Which Aftermarket Suspension is best: K-Mod, Timbersled, EZ-Ride, TeamFast?

[NorthMNSledder]

SORRY!
No.
I have made NO decisions at this point.

I am still wide open to either a KMOD or a TIMBERSLED Rear Skid for this coming winter.

My only real concern is in being able to accurately report back on my findings from the new front end before I replace the rear skid.

If I change out Both the front and rear at the same time, and ad the supercharger, I will never be able to say for sure which mod made which difference.

Sure you can. Because then you can say that with the Supercharger and the suspension upgrades the sled is "The perfect combination of balance and power. The MPI Supercharger gives the sled a whole new look on life. The Skinz front gives the Nytro the boondocker nimbleness it was lacking from the factory and the KMOD/Timbersled rear skid gets the sled on top of the snow and keeps the nose down while climbing."

 

[christopher]

"The perfect combination of balance and power.

The MPI Supercharger gives the sled a whole new look on life.

The Skinz front gives the Nytro the boondocker nimbleness it was lacking from the factory and

the KMOD/Timbersled rear skid gets the sled on top of the snow and keeps the nose down while climbing."

I suppose your right.
At the end of the day, that is pretty much EXACTLY where I want to end up with my Nytro!!

I have 4 months of modding left.

Who knows, maybe I will end up with a new skid underneath her before Thanskgiving rolls around....

 

[Thistledoo]

Those are good pics Since the gen one which is 3 yrs old now he is using Elka shock for the rear which are made in eastern canada. Also the magnetic coupler blocks work in the transfer area there and he gives you 3 different sizes so you just drop em in there for higher or lower coupling. I works pretty slick....no tools or anything needed

 

[NorthMNSledder]

I suppose your right.
At the end of the day, that is pretty much EXACTLY where I want to end up with my Nytro!!

I have 4 months of modding left.

Who knows, maybe I will end up with a new skid underneath her before Thanskgiving rolls around....

It will be close if your thinking Timbersled...Don't the new 2012 Skids start shipping the end of October?

I'm trying to decide if I want to order one of those or something else.

 

[christopher]

Honestly don't know.
Mountainhorse seems to be the resident expert on all things Timbersled.
He likely knows when product will be flowing.

 

[NorthMNSledder]

I think Mountainhorse reported it also in the Timbersled thread in general, but the Timbersled website says "Estimated delivery date - 10/31/11". Which works great for me as my season starts a bit later then yours.

 

[mountainhorse]

How did Racers Edge get around the patent that Team-FAST has on the M-10 design?

 

[mountainhorse]

I think that the KMOD and the Timbersled are limited in delivery date only by the shock suppliers... FOX generally delivers late September/Early October...

I don't believe it is the hardware that would push it late in the season.

The new shocks... EXIT in the T-Sled and Raptor in the KMOD may change that a bit.

Originally Posted by christopher:
Honestly don't know.
Mountainhorse seems to be the resident expert on all things Timbersled.
He likely knows when product will be flowing.

I'm actually working on a suspension article for the forums here... I contacted all of the Mfgs... Timbersled and EZ-Ryde have replied to phone calls and Emails... the others have not yet. I'll be working a bit more on this in August.

 

[akrevrider]

Hopefully we can get some comments from other users in here.

I have been very happy with my Timbersled suspension for the past two riding seasons and with Timbersled’s outstanding product support. I have conducted numerous purchases from TS and all of their products have been high quality and backed by outstanding support. The suspension design has flat out worked for me in the deep snow and has held up well despite me abusing it hard during the first season.

During a run across a glacier moraine I hit a small boulder tweaking my tunnel, bending the front Mountain Tamer arm, and bending one of the Ice Age rails. After making a repair list and placing the order for replacement parts the box arrived a week later and included two new Ice Age rails. The rail design had changed and Allen sent the second rail at cost so the suspension would stay tuned by being evenly matched.

Bottom line: I will be riding the Timbersled suspension again this season and the new 2012 Mtn Tamer suspension under a new Pro next season.

<O</O
akrevrider

 

[KMOD]

K MOD

Chris
It's good to see all the interest focused around rear suspension technology; this tells me that the industry is thriving and as strong as ever!

We wanted to clarify a couple key things about why we chose our current hard points (geometry) and what issues we were trying to solve. Anytime you double and sometimes triple (at altitude) the HP a stock suspension is designed for, this can and usually does create amplified problems such as excessive ski lift, track tensioning (ratcheting), poor ride quality and other ill effects that non coupled skids give you.

With falling rate regressive NOT progressive, non-linkage suspensions, like ALL of them in this debate, all you can do is try and manipulate the geometry to meet the metrics that you set out for in the first place. How we addressed our metrics at K MOD was with a no compromise approach with the design that lead us to our equal length arms. The beauty with equal length arms is not only common parts front and rear but it's the arrangement from what we call side view swing arm angles. With our arms being equal in length this gives us perfect symmetry due to both arms traveling in the same arc as they go through travel. This combined with our "geometrical correct" mounting locations in the chassis gives you perfect track tension curves, up to 100% coupling capabilities, and 0 binding at any level of coupling.

We feel our "geometrical correct" remount is trivial in the installation process and is critical to performance of a coupling suspension.

All these attributes combined with "Double & Triple rate springs, full range of adjustable coupling and the all new RAPTOR SHOCKS with over 300% dampening adjustment or Fox Evol air combo’s combines for a first class high performance coupled suspension.
Contact us with any comments-questions about our all new "Stocker" or "Boosted" systems.
Thanks, Kevin

 

[WyoBoy1000]

It would be cool to see what the weight saving would be on all these skids, I think the AC skid and PC track dropped around 22lbs, if I remember right and I know the Kmod drops weight on the m-series but not sure how much is different on the yami. I think they all look pretty close in the amount of materiel used so there should be some good gains in weight reduction.

 

[KMOD]

It would be cool to see what the weight saving would be on all these skids, I think the AC skid and PC track dropped around 22lbs, if I remember right and I know the Kmod drops weight on the m-series but not sure how much is different on the yami. I think they all look pretty close in the amount of materiel used so there should be some good gains in weight reduction.

A stock 08-09 Nytro skid is 67lbs, the 2010 and 11,
I think is about 58lbs.
A complete K MOD skid with Float/Evol combo and two wheel kit with ice scratchers is 43lbs.
Raptors add 3.5lbs
Kevin

 

[motojunkie101]

The older TS skid with their drop brackets dropped 38lbs off the 08/09 Nytros. I think you would still be close to 25/30 pounds off a newer nytro. This is speculation on my part though, hopefully someone will have some solid numbers out there.

 

[WyoBoy1000]

Maybe the AC skid doesn't drop as much as I thought, (or what someone told me)

 

[Timbersled]

Here are a few specs about our new 2012 Mtn. Tamer.
Complete suspension weight 38 lbs even. This includes Fox Evol shocks and 2 wheel kit. Add about 4 lbs. for Exit shocks.
Its coupling capability is adjustable from 0% (uncoupled) to 80% (this means that the back arm can mechanically pull down the front arm 80% of its available travel without binding in any way).

I think the best thing that any of us aftermarket manufacturers can do is educate the buyers on our products and also help them understand the stock system so you can better understand why we go through all the effort to do what we do. With this mind set I think you will feel more comfortable spending money on aftermarket goodies.

I posted this up under the General section some time ago under the All New 2012 Mtn. Tamer Thread. I have reworded it a little to better fit this thread.

I can explain the difference between an Uncoupled and Coupled Suspension and how they work and why they all have a falling compression rate or what they call a digressive rate. The falling rate is something that OEM and aftermarket snowmobile manufactures battle. It is mostly a problem on mountain sleds and is very hard to fix, almost impossible because snowmobile suspensions have 2 moving ends of the system that are connected together with slide rails and these 2 ends are sometimes working against each other.

On an uncoupled suspension, with coil over shocks or torsion springs, like the OEM skids...The front arm is bolted directly to the rail and the back arm is mounted to the rail with a hinging scissor arm, with this it allows the front and back portions of the rail to move up and down independently (meaning uncoupled). For the suspension to work properly it requires the rail to slide back to fully activate the back track shock because it has a linkage style push pull system to compress the shock. The angle of the front arm controls the backward movement of the rails. When the front arm travels most of the way down it becomes totally level and then inverts the other way, this then slides the rail forward a little bit and this takes some stroke away from the back track shock and spring, the suspension then has a split second soft spot and the suspension bottoms instead of stopping the motion. This is called a falling or digressive compression rate.

Front arm inversion is not a problem on a suspension with vertically mounted shocks like the listed suspensions. The problem occurs when the Back Arm travels down past vertical, then the back shock fights the arm being angled the wrong way and this will create the same falling rate problem. On the Timbersled Mtn. Tamer, we bottom the arm on the rail before it inverts so this problem does not appear.

When a suspension is coupled the two arms work together more often to give more progressive rate for most of its travel. When the suspension is coupled, the back arm is acting like the front arm by pushing the rail back which in return pulls the front arm up.

The other thing that is happening that you cannot see is the amount of load it takes to make this coupling action work. The load forces are being put into the rails and tunnel between the front and back mounting bolt holes.

“Ok, now is when you need to know your geometry to understand this”

There are two load forces pushing together between the bolt hole in the rail and in the tunnel. These two load forces are parallel to each other and remain this way as the suspension travels downward in one synchronized motion (coupled). If at any point this parallel moving motion gets closer together on the back than the front, the suspension will go into an extreme falling (digressive) compression rate... We call this camming over center. At this point the suspension gets much too soft and bottoms out very easily. People that have had coupling suspensions in the past can relate to this Cam over center problem. As things progress and new technology is invented, products evolve and become better.

On the new 2012 Mtn. Tamer we have adjusted the geometry to prevent these situations from happening. It is not one thing that has improved our suspension, it is more like 20 small things that have fixed these issues.

I encourage you to go to our web site and take the time to read through it to learn more about our new suspension and watch our new tech video. It will better educate you about suspensions and how they work so that you can see it with your own eyes.

http://timbersled.com/mtntamerAbout.htm
http://timbersled.com/mtntamerVideo.htm

Hope you all could understand all that. If not chime in and I will help you out.

Allen

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/mUWE3ITfBcI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[christopher]

<table style="position:relative; left:0;" align="center" cellpadding="8"><tbody><tr><td align="center"></td><td align="center"></td><td align="center"></td></tr></tbody></table>All New 2012 Mtn. Tamer Back Suspension System
Timbersled has raised the bar on quality and innovative design of lightweight aftermarket suspensions. The all new 2012 Mtn. Tamer has been re-engineered from its original design to be a higher quality top of the line mountain sled suspension with all new technology. This new system will exceed your expectations in design quality, tune-ability and a smooth ride that you would expect from an aftermarket suspension.
The kit provides a substantial weight loss and gives added traction on all snow types. To achieve this, the system puts even pressure on the snow between the front and back portion of the rails no matter what position your sled is setting in. This is accomplished by the mounting method of our shocks and our adjustable coupling rear arm slide mechanism. This will make your sled trench less, giving you better stop and go traction in deep snow and give you better ski control on steep hills.

• 42 lbs complete suspension weight with EXIT IFP shocks.
• 38 lbs complete suspension weight with Fox Float Evol shocks.
• Simpler adjustments throughout the suspension.
• Infinite coupling control adjustment at your fingertips.
• Coupling adjustment ability, 0% to 80% (see more details below).
• Patent Pending on slide mechanism and coupling adjuster design.
• Eliminates the cam over center problem common to coupling suspensions.
• Totally progressive compression rate making it feel similar to the back suspension on a dirt bike.
• All new shock packages available.
• System will mount in all stock tunnel bolt holes with no modifications needed.
• System will mount to most stock rails or our custom Ice Age rails.
• Constructed from 4130 chrome molly steel and CNC machined billet aluminum
• Suspension arm color options and powder coating of the rails are available.
• Kit prices Starting at $1475.00usd with EXIT IFP shocks

Mtn. Tamer Component Details
Coupling Adjustment
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The new coupling adjustment is the most innovative feature of this suspension. We have added an infinite coupling control adjustment knob that can be adjusted anywhere from no coupling at all to a max of 80%. This means that the back arm can mechanically pull the front arm down 80% of its travel or anything in-between. This style of adjuster and range of adjustment has never been successfully engineered on a mountain sled suspension. It is so simple! To adjust, you turn the knob with your fingers and the adjuster threads in or out to add or remove coupling. With this we are able to eliminate some adjustments that were previously needed to make the suspension handle properly.
With the ability to adjust on the fly from one extreme to the other, you don’t need to settle for a single point between not enough and too much, good for hill climbing and bad for boondocking or vice versa. Now you can just back off the coupling adjuster for playing around hitting jumps, popping wheels and general boondocking without the heavy ski pressure that a coupled skid has. Then when you get to some big hills and you want to high mark, turn the coupling adjuster knob in and climb with total control.

Ride Quality
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We have achieved a much smoother ride quality with the new design through a combination of several factors. We have created new mounting positions for the back shock. With this the suspension has a much more progressive compression rate. This means that the suspension is soft and buoyant at the top of the stroke and as the suspension travels downward, the spring rate builds at an even rate. This continues all the way to the point that the shock starts to compress the jounce bumper that is located on the shaft. At this point the suspension ramps up the spring rate which makes it extremely bottom out resistant before it hits the rubber bottom out pad on the slide rail. This making the suspension much more user friendly for all size people and rider types without the use of large over load springs or high air pressure.
The front arm has also been re-designed to have a lineal compression rate that has a high pre load pressure giving a long mountain sled light but positive ski pressure. With this lineal rate the front end will travel upward easier when the suspension couples. It also makes the front arm ride much smoother. In fact it is so smooth that you cannot feel it move up and down as it goes through the bumps. The combination of these 2 things makes the suspension feel like it has an endless amount of travel.
Along with the design changes of the new Mtn. Tamer we have an all new line up of shocks to choose from. The list includes 4 new and exciting options. The standard and most affordable shocks are EXIT XO IFP shock by Zbroz racing. Also available as an upgrade is EXIT's adjustable X1 remote reservoir rear track shock.
Our new Fox Racing Shox line up consist of a Float-2 front track shock and either a Float Evol or a Float Evol-X with adjustable dampening on the back. These new Fox Shocks have all new bleed shim piston technology. You can see more details about these shocks on our Shock Details Page.

Stiction Reduction
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One of our main focuses with the new design was to reduce the amount of stiction in all the moving parts. "Stiction" is the amount of friction that is formed between 2 parts each time the parts stop and starts moving. We have achieved this with a combination of a few things. First is to hard anodize all the aluminum cross shafts, giving them a hard bearing like surface so that they turn much smoother in the arm bushings when under pressure
We have also reengineered our back arm slide mechanism. It has a top half and bottom half that are CNC machined from billet aluminum instead of a left and right side bottom and welded steel top like the previous model. With it being built this way and the fact that no welding has been done to it, the assembly is much more accurate and has no play or side-to-side movement in any of the parts. We have also made the slide unit longer and sealed it with internal O-rings. This will keep the grease inside and prevent dirt and grime from getting in.
With the combination of all of these things the suspension is much more responsive and moves more freely, making a more precision ride quality. This is just one way that we have upped the quality standard of aftermarket suspensions.

Arm Construction and Design
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The arms have been re-engineered for 1 main reason, New Suspension Technology. The tube sections of the arms are constructed from various diameters and thicknesses of 4130 chrome molly steel. The arms have bent side tubes and use a new style of weld-in gusset system that makes the arm much stronger and gives them a custom look. The side tubes on the back arm are farther apart than our previous model to provide more clearance for larger diameter shock springs that are lighter because they have fewer coils.
The back arm attaches to the new CNC machined billet aluminum slide mechanism with a slip yoke and fastening bolts. The 2 halves of the slide mechanism can move in and out making the arm expand and contract with a smooth precision machine tolerance. This acts like your rear scissor arm on the stock suspension. But the use of a slide mechanism allows a wide range of coupling without the need of equal length arms.
The bottom half of the slide mechanism is the most unique part of the new Mtn. Tamer design. It does not have a cross shaft where it bolts to the rails. It has machined ears that stick out with internal mounting collars that the arm pivots on. It was built this way so that we could mount our new infinite coupling control adjuster. When the slide mechanism moves downward and hits the adjuster, it couples. At this point the entire suspension moves in one synchronized motion giving you controlled ski lift.

Cross Shafts and Bushings
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The new Mtn. Tamer still uses high strength Delrin plastic bushings that we custom make in house on our CNC machines. What has changed is that we now hard anodize all cross shafts throughout the entire skid (hard anodizing is a coating that makes a very hard bearing type surface for the bushing to ride on). Hard anodizing will make all the moving parts move more freely and last indefinitely with zero wear forming.
Have you ever noticed the black/gray nasty grease coming out of the ends of the moving parts on your suspension? That is aluminum that wears off the cross shafts, mucks up the grease and makes a metal looking paste that gums up the suspension making it squeak. Then when you re-grease your skid it pumps in more nasty grease because the entire system is now contaminated. Over time this will wear out your suspension and your sled will start to feel like a clunker. This will not happen with the new Mtn. Tamer, if you pump in purple grease at the beginning of the season you will still have clean purple grease at the end of the season.

Limiter Strap
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What could we have possibly done to make the limiter strap better you ask? Well, we have made a few small changes that add up to a big improvement. The new system includes a single larger and wider limiter strap located off to the side of the shock similar to what a few of the OEM’s are now doing.
On the lower end of the strap where it attaches to the cross shaft we have installed a bushing that the strap snugly fits around so that the strap will freely rotate on the shaft without walking off to the side and sticking or hanging up in the wrong position. With this design the strap bends and folds the same direction every time the suspension moves. This prevents binding caused by the 2 ends of the strap hitting each other because they are unable to rotate properly.
Another thing we have done is put fewer adjustment holes in the strap. It now has only 4 coarse adjustments. We are able to do this because our new adjust on the fly coupling system allows this suspension to be much more tune-able without the need for a lot of confusing limiter strap adjustments. To top it off we have use larger 3/8" bolts in the strap with CNC machined aluminum washers on each side to secure the 2 ends of the strap. With this you now only need one wrench size for all nuts and bolts on the entire suspension (9/16" wrench).

Mtn. Tamer Suspension Kit Contents
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• Front and back arm assemblies
• Shock option of choice
• Limiter strap assembly
• All cross shafts
• Nuts, bolts and washers for entire skid
• Slide rail fit kits or custom rails are needed to install (Sold separately).

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Fit Kits
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You have 2 options for mounting a Mtn. Tamer suspension; you can buy custom slide rails or use a fit kit on the stock rails. The use of a fit kit is the most affordable way to install the suspension onto your sled (fit kit price $50.00usd). The fit kit consists of a set of billet aluminum brackets that adapts the Mtn. Tamer back arm to the factory slide rails. The fit kits are designed for each make and model of sled. The fit kit brackets align into existing holes in the rails; however there will be some additional holes that will need to be drilled for added mounting strength. (Note: Custom rails are required for the Ski-Doo XP because no fit kit is available)
Fit Kits Include: 2 rail mounting brackets, Shock mounting brackets (if needed), Hardware

Custom Rails
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Timbersled offers a full line-up of custom slide rails designed and built for the Mtn. Tamer suspension. They will not fit the stock suspension parts. The rails are manufactured by Ice Age / BB Diversified, the same company that builds the OEM rails for Polaris Industries. The rails are custom made for Timbersled and are model specific for every sled make and model. We inventory these rails to fit rail lengths from 144 thru 174. If you are in need of a length that we do not carry, we can have them custom made for no additional cost. We also offer the service to have your rails powder coated most any color for an added cost of $75.00usd. We recommend powder coating the rails because it gives your suspension a more custom look, and it sheds snow much better than raw aluminum. The most common color is black.
The most frequent question we get is “what is the advantage of using the custom rails over the stock rails?”

• Custom rails do not have a kick up on the back of the rail that is commonly found on OEM rails. This is an advantage for high HP sleds to keep the skis down for added control.
• You will be able to keep your stock skid complete, this way you will be able to sell your stock skid or put it back in your sled when you sell it.
• The custom rails provide a very clean and custom look.
• They run 8" wheels and use either a stock Polaris, Ski-Doo or Arctic Cat axle assembly. If you are buying for one of these brands you can use the stock system. If you have a Yamaha, then an axle and wheel kit will need to be purchased. We sell these kits starting at $150.00usd.

Rail Kits Include: 2 slide rails, Hi-fax, Rail caps, Rubber bottom out bumpers, Track adjusters.

 

[christopher]

.I encourage you to go to our web site and take the time to read through it to learn more about our new suspension and watch our new tech video. It will better educate you about suspensions and how they work so that you can see it with your own eyes.

The video did in fact help quite a bit in understanding what you were trying to explain in text.

But we have to get you a lapel mic for the next video!!

 

[mtnmodviper]

I have used both the mtn tamer and the KMOD on my MCX-270 nytro. I now use the mtn tamer on my stock nytro and the KMOD on my turbo.
While both companies have great customer service, I prefer the KMOD on my turbo nytro because:

1. It rides great.
2. It can be adjusted to keep the skis down better, giving me confidence to climb steeper, more challenging hills.
3. It is built strong, so I've never missed a weekend of riding while waiting for replacement parts to arrive.

 

[TNytro162]

I have used both the mtn tamer and the KMOD on my MCX-270 nytro. I now use the mtn tamer on my stock nytro and the KMOD on my turbo.
While both companies have great customer service, I prefer the KMOD on my turbo nytro because:

1. It rides great.
2. It can be adjusted to keep the skis down better, giving me confidence to climb steeper, more challenging hills.
3. It is built strong, so I've never missed a weekend of riding while waiting for replacement parts to arrive.

mtnmodviper I am hopfully getting a MCX 240 kit and I wanted to know did the Kmod also do good in the powder?? thannks,

 

[WyoBoy1000]

Kmod on the tm8 makes it feel like it lifts the whole sled rather than the skis, so when you hit boost it lifts and jumps on the snow in the pow.

There seems to be bigger differences between the kmod and t-sled than I first thought. t-sled--- 0-80% coupled, shorter rear arm. Kmod ??-100% coupling, equal length arm. There might be a place for each of them for different styles, but definitely a big difference.

We need a suspension demo day with all the makers, then we just need all different snow conditions to test it all, lol