XP big bores - lets compare

[Original Tetonice]

I make decent $ and would NEVER expect anyone to do anything for free. I got myself into this mess.....

I intend to tear into it after I have had a few weeks/months to forget how mad I am at it....and if I can't get any help from SS/my dealer, I will definately send it John's way.

I here what your saying.....You do have the right, you paid the $$$ and your expectation level when you paid was to receive something in return for your investment. Which in your case = reliable HP.

I would talk to your dealer about starting over they have ways of getting you a new engine or at minimum new top end part....I guess that all depends how deep your dealer is into the project.

Heck Yah i would be PO'd 2.

OT

 

[tntm7]

Read a few lines back about heads, good heads, To be honest there are very few good aftermarket heads out there, most are made from 6061T6, and the stock 4043T6 heads will disapate much more heat then the billet will.
Then you have the dome factor, now you have a part that is resting on another part relying on surface contact that chatters from the heat now you have limitted surface contact and the dome is left with 70% of the duty of disapating the heat. Love the dome head for testing, wont run one for nothing on a race motor.
one piece heads for me.
I ride a Cat, and can say there isnt one billet head that cools as good as the factory head as of last yr.
I run my BB kit on nitrous and hold the button and empty a 3lbs bottle in one pull, thats some heat, this motor is finishing its second season now with no teardowns and only one power valve cleaning, that took a wire brush and 30 seconds. I really only pulled the valves to look at the piston skirts.

The key to BB long life, when ever you start it, dont use throttle, cold starts let it idle for at least two min before you touch the gas, always let your sled idle down after hard pull, even ride it easy for a min or two to stableize your cooling system, Use Engine ice coolant, or add water wetter to your cooling system, never use more then 50% coolant mix, water cools better then antifreeze. Run good oil and lots of it, so many song and dances about 40-50to1 ratios, OUCH, i run 28to1 and my pipe head pistons, valves are clean as whistle and no loading up.
And when its new, heat cycle it on the stand at least 5 times in 15min on and 30-45min cool down.
and last, break it in nice, 30 min of easy runing, one 5 second hard pull, 30 second idle down then let it cool for 20 min, do that the first tank, you will have pistons that look new after 500 miles.
OH, never use clear gas cans, never let your gas sit exposed to ultraviolet light EVER! 91 octain becomes 86 octain in 4hrs of exposure in a clear gas can left in undirect light!!!!!
THe age old story, things always blow up last ride on sunday, large majority of that is because there gas sat in the sun all weekend and they ran there hotrod on 85 octain or less.

 

[RKT]

Good thread.. and like ANY and ALL threads in a public forum.. full of good info and bad info..

Information is based soley on people's opinions.. nothing more.. How that opinion was formulated is up for debate and how valid the opinion stated is.. is also up for debate.. but to take everything said at face value is just being nieve..

Opinions are derived from many different scenarios.. Some are based soley on what somebody heard or witnessed and others are based on test data (whether it be their own test data or somebody else's) then you ned to question how the test was performed and its validity.. You can test different things using different methods and come up withvery different results.. Trust me on this one.. I did VLSI testing (Writing the tests, integrating the tests, and training) for the US, Brazilan, and Italian Governments for MANY years.

So how about the original question:

1) Comparing 860's: Great topic!! IMHO, the ONLY way to get ANY valid data with respect to this topic is to have ALL the 860's at one place ON THE SNOW and see how they really compare.. Of course, this means that you would need to have ALL 860's properly set-up and running to their full potential. I can not tell you how many sleds are plagued with parasitic losses due to bad bearings, exhaust cans, pipes, clutching alignments, bad belts. etc. etc. etc. the list goes on and on. So, to put a poor running (plagued by other problems) 860 up against and "dialed in" 860 is not fair in the least.. And EVERY engine builder will have those customers that have a sled that is riddled with other issues that hinder performance.. This is just the reality.. So, how do you get the real answer?? Don't know.. but I have always offered to meet up with anybody who wants to compare performance. I did this with all the Pump gas turbos and had a few takers and the results spoke for themselves (even though people were ,and still are, in denial long after the "meet" Again. results are results and they stand on their own merit..
This idea that because you saw any 860 not do so well or you saw one really haul the mail... warrants a "opinion" and "fact" (good or bad) is just not fair to ANY of the engine builders.. Like stated above.. the real way to compare is to actually compare ALL properly set-up 860's to each other in a real world competition.. I am always up for this...

2)OT... Never mind... We all know that story..

3)Tim (tntm7) : some great info.. But again, based on your testing.. other tests will show different results..

Then you have the dome factor, now you have a part that is resting on another part relying on surface contact that chatters from the heat now you have limitted surface contact and the dome is left with 70% of the duty of disapating the heat. Love the dome head for testing, wont run one for nothing on a race motor.
one piece heads for me.
I ride a Cat, and can say there isnt one billet head that cools as good as the factory head as of last yr.

Arctic Cat Heads: Stock cools better than ALL aftermarket heads?? With all due respect.. I will strongly disagree with this.. WHY? Because OUR testing and MANY others testing has proved otherwise.. You are correct that MOST do not do a better job but to state that all do not is simply not true... Obviously you are entitled to your opinion but to state your opinion as FACT is not fair to the readers of your posts.. Especially when we can prove otherwise.. Hopefully you can agree with this?

As for dome chattering.. good call and a big problem with many aftermarket heads.. But, again, different designs and alloys can eliminate this problem.. I can assure you that our dome to shell mating design is very unique and will NOT chatter! and will dissapate heat in the proper manner.. We do TONS on testing with this aspect of the design...Again.. this can be easily proven and to make a blanketed statement like yours is simply not fair to anybody. But, you are entitled to your opinion..

tntm7 break in procedure: Again.. your findings.. we also do MUCH testing with this very subject and the results are very interesting to say the least. I will respectfully strongly disagree with your procedure on this also.. we can leave it at that..

Oil ratio.. Excellent call!! I 100% agree and this is a tough sell to people because they always think that oil cost them power.. SAE papers and real world testing will ALWAYS prove otherwise...In fact, there are MANY threads where people have M running issues and the solution is to REDUCE the oil ratio.. This, is a perfect example of other's opinion and how they can be misleading simply incorrect.

Big Bore reliability: Some 860's are MORE reliable than the STOCK 800 engine.. This is largely due to the MUCH better piston and better porting arrangement and better head design (some 860s more than others)... The reality is that our 860 will run cooler and produce subtantial power increases over ANY stock 800R engine. Pistons WILL last LONGER than stock.. We were the 1st to build the 860 and we have MANY thousands of miles and 3 full years on these engines... They are VERY solid!and very reliable with excellent durability.. Despite what OT states...

Great thread, unfortunately the answers to all the questions will always differ from "Great" to "Piece of Sheet" This will always be the case when you have a large number of readers on a public forum..

Kelsey

 

[tntm7]

RKT, just because your testing and my testing show different results doesnt mean my post was bad info.
The breakin proceedure I posted was done on 300 units over a 3yr period by over 20 different test riders for Yamaha. all these engines where tore down, spec'ed X-rayed, rockewell tested and ultra sound tesed afterwords thats a solid background for a test that not many can replicate.
my test on the billet heads used incoming water temp, under plug temp, 5 locations of water temp inside cylinder, outgoing water temp, head surface temp, Egt,5 wire 02, backed with vapor gas analizer. ambiant air temp IAT and under plug detonation sensors all this data was recorded on a ACR data recorder for a 5 day period.
If i put up a post about data, its data that I accuired doing my testing with above average equipment some state of the art equipment, never hear say. And yes some things are not provable just my Findings accuired over the last 30yrs of building race and production engines.
I did make a mistake in my post, I said last yr, sorry for that, still have not accepted 2009, test was done in 2007.

 

[RKT]

RKT, just because your testing and my testing show different results doesnt mean my post was bad info.
The breakin proceedure I posted was done on 300 units over a 3yr period by over 20 different test riders for Yamaha. all these engines where tore down, spec'ed X-rayed, rockewell tested and ultra sound tesed afterwords thats a solid background for a test that not many can replicate.
my test on the billet heads used incoming water temp, under plug temp, 5 locations of water temp inside cylinder, outgoing water temp, head surface temp, Egt,5 wire 02, backed with vapor gas analizer. ambiant air temp IAT and under plug detonation sensors all this data was recorded on a ACR data recorder for a 5 day period.
If i put up a post about data, its data that I accuired doing my testing with above average equipment some state of the art equipment, never hear say. And yes some things are not provable just my Findings accuired over the last 30yrs of building race and production engines.
I did make a mistake in my post, I said last yr, sorry for that, still have not accepted 2009, test was done in 2007.

TIM,

Nobody said your data was BAD data... Please re-read and you will see that I never said this.. I said there was BAD data inthis thread.. remember you are not the only one posting..

With respect to YOUR posts... If you look, I said that "with all due RESPECT" I disagree.. I do not know how much more politely to phrase that.. I do not see where it is direspectful to disagree whilst giving the person you disagree with ALL DUE RESPECT... again.. we all have our own opinions..

As for testing heads.. I suspect you have not tested ours or your data would be different.. afterall, we also do extensive testing and would never put out a product that has less cooling and certainly not one that chatters.. We have our heads on massive power turbo'd engines and also engines shooting insane amounts of NOS.. with no head movement. this ca not be said for some ot the other head out there.. And Yes, we do use a different alloy than 6061T6..

As for the engine break in procedures.. you must agree that Yami does NOT have an 85MM 2 stroke cylinder and so the testing is not directly related to large bore, high load engines... i do not doubt that the smaller bore engines may prefer a different break in procedure than its larger bore brother.. Also. motorcycles are run at much different rpms and load levels than sleds.. and the triple Yami sled was a very small bore engine..

You must also know that OIL is a MAJOR player in engine break in and life/wear.. I am sure Yami did not test ALL oils.. Agreed? so, no doubt, with Yami oil and small engines.. your procedure is probably a great one to follow. but change oil, water temp, bore size,stroke, and rpms and the data can surely change.. Agreed??

Kelsey

 

[tntm7]

RKT
1) Comparing 860's: Great topic!! IMHO, the ONLY way to get ANY valid data with respect to this topic is to have ALL the 860's at one place ON THE SNOW and see how they really compare.. Of course, this means that you would need to have ALL 860's properly set-up and running to their full potential. I can not tell you how many sleds are plagued with parasitic losses due to bad bearings, exhaust cans, pipes, clutching alignments, bad belts. etc. etc. etc. the list goes on and on. So, to put a poor running (plagued by other problems) 860 up against and "dialed in" 860 is not fair in the least.. And EVERY engine builder will have those customers that have a sled that is riddled with other issues that hinder performance.. This is just the reality.. So, how do you get the real answer?? Don't know.. but I have always offered to meet up with anybody who wants to compare performance. I did this with all the Pump gas turbos and had a few takers and the results spoke for themselves (even though people were ,and still are, in denial long after the "meet" Again. results are results and they stand on their own merit..
This idea that because you saw any 860 not do so well or you saw one really haul the mail... warrants a "opinion" and "fact" (good or bad) is just not fair to ANY of the engine builders.. Like stated above.. the real way to compare is to actually compare ALL properly set-up 860's to each other in a real world competition.. I am always up for this...
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This is so true, but dont you think there is a little bit to say about how these shops treat those who come in to have there BB built, I think most who look at these threads want to know where to take there Sled to get done.
Which smacks the shops in the face with there ability to find these problems with there customers units at the time of the build?
So my oppinion is there is no other way to call out who makes the strongest runner then to line them up. But what better way to see what they do for others then to show people how well they setup there walk in no name face customers! then to hear everyones story about what happend to them.
THen we all just have to weed through the. HOW BAD DID THE CUSTOMER JACK IT UP! DId they do all the recomended replacements, setup, clutching etc.

 

[tntm7]

TIM,

Nobody said your data was BAD data... Please re-read and you will see that I never said this.. I said there was BAD data inthis thread.. remember you are not the only one posting..

With respect to YOUR posts... If you look, I said that "with all due RESPECT" I disagree.. I do not know how much more politely to phrase that.. I do not see where it is direspectful to disagree whilst giving the person you disagree with ALL DUE RESPECT... again.. we all have our own opinions..

As for testing heads.. I suspect you have not tested ours or your data would be different.. afterall, we also do extensive testing and would never put out a product that has less cooling and certainly not one that chatters.. We have our heads on massive power turbo'd engines and also engines shooting insane amounts of NOS.. with no head movement. this ca not be said for some ot the other head out there.. And Yes, we do use a different alloy than 6061T6..

As for the engine break in procedures.. you must agree that Yami does NOT have an 85MM 2 stroke cylinder and so the testing is not directly related to large bore, high load engines... i do not doubt that the smaller bore engines may prefer a different break in procedure than its larger bore brother.. Also. motorcycles are run at much different rpms and load levels than sleds.. and the triple Yami sled was a very small bore engine..

You must also know that OIL is a MAJOR player in engine break in and life/wear.. I am sure Yami did not test ALL oils.. Agreed? so, no doubt, with Yami oil and small engines.. your procedure is probably a great one to follow. but change oil, water temp, bore size,stroke, and rpms and the data can surely change.. Agreed??

Kelsey

Kelsey, your right, i put a I there and meant bad, no worries, I have no problem with you and your comments, there very professional and valid.
We call it a friendly debate. lol

 

[tntm7]

RKT yamaha does have a 85mm bore engine, the motors tested in that 300 had 81mm-82-83-84-84.5-85.5-86mm bores. 68-77mm strokes.

 

[Original Tetonice]

Kelsey, your M7 head doesn't do sqwat on our 2006, i agree with TNTM7.. On the other other hand your hemi design works good on our 2004 skidoo.....As for your 860 after 3 years they should be getting better. You won't stand here and explain/admit about them lemons you built/sold. LOL

Good skidoo head i'll give you credit where credit is due. Just curious do you still think you can't shave a stock doo head, I'll never forget that thread many moons ago. That was right up there with BJ's "Ramps are fixed and do not move" thread. LOL


OT

The trouble with BJ and the rest of the peddelers like him is they choose to read what the want to and than pretend to know what there talking about by posting useless babbel......What do you know about the M7 head, BabbleJohn ?

OT

 

[Insaneboltrounder/sjohns]

Kelsey... just curious , what break in do you suggest for your 860s?

 

[Original Tetonice]

This is so true, but dont you think there is a little bit to say about how these shops treat those who come in to have there BB built, I think most who look at these threads want to know where to take there Sled to get done.
Which smacks the shops in the face with there ability to find these problems with there customers units at the time of the build?
So my oppinion is there is no other way to call out who makes the strongest runner then to line them up. But what better way to see what they do for others then to show people how well they setup there walk in no name face customers! then to hear everyones story about what happend to them.
THen we all just have to weed through the. HOW BAD DID THE CUSTOMER JACK IT UP! DId they do all the recomended replacements, setup, clutching etc.[/QUOTE]

Good Point TNTM7

Almost every aftermarket BB builder stands behind the "industry wide standard"... mod your motor at your own risk. The aftermarket BB builder will almost 100% of the time attempt to explain thats it's "owner error it's owner error"......

In some case it is and in some cases it's not.

If your going to line up ALL the 860 you have to have it spread out over multiple trials. So every dog can have a shot of having a good day.....With that said, You can lineup 6 excellent running 860 and it still going to boil down to clutching and carberation of the 860.

OT

 

[deaner]

Wow this post sure went sideways! Everyone -this started as a constructive resource to really learn about the differant BB setups, How about getting back to the topic,Viewers dont wish to hear anymore of this,Theres much to learn about builders setups and this turned to an embarrassing display.

X2!!

Thanks to everyone who are posting up constructive questions and comments. This is exactly the stuff I was hoping to see to make a decision between BB kits.

OT........you can stop posting any time. Thanks.

 

[sledhead_24_7]

I have been really digging some of the info in here. but after some of the posts I am wondering what happened to the info on the 860 BB comparisons as I am interested putting one on my xp. Keep up the good info for those who are.

 

[tntm7]

Who builds the best big bore's, that's suck a tough question,1- every builder is usually going to think they do.
Every shop is going to have a horror story or two. Every shop is going to have a lemon sooner or later.
The difference is are they going to call you a liar and schit, or are they making right buy the problemed customers.
Did the customer create the lemon?
My best advice would be, does the owner or engine builder you choose ride where you ride, will he ever have to see you face to face with others around all trying to have good time?
If you say yes to that, you prob get the best service from them. Remember that's prob.
As for reality, 800r has pretty agressive port timing from the factory, there isn't much room for magic to be performed, keep in mind I said much! Not none. There is fair amount of room for creative grinding to cost you dearly!
Ask your shop what they do porting wise, be specific, not trail port or race port, ask for numbers changed, what was it stock what is it when your done?
If a shop thinks there port timing is propritory info, then you might ask your self what other secrets do they keep?
What rpm range do they recomend?
If you want a sled that runs day to day find a kit that runs very similar to stock rpm, pipes, reeds, ignition mapping all built around that rpm range so it's a safe consistant hp. But may not be the fastest one on the hill.

 

[trinitypowder]

Great thread, but in reading it, gotta say OT at least thinks he's contributing, good or bad, I can't really say. But you, you're almost as annoying with your babble, and you're not contributing squat.

Thank God you're back SLICK! Thought we lost all of your knowledge. Go to General-there's a nice movie waiting for you! It figures that you would surface in the DOO section.

 

[Original Tetonice]

Example: When you tell a certain builder that his M7 head i purchased doesn't do sqwat.......Many Of Them but not all will tuck there head between there cheeks ( I ) and pretend they doen't hear anything as well as fail to reply.

OT

 

[BIG JOHN]

Example: When you tell a certain builder that his M7 head i purchased doesn't do sqwat.......Many Of Them but not all will tuck there head between there cheeks ( I ) and pretend they doen't hear anything as well as fail to reply.

OT

So I'm in MY shop...phone rings..I answer (I'm good at that customer service stuff...)...and Joe Q skidoo is on the phone, he tells me "his sled ran better with the stock head VS RKT's"... I'm kinda floored at this (I've been selling them since 2001 for a reason) and ask him what sled?... "its an XP" he says...hmmm I think, what jetting are you at??..."I jetted UP 1 size"...OOOPS...I recomended he REJET to 450's and retest...he said " NO WAY, I'll burn down"...I said "If it burns down with 450's I'll buy ya a piston"...

3 days later...phone rings (I answer it AGAIN...)..same dude, different problem...TOO much rpm from the HP he found from the GREAT RKT head thats on his sled...

moral of the story...if OT works on it...it wont work...LOL-BJ

BTW- cutting a 2003-2006 800HO Summit head is foolish (its already at .035-.040" squish and 13.5-1 compression STOCK)..NOW a std. 800 or 800HO from a MXZ, 600HO, 670, 700, 800R etc.. I cut them all the time...and ramps are adjustable...theres even a MOVIE showing "they dont move" in another thread somewere...

 

[tntm7]

BJ, if I hold my phone a little closer to the sled can you fix it for me?
I wont call till tomorrow and need it yesterday.

 

[winter brew]

"...if OT works on it...it wont work...LOL-BJ"

You should have t-shirts made.

 

[Original Tetonice]

Kelsey, your M7 head doesn't do sqwat on our 2006, i agree with TNTM7.. On the other other hand your hemi design works good on our 2004 skidoo.....As for your 860 after 3 years they should be getting better. You won't stand here and explain/admit about them lemons you built/sold. LOL

Good skidoo head i'll give you credit where credit is due. Just curious do you still think you can't shave a stock doo head, I'll never forget that thread many moons ago. That was right up there with BJ's "Ramps are fixed and do not move" thread. LOL


OT

The trouble with BJ and the rest of the peddelers like him is they choose to read what the want to and than pretend to know what there talking about by posting useless babbel......What do you know about the M7 head, BabbleJohn ?

OT

Come On BabbleJohn what do you know the worthless M7 head you buddy builds and sells ?