comes from. I do everything you do AND wear the bag.

I also think a little more research might be in order. The story on this board of the guy who inflted his bag clearly states that he was able to avoid the trees the slide was sucking him into. Trees he felt he would not have been able to avoid had the floatation of the bag not held him up.

I also think comparing skiers and slides to sledders and slides is a little off. They are most often already going the direction of the slide and never see it coming. We are more apt to be riding into it or across it and if you are paying attention that makes a HUGE difference in survivability.

I guess I am having trouble with the notion continually put out there that if you buy one of these bags you start thinking you are superman. On the girly man side...I woke up this morning SCARED by a sledding dream I had. We are riding tomorrow, spring conditions here but still, I ride with a healthy respect for ol' mother nature, we all should. So I guess I can only speak for myself and the guy I ride with most, we are super careful, everytime. We would never ride with an unprepared group and I bet you one thing, they day you or any other rider see's one of these in action, and it saves a life, I bet you will on the phone that night ordering one. I do believe it is way beyond a shovel and a beacon for the simple fact that it is pro-active rather than re-active. My feeling is, if you are buried, there is a strong chance you are screwed. I prefer not to be buried, the pack is cheap insurance.

ouray, again not arguing that the ABS isn't a great thing. in no way did i intimate that you guys didn't use other safety gear, or use good judgement. i couldn't possibly know that since we have never ridden together.

i don't think i would bank on the ABS saving me from getting munched by the trees. possible, i guess. but if you get pounded by a big slide, you may not even be coherent. again, i agree it is another great layer of safety. my only point is it is A layer. not a blanket.

i am sure there are differences between skiers and riders. however, once you are under the snow i am pretty sure it is the same. dark, cold, and scary. MY WHOLE POINT IS AVOIDANCE IS THE BEST SURVIVAL TOOL!!!!! i don't give a crap what equipment you use, don't use....you still have a chance of dying if you are in an avy. if you are not ever in one.......

it seems like there is far more conversation about surviving any avy than there is about AVOIDING one. am i the only one that feels this way? ouray, have you never run across someone who things because they are wearing a beacon that they are "covered"? i have read many posts on here that start out......"i knew avy danger was high, but............" you sound like a great group of guys to ride with. not dissing you in anyway. just seems like there is always more conversation about how certain equipment does "this or that" for you, but rarely any conversation about avoidance being the primary goal. i was dumbfounded when told by my skiing buddy that he had never seen an avy live.......it said a lot to me about his judgement. he certainly has the rep of being able to ski ANY line, yet has NO problem declining to if his gut says so.

 

[Snorider]

whats your skiing buddys name?

I Might know him. and since he has won a couple of the xtreme titles I'm pretty sure i've at least seen pics.



just curious

 

[Bull]

two guys.....sean daniels, dave swanwick.

 

[OuraySledder]

MY WHOLE POINT IS AVOIDANCE IS THE BEST SURVIVAL TOOL!!!!! i don't give a crap what equipment you use, don't use....you still have a chance of dying if you are in an avy. if you are not ever in one.......

it seems like there is far more conversation about surviving any avy than there is about AVOIDING one.

Point well taken

 

[Snoman69]

Wow, there have been same great replies.....

To clarify, I do not think the ABS pack is a joke.... The idea is great, but look at statistics... Most people killed in Avy's, die from trauma, not suffication....

I also agree that a beacon is no good if the users does not have the knowledge to use it.... When I lend mine out, I go over in detail on how to use it, and test them in the parking lot before leaving....

Again, they key is to know the conditions....

I don't care if you have the fanciest survival gear in the world, it is still only an aid.... Knowledge is far more powerful!

 

[OuraySledder]

Wow, there have been same great replies.....

To clarify, I do not think the ABS pack is a joke.... The idea is great, but look at statistics... Most people killed in Avy's, die from trauma, not suffication....

I think maybe there are a couple of reasons trauma gets them. Being swept into the trees or over a cliff, granted the bag will not save you. Being smart enough to not be on an avy prone slope above such features will

On the other hand, if the trauma is caused while tumbling around in the snow on the way down, the bag likely offers salvation as it keeps you up and out of the churning heavy snow. Riding down on top, assuming there are no obstacles is a whole lot less likely to cause trauma.

Depends on the situation, and everyone is going to be unique, but I wouldn't rule it as ineffective based on trauma death statistics.

 

[Snoman69]

I think maybe there are a couple of reasons trauma gets them. Being swept into the trees or over a cliff, granted the bag will not save you. Being smart enough to not be on an avy prone slope above such features will

On the other hand, if the trauma is caused while tumbling around in the snow on the way down, the bag likely offers salvation as it keeps you up and out of the churning heavy snow. Riding down on top, assuming there are no obstacles is a whole lot less likely to cause trauma.

Depends on the situation, and everyone is going to be unique, but I wouldn't rule it as ineffective based on trauma death statistics.

I never said it was ineffective, just stating that, like beacons, an ABS bag is not the holy grale.... Does it give you better odds, he!! yes....

One day I will own one. I would just like to see more storage added, as I mentioned earlier.

 

[skibreeze]

I think maybe there are a couple of reasons trauma gets them. Being swept into the trees or over a cliff, granted the bag will not save you. Being smart enough to not be on an avy prone slope above such features will

On the other hand, if the trauma is caused while tumbling around in the snow on the way down, the bag likely offers salvation as it keeps you up and out of the churning heavy snow. Riding down on top, assuming there are no obstacles is a whole lot less likely to cause trauma.

Depends on the situation, and everyone is going to be unique, but I wouldn't rule it as ineffective based on trauma death statistics.

Very true, and as Bull said, you need to evaluate each slope. It's imperative to look for terrain traps, runouts, and potential obstacles when climbing slopes. I always look for an "out" just in case something happens. I do believe that the potential for injury is less if you are able to remain on the surface in some cases, but I was in a slide that wasn't very deep, and I got bounced off of a rock while still on the surface. Every circumstance will be different, but I like my chances more with my ABS than without.

 

[Bull]

Wow, there have been same great replies.....

amazing isn't it.....you can discuss/disagree/share opinions and info, all without the SHA/Pinnedundercrap crap. novel approach. just like the old days, eh?

 

[AkSummit]

This thread sounds like a liberal big govt thread...


lol lol

The only thing MANDATORY to ride is a sled and Gas.

The rest depends on the person.

Some people can afford it all, the 10k sled, the $1000 gear+ $1000 bag.

Others just take what they can, make it work and have just as much fun.



There is risk involved - it just depends on how much one wants to take and who wants to be associated with it.

For the record anyone who thinks someone should be told HOW TO and WHAT TO have to ride can KISS MY ***.

I CHOOSE to be prepared when I ride and take the neccasary precautions. But thats a choice and I perfer to keep it that way.

 

[Snoman69]

amazing isn't it.....you can discuss/disagree/share opinions and info, all without the SHA/Pinnedundercrap crap. novel approach. just like the old days, eh?

Exactly.......

To bad it won't last.... There will be some dipsh!t that will feel the need to ruin it.

 

[xrated]

wow guys this is going pretty good.

I agree avoidance is defintily key and being able to get folks out is 2nd. As for the comment about taking "cheap" sleds into the hills...they aren't cheap cause they are crappy, they are cheap because they are 2 or 3 models older. A Gen II or a pre Rev, etc. if the engine is cared for, etc will be just as reliable as a sled off the show room floor that year.

Bull I love your comment on not dropping 180 on a cover!!! You have no idea how many guys run around MN with brand new sleds and no salt shield or cover. You can almost hear the salt eating away the front suspension!!

 

[Snorider]

two guys.....sean daniels, dave swanwick.

lucky BAST**RD
it would be awesome to ski with those guys.

and they are your buddys. I need some friends like that. lol

 

[OuraySledder]

wow guys this is going pretty good.

I agree avoidance is defintily key and being able to get folks out is 2nd. As for the comment about taking "cheap" sleds into the hills...they aren't cheap cause they are crappy, they are cheap because they are 2 or 3 models older. A Gen II or a pre Rev, etc. if the engine is cared for, etc will be just as reliable as a sled off the show room floor that year.

Depends on where you ride too. Tomorrow I will never be more than a mile from either a highway or well travelled road. With conditions as they are it is a pretty easy walk out if a sled breaks down. I also never do overnights on purpose, or even ride at night. I agree that a well cared for older sled can work just fine. Lately I have been spoiled by a new style chassis though. Its all over now....just gotta have one.

 

[ericbigbore]

I also think the bags are good, they're just too small for my needs and they are a little too much money. We could start a whole new thread about those that that have not purchased a rhino yet. That is the best backcountry tool since the beacon and if you don't have one you are foolish. IMO - Eric

 

[Bull]

have to say the SPoT is best bang for the buck next to beacon.....
who's to say who is foolish, some of these are personal preference/riding style/area driven. if you can afford all of them, awesome. if not, you have to prioritize. rhino is great, but much like a beacon....not much good without others using them as well. SPoT can be good for the whole group, even as a single unit.

 

[Ex-Member]

have to say the SPoT is best bang for the buck next to beacon.....
who's to say who is foolish, some of these are personal preference/riding style/area driven. if you can afford all of them, awesome. if not, you have to prioritize. rhino is great, but much like a beacon....not much good without others using them as well. SPoT can be good for the whole group, even as a single unit.

IMO a good two-way radio > SPOT.