Why Can't Lightweight and Reliability Exist in the same sled?

[Frostbite]

I have heard from so many that the 146" XPs work like a dream. The guys at the dealership that rode them all said the same thing.

I guess with a 146 x 16 you have 2,336 square inches of track. With a 153 x 15 you have 2,295 square inches of track under the sled. Now I see on Dootalk the guys are putting 15 wide Camo Extremes under their Summit Xs and talking about how much more manueverable their sleds are now.

Maybe there's good reason for the manufactures to use this length of track on their "free rider" sleds? The wider front end on these sleds kind of make me how easy they would be to boondock with and do powder turns.

Frosty

 

[nwm8]

i put a 136 track on a 03 rev mxz, the ski stance was way too wide for me(mostly side hilling), but like i said before i like boondocking. i'll suffer the rode ride and yes the m does feel like a "barrel" compared to a rev or xp but i like that when boondocking, that's why it feel so easy to toss around. The barrel feeling does stop when sidehilling, then it becomes very stable.

But, stick to your idea of riding them first, it's pretty obvious all the sleds have a different feel, to each there own.

 

[AKrider]

Wide front ends work better for trails than off trail riding. A narrow front end is easier to carve and sidehill with but then if you also like to ride fast to and from the mountain, the narrow front end kinda sucks. Just depends on your priorities.

Hey Frosty,
Here's my 2 cents. Since you keep your sleds for a long time and hold reliability and day to day runability in high regard, I'd stick with a 4 stroke Yamaha. Of course the big down side is the weight. They are fricking heavy but can be made lighter if a guy wants to spend money. I personally think you're safer spending money to lose weight than on engine performance parts. You figure that any two stroke you buy, you will be rebuilding the top end of your motor at around 5000 miles depending on how hard you ride it. In my experience, a 2-stroke motor is always what fails catastrophically. With a 4-stroke you've got the reliability and they make good power, it's then just tayloring the sled to yourself. A bunch of light weight parts on a Nytro will make for a nice, turn the key and ride everyday sled.. Heck, it doesn't even require premium gas.

 

[suitcase]

frosty,
I have a 08 and 09 dragon 800 and love it it fits the way I ride very well. but you have to ride it all the time there is really no seating down unless you like 30 mph when on the trail. We ride in the timber most of the time and with the D8 you sneeze on one side it will lay over. On the other hand I ride with guys who are doo riders all have 09 xp. and if I must say that (well here it goes) Doo rides, and once you get use to the sled would probaly be easier to handle, seems to be more friendly not so sensitive to your weight transfur. Dont get me wrong I love the poo and they will compete with the Doo 800 It will depend on how you ride and where you ride. As far and the cats well (sorry cat fans) but have not road or seen one that was SET UP WELL well yet. they get left behind.
Just my two cents.

 

[Frostbite]

Ak Rider, you seem to have way more common sense than most. I really like your idea of a physically smaller sled and coupled with a honkin track and a tapered tunnel and a four stroke (perhaps Nytro) motor it would be semi light and an absolute blast. I can always dream.

NWM8, I guess I wasn't as clear as I could have been but, I was referring to the Nytro MTX when I was talkling about feeling like riding a barrel. So I hear, they don't have that stopping point you talk about that the M series has and I hear they tend to just keep on rolling over? Urban myth, I'm not sure?

Yes, I'm quite certain my RX-1M would last for many, may years. It has most of the lightweight goodies already on it with a camo extreme and rider forward, Boss seat, M7 rear skid, etc. I do love the sled (and I'll probably keep it?).

There is no doubting Yamaha's reliability, even under reasonable boost. I expect you'll see a new war in the boosted four stroke mountain category. You see the new Arctic Cat Z1 turbo and Skidoo 4Tec boosted to hp levels on par with what the Yamaha's have been running. It's a road I really don't want to go down. I'd much prefer a Skidoo ETEC 600 with a 146 or 154 if it was 25 lbs. lighter than the Summit X 800 but, they are within a few lbs of each other (actually the 800 X is lighter) so going with the smaller engine doesn't make much sense. Again, maybe a larger ETEC engine is the ticket?

I just wish I could ride some of the new sleds. I asked all the local dealers to get on their "demo ride" list and most of them said they really don't do one. I don't get that? Buying a sled you haven't ridden and hoping for the best isn't what I prefer to do, if at all possible.

Frosty

 

[HOLLYWOOD1]

I currently own 98 RMK 700 and still really enjoy it but was looking to maybe try the latest and greatest. Anyway, I have 3000 miles on it and have just gone to a new belt as I had a torque stop brace installed when I bought the sled new in 98. What I am getting at is after reading the threads I am of the opinion that really none of these 3 manufacturers (Cat, Doo, Poo....forget Yamaha as I am not a 4 stroke fan and won't be unless they go on a serious diet) have still not got any of these machines dialed in. It appears that these manufacturers just crank out the product and leave the "beta testing" up to the public....really a tragedy with the economic times when a premium product really should be available. Doo for example should be embarrassed with the brutal alignment of their belts and disgusting porous cranks.....they still just need to get a grip on something that should be second nature but obviously hasn't happened yet.....some guys have burned up a belt every 50 miles......come on....how can this happen? Obviously someone over at BRP doesn't care as they keep getting handouts from the CDN govt but thats another story. The fella I talked to said that the Doo riders have to learn to ride differently.....so cracking a long track Doo off the line will most likely burn a belt as something has to give...tell me this guy was kidding as I love nutting it! I was seriously looking at a Poo again but when I heard that guys were burning out hi faxes out in the first 100 or so miles, I put my cheque book right back in my pocket as buying a headache is not really on my top 10 list. With Poo heres the real kicker.....snow is getting into the airbox from around the head lights, again you have to be kidding.....put a flashlight in the airbox, turn out the lights and then note where all the light is coming from....the solution, break out the caulking gun and run beads of silicone around the lights where one sees light passing through....all I can say is WOW and maybe next year....not lightly! Now Cat with their big boy on the block, the 1000 ....couldn't stay together even with JB Weld!.....nice....and they wonder why all the others have pulled they plug on the 900's and 1000's.....hello McFly!!!!!Anyone home? The M's seating position....once I got my knees out of the front cowling...it feels like one is sitting on a balance beam as the seat feels that narrow. As well, the balance beam is sitting at a 45 degree angle pushing my knees into the cowling....knee pads anyone? I feel like I am being pushed downhill while sitting on the sled in the showroom. Anyway, you guys get it but the manufacturers still havent.....looks like I will leave my cheque book in the drawer and keep riding my RMK.... Have fun fixing and R&Ding this crap as I have better things to do like ride and leave the hood down!! I'm out!!!!

 

[Slick]

You need to seriously re-examine your thinking process. Its a bit skewed.

PS. There's been some awesome advances in sleds from year 2000 and up. LOL.

 

[Frostbite]

Me or Hollywood1?

Frosty

 

[dice]

If you find yourself on the front range of colorado, xtreme performance will let you ride demo sleds they carry polaris, yamaha, and ski doo. My 2 cents, I have 942 miles on my xp and love it, I ride with arctic cat guys and they are impressed with how it works for me.

 

[HOLLYWOOD1]

You need to seriously re-examine your thinking process. Its a bit skewed.

PS. There's been some awesome advances in sleds from year 2000 and up. LOL.

What kind of awesome advances....belts that blow off at 50 miles....you bet large advances....Sleds are lighter and need to have holes drilled all over the sleds to keep clutches cool, carbs still on Doos, you bet large advances....hand warmers that melt the wires....suspensions that still sag like the suspension on a old SNO JET! Wheres the awesome advances? I'm waiting....This sounds like a 2 steps forward 3 steps back scenario....where are these fabulous advances? Rose colored glasses yes, advances unacceptable. Over engineering yes, advancement not so sure. Thanks for your constructive feedback...this will hopefully be read by the manu's..... LOL.

 

[AKrider]

Years ago an older racer and former 80's era Polaris dealer told me that until the Rev came out, we basically had the same thing coming out year after year from the OEM's. Take the basic Indy chassis. It did not drastically change from 1980 to 1998. The major improvements involved additional suspension travel and larger engines. With the Rev the rider forward design was constructed into the chassis and it wasn't something that could be easily adapted (if at all) on an older chassis. It was a revolutionary change and advancement.

Ski-Doo is making some huge leaps towards lighter weight. The XP's have their issues but all OEM's do. I basically look at the current sleds with Yamaha being on top for engine reliability but the worst for weight. Ski-doo is on top for light weight but their motors seem to have (more than their fair share) of problems compared to the other makes. Polaris and Cat are somewhere in the middle with Polaris having a solid chassis with temperamental motors and Cat having lighter weight and more reliable motors that don't make as much power.

Frosty,
If you haven't already done so, search for LRD and take a look at how he lightened up an '08 TNT. He installed a longer track and created a really nice sled. The non-HO 600 motor is the most reliable liquid cooled motor Ski-doo has. I think his ideas would make for a very fun and light weight sled. This season he's doing the same thing to a 600 Summit.

I'd think with the weight loss and a good rider, the 600 wouldn't give up much at all to a stock 800 plus be way easier to throw around.

 

[backcountryislife]

My choice (a cat guy here) would be a mid track Iq racer if you could find one, the ASSault is no comparison to those things. Not sure about engine reliability but the chassis seems like the best built thing you can buy.

I chose to go with a mid track M1000 (started its life as a crossfire), VERY happy with the choice, only got a 141 but it has outclimbed everything I have put it against so far. (no I'm not stupid enough to assume this will stay the case, but 860 xp's, semi-modded M1000's, d8, m8, and a few others it has done very well against) I've got about 50 lbs pulled so far, and another 10 or so to go. if you can stay out of the engine the 1000 will get you the best hp/relaibility ratio you'll find. Very little work will put you in the 180's & it's very easy to pull weight off of these sleds without losing strength.

IMO, you either like the F'd up (who, me, biased???)steering of the rev which means you like the xp & nitro, or you like the rest of the sleds. I like my snopro racer but still can't get used to the wierd steering of the xp's.


btw, Duke, are you ever going to come play with us???!!! I wanna see how that toy of yours does on the big stuff by my house.

 

[Frostbite]

Thanks again guys.

I spent the day finally finishing the of a stuffing a Nytro MTX skid and a 153" Maverick under a 97 MM700 for my son.

Thanks for all the inputs.

Keep them coming.

Frosty

 

[Mjunkie]

Hey hollywood1, I had a '98 700 RMK and it was an awesome sled. I took that thing through hell and back more than once and it just kept on going. I sold it and bought an '02 800 RMK 144 thinking with a longer track and some extra ponies under the hood I'd have an even better sled... I was wrong!! Don't get me wrong, it was a good sled, it ran pretty good and was pretty reliable, but I think my old 700 would have had it's lunch anyday of the week. Then I switched teams and bought an '05 M7 141". From day one, I knew it was going to be far better than either of my RMK's. It has more power than both of them, feels lighter, handles better, and best of all, if I'm just putting down a trail and hit a rock or tree stump, my day isn't over because I've bent a trailing arm...AGAIN!! I rode it stock other than an aftermarket can for the first season and had no problems at all. Just put gas in it and went, and loved every minute of it. In my opinion... huge advancement in a sled, yes I did switch teams, so I'm kind of comparing an apple to an orange, but still an advancement. I would bet that most new sleds out there don't have all the problems that you've listed, whatever the brand. Yes, there are some that do, but I seriously doubt it is the majority. Sh$t happens sometimes. Once in awhile the new sled isn't quite as good as last years (and even that's just opinion), but if you are implying that your old '98 is as good or better than anything new out there, you need to get out of the ice age and into the world of today. Nothing is made perfect, there are always some flaws, but I guarantee you that sleds are getting better and not worse.

Frosty, my .02... If you're willing to spend the money on "extras" for your sled but don't want to lose reliability, find the brand/chassis that you like the best, and spend the rest on taking weight off non-critical things like someone else said. Buy a lightweight hood, a lightweight seat, a lightweight can, a lightweight suspension, and even if the motor doesn't have the highest HP, you'll still outclimb and out manuever those that do because yours is lighter. There are 2 ways to improve power to weight ratio... Increase power, or lose weight. Losing weight won't comprimise reliability if done with some smarts, and it will get you farther up the hill (if that's your thing) just as much as adding HP can.

 

[Frostbite]

Mjunkuie, you just described my RX-1M. The motor is rock solid. I have lightened up most everything possible and it works very well.

The way the 03 RX-1's keep going and going almost makes it sound like Hollywood1's argument may have some merrit?

The challenge is, I just want one just like it (reliability wise) only 100lbs lighter.

Frosty

 

[Clarke673]

The challenge is, I just want one just like it (reliability wise) only 100lbs lighter.

Frosty

Thats true with everything you can ride.

 

[Motley Doo]

I knocked over a 10ft tall, 6" diameter tree the other day with my zx mod, came away with a scratch on the bumper and a "piney" fresh scent, but then again, it's anything but LIGHT WEIGHT! LOL!

 

[AKrider]

Here's an idea, although it isn't very practical. However, if money were no object, you could use your existing RX-1 and have a custom chassis built for it using carbon fiber. Seems like I saw a carbon fiber Rev on here that used a Vector motor. You could probably reuse a bunch of your existing parts and sell whatever is left over. Or go with one of the new, single ply tracks and some exotic super light weight skid. What would be really cool is have them do it at a smaller scale like 7/8ths. Perhaps the RX-1 motor would not be the best choice for a smaller sized sled but at least it wouldn't be lacking in power!

As far as reliability goes I don't know? I'm more familiar with carbon fiber when it comes to mountain bikes. It seems like they only use carbon fiber for cross country mountain bikes and go with aluminum for downhill and freeride bikes are are jumped and beat on. Maybe a carbon fiber sled chassis would be too delicate for jumping and riding fast through the whoops. I don't know.

 

[Clarke673]

I am a down hiller too. They do that because you can't see cracks and you can't repare it before it snaps.

You can fix aluminum.

 

[cmantle1]

heres my answer to the original question.....

lightweight and reliability can, or cannot exist in the same sled depending on your definition of each.