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What's Happening To Big Bores?

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Yes, I agree that NOS will give you the same power, but.....

1)when the bottle runs out, you're back to square 1. Run the hills all day on an 1050 cc BB, you'd need 20 bottles of NOS on an 800 to do the same thing, you can't carry enough NOS with you to equal the performance over the long haul, maybe to make the last 50 feet on the hill, or for the extra burst of track speed, but once you're out, the guy with the big bore is gonna leave you behind

2)big bores (without NOS) make more power from idle to max RPM, not just on the button. Making more HP across the board has so many more benefits IMO. Being able to clutch for one powerband vs. for stock and then on NOS is far easier, you will always have some compromise in clutching/gearing when running NOS, on any sled, big bore or stock but if we are just comparing big bore no NOS to stock sled with NOS, the win goes to big bore in my book. Not knocking any stockers with NOS, I agree that it is a good system if what you are looking for is a simple, instantaneous power increase and the cost is great for the power you get. Cost wise, big bores are more, yes, but your power supply is not limited. Also, the development time of a big bore is expensive, a company needs to recuperate the development costs, higher prices on the big bores, as stated, this makes NOS look really attractive when you can have the same power (even for a short time) with very low input costs. Also, NOS can be moved from sled to sled easily, I would imagine its hard to get big bore Ski Doo jugs to fit on a Yamaha bottom end...:)

Likewise we can't start comparing BB's and turbo's in terms of costs, because the win goes to turbo's hands down. Cost may be more yes, but as stated, turn the dial up at elevation, and you have just as much HP as at sea level, you can't do that with the BB. If we are discussing why big bores are disappearing, yes, both reliable (keep in mind that I'm saying "reliable" in terms of modern performance with EFI and four strokes included) turbo power and NOS are probably contributing factors to the presence of less big bores.

Now, if you had a BB with a turbo and NOS............:)
 
Don't even know how to jump into this party except to say that I have been very pleased with my BB Cutler Dragon 1000 and I addiitonally have a 162 M7 w/can and adj weights (nothing more) and an M7 153, I can speak from the pleasure from having good friends get me into this sport from desert racing, and insisted in helping me get the right equip. The efficiency factor is the ONLY thing IMHO that will pull a BB from a turbo from NOS. I am at MAYBE 165hp (at altitude) and my 1000 rails, hassle free EFI hit the hills and pick what you want, that being said (BTW Adrenaline Addict I still can't get over my Elko trip last month with the locals!!!!! What a farking blast man, Gary is off the hook) I had the treat of racing turbos and NOS equipped and the difference is really coming from the torque to keep the track spinning, I debated for months on turbo vs asperated and (obviously) opted for the asperated, while at Castle Peak last weekend raced a guy on a T1000 and he pulled away after 2/3 hill when it FINALLY spooled the turbo enough to take me. I am all for BB and the Cat products have awesome platforms to build from. My M7 ltd will go about 90% of the places where my 1000 will go, but when you need it most you can sure tell the difference from a well tuned BB.
 
I was going to buy an 1160 Sever for my 03 1m 900 but when I saw Hell Boy at the Edmonton snow show and did the research I decided to try an RX1 and put an Alpine kit on it. I have had a big bore and saw a few big bores and they are neat and work well but I like the turbo's and if not a turbo the modded stock bore sleds work good enough. Its about how much fun you can have for me, some days my 800 is more fun than my RX1 .
 
King o the Hill,
The Ruby's are a blast and those Arctic Cat BB's sure do run. Are you guys planning another ride this way before the snow turns into a brick? I really enjoy those rides when a bunch of sledheads get together, that's my kind of fun. Tony mentioned he was going to make an effort to make it over here for one more ride.
 
Outdated , I guess, but I hate to see them go....

Turbo Yamis rule the big power now. Lots of guys are used to the great handeling of the new M's. XP's and D's.
There is something lost though. The big bore mod two strokes have a power burst that most people havn't even felt. It will be a shame if the era dies while guys think a M-1000 feels powerful. Because it doesn't compared to some of the sleds gone by.

Owen
 
This is a great discussion, was making me think about it last night, I kinda came up with this....
Another reason I think we are seeing some of the decline in 2 stroke BB's is that in order to meet the new regs, manufacturers are making the new sleds more sophisticated, which means higher development costs. I would be interested to know what it would roughly cost to develop a BB for one of the new "fuel friendly" 600 class sleds and what time is involved for a company like RKT, Crank Shop, Engine Tech etc. How much additional training do their staff need (new training on all the new electronics, computer reading systems, fuel mapping/re-curve development time, component development, etc) that all would have to be recovered in the cost of the kit? Anybody want to take a guess or know roughly? Be interesting to know.

We will always have big bores, its just a matter of what we are boring. While the turbo is all the rage, I think we will see people boring 4 stroke blocks in the "not so distant" future (in commercial form). Maybe some already are?
 
Turbo Yamis rule the big power now. Lots of guys are used to the great handeling of the new M's. XP's and D's.
There is something lost though. The big bore mod two strokes have a power burst that most people havn't even felt. It will be a shame if the era dies while guys think a M-1000 feels powerful. Because it doesn't compared to some of the sleds gone by.

Owen

I agree on the power burst (or just torque) of the BB 2strokes. My turbo hits hard after its lit but nailing it from a dead stop and its NOTHING compared to the grunt of the 1200! which has the power anytime you want it!

1200wc, most reliable NA HP dollar for dollar PERIOD! 240hp pump gas all day long!!!!!!
 
This is a great discussion, was making me think about it last night, I kinda came up with this....
Another reason I think we are seeing some of the decline in 2 stroke BB's is that in order to meet the new regs, manufacturers are making the new sleds more sophisticated, which means higher development costs. I would be interested to know what it would roughly cost to develop a BB for one of the new "fuel friendly" 600 class sleds and what time is involved for a company like RKT, Crank Shop, Engine Tech etc. How much additional training do their staff need (new training on all the new electronics, computer reading systems, fuel mapping/re-curve development time, component development, etc) that all would have to be recovered in the cost of the kit? Anybody want to take a guess or know roughly? Be interesting to know.

We will always have big bores, its just a matter of what we are boring. While the turbo is all the rage, I think we will see people boring 4 stroke blocks in the "not so distant" future (in commercial form). Maybe some already are?


look at say, diesel performance. Same thing, emmissions extremely tightend down the last 10 years or so and every 3 years its being cut in half! but still some of the most powerful engines are being built off of these newer designed "more sophistocated" engines because of the technology intergrated in them!

as for the commercial form 4 stoke engines, look at what fastrax/fantom is doing with the rotary motors!!!:D
 
:)I recently purchased a clean one owner mod (Another UBR 900) VE that is just plain fun to ride. This sled is equipped with a rolled case combined with a 2.5" Polaris 151 and it carries the front end from here to eternity and back. I might have to plant that front end a bit before I end up a statistic. I have about a half dozen rides on it and I'm still smiling from last weekend. The big hook up and launch are what make it such a hoot. The instantaneous hit makes it a great sled to jump and correct in mid air when needed. It's simply a joy to ride (sort of a handfull actually, but fun) I hope motors such as Carls Cycles 860 give the same feel. I have a friend who is going to have one built for next season. It's good to see that there's still a few companies and dealers pushing the performance envelope for those of us who desire to have have a little more steam than thy friend. The following pictures are an example of the bargains available out there if you're willing to ride nearly new iron that's only a few years old. 2005 VE, Walker Evans Remote Reservoir Shocks, Rolled Chaincase w/ 2.5" Track, UBR 900 w/Twins, SLP Straightline Skis, Boondocker Nos, Boss Seat, Proven Tested Clutching, Resistor Installed To Run Hoodless, Vented Hood, Vertical Escape Lightweight Chromoly Trailing Arms, Not One Single Scratch. Roughly $22,000 out the door, purchased for $7,500 from a great friend. These are the sleds that people are having trouble selling.:):confused: I believe one reason for selling older mods is the worry of parts availability, hopefully Fastrax will produce some cylinders eventually just in case a guy needs one.
castlebest.jpg

lamoillelakejumpenh.jpg

lamoillelakeflightenh.jpg
 
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I'll bring my camera Jay, hopefully the sun will be out. I'll pick you up around 9:00 AM. You're dads a little wounded from your ride the other day huh!! The snow might be a little heavy but I bet it's still going to be soft. Should be a great ride!! Pray for sunshine!! This 2.5" track really likes heavy snow.
 
I'll bring my camera Jay, hopefully the sun will be out. I'll pick you up around 9:00 AM. You're dads a little wounded from your ride the other day huh!! The snow might be a little heavy but I bet it's still going to be soft. Should be a great ride!! Pray for sunshine!! This 2.5" track really likes heavy snow.

Yeah those bumps really got him! (Me to)! :o Sounds good. I bet it's set up real nice! :D
 
King o the Hill,
The Ruby's are a blast and those Arctic Cat BB's sure do run. Are you guys planning another ride this way before the snow turns into a brick? I really enjoy those rides when a bunch of sledheads get together, that's my kind of fun. Tony mentioned he was going to make an effort to make it over here for one more ride.

I would love to but got to coordinate with the Snoo master :D, I am sure that snow is burning fast....it will be interesting to see what is laid down next week and if there is any volume to it. It's not that far and I am sure I could find a call to make while I am up there:face-icon-small-win
 
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The reason guys are having trouble selling sleds like that is the chassis, not the motor. I was a huge Edge chassis fan, rode them from 2002 until this year when I spent a lot of time on an M Cat and IQ Polaris, both stock 700's. I have to say that I misss the pull of my lightly modded 800 compared to the stock 700's but I would NEVER go back now. There is no comparison for me, I have ridden them back to back and the new chassis make way more sense to me.

Of course I would rather rip through the trees than have the hi-mark, so the nimble chassis is better for my style than a wicked arm puller. That said, I have seen M Cats with Cutler 1000's and I think that would be a hoot, even an IQ 900 with a Carls 975 and some suspension updates would be cool.

I'm not going to pop for new $10,000 sled PLUS a new $5000 motor though. I'll wait and buy one used like you have. I just won't buy one in an old chassis anymore, so until the mods in the new chassis get a little older and show up used, I prefer a stock new chassis to a powerhouse in and old style.
 
A friend of mine (used to be a friend) snapped that photo just before I ran him over:eek: Cameraman is a dangerous job, false sense of security behind the lens. He's healing very well.
 
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