What’d you think of trunp’s ideas to curb school shootings

[jerrydecoy]

What’d you think of trunp’s ideas to curb school shootings

Might as well beat a dead horse!!! I’m sure most of you have seen tonight’s news. What’s the general consensus on trump’s comments while visiting with the shooting victims families??
As most know I’m ok with allowing concealed carry by the teachers or admin that are willing to participate. I’m on the fence about raising the age limit to 21 to buy a semi-auto.... or any rifle/shotgun. We ask an 18y.o. To grab a gun and defend the country but you can’t defend defend your home when you
Come home??? The NRA is already saying “no way” . Maybe it would save some lives? Trump is gonna try and change something... will it be enough???

 

[Pro-8250]

Why should our kids be afraid to go to school? Can someone answer me that? I remember when I was a kid in early grade school going through drills and going down into the basement of the school and sitting on the floor, cross legged and head down and hands over our heads because of the threat of a nuclear strike by Russia. Well nothing ever came of it, but these kids today are living a real different life situation that is going on all around them all of the time. Is this the world we want to live in? But yeah, lets arm teachers. And while we are at it lets arm doctors, nurses, librarians, fast food workers, school bus drivers, valet attendants, Walmart greeters, car salesmen, and all construction workers. I am a gun owner as is my son. I don't know a perfect solution, but I am sick of this senseless slaughter time and time again!
But time and time again I hear, guns don't kill people kill people. Fair enough! I can't argue that. So we should have a zero problem with North Korea having nukes, because nukes don't kill people, people kill people.
Yes, maybe I am overboard but I am F***king sick of it.
On a final note, those kids in Florida have more balls than most of our politicians, and frankly? Most of us!

 

[inspector01]

This is what happens when you have a trained, armed sheriffs deputy on duty as school resource officer, making over $75k a year to protect students, at the site of a school shooting: you get a good description of the shooter while the deputy hides outside, and thinks they did a great job.

https://nypost.com/2018/02/22/deputy-who-didnt-stop-florida-shooting-thinks-he-did-a-good-job/

And teachers are going to somehow do a better job?

 

[jerrydecoy]

This is what happens when you have a trained, armed sheriffs deputy on duty as school resource officer, making over $75k a year to protect students, at the site of a school shooting: you get a good description of the shooter while the deputy hides outside, and thinks they did a great job.

https://nypost.com/2018/02/22/deputy-who-didnt-stop-florida-shooting-thinks-he-did-a-good-job/

And teachers are going to somehow do a better job?

Are you saying that all resource officers would react in the same manner? This one didn’t!!!


https://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/gudger.asp

 

[inspector01]

Are you saying that all resource officers would react in the same manner? This one didn’t!!!


https://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/gudger.asp

Where did I say that?

I'm saying that I doubt arming untrained teachers making ~$35k a year to TEACH kids is not a reasonable way to protect kids when someone paid over twice as much for the sole purpose of protecting the kids did **** all.

 

[jerrydecoy]

Where did I say that?

I'm saying that I doubt arming untrained teachers making ~$35k a year to TEACH kids is not a reasonable way to protect kids when someone paid over twice as much for the sole purpose of protecting the kids did **** all.

You said “ this is what happens when a trained, armed sheriffs Deputy is On duty as a school resource officer at the site of a school shooting “ I don’t know about you but that reads that this is what happens when a armed cop is at a school when a shooting happens. I provided you an example showing that is not always the case!!!

 

[James T Kirk]

Does anyone actually think that “proper” training would say that a single armed teacher (or cop for that matter) is supposed to run into a crowded room full of kids and an active shooter and start emptying clips in the general direction of the shooter and just hope that they don’t hit a bunch of kids in the process?

Or that a couple days of training is gonna get a “gun enthusiast” teacher ready to turn into Chuck Norris that situation and not kill a bunch more kids in the process?

 

[DUKHTR3]

We need some kinda protection for our kids. I do carry concealed and if I was a teacher I would like to be able to carry. Now when I go pick my kids up from school I am not even suppose to have a gun in my truck let alone on myself. I am not saying this is for large schools with 1000s of kids but here in SD I think it could work here.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

 

[jerrydecoy]

Does anyone actually think that “proper” training would say that a single armed teacher (or cop for that matter) is supposed to run into a crowded room full of kids and an active shooter and start emptying clips in the general direction of the shooter and just hope that they don’t hit a bunch of kids in the process?

Or that a couple days of training is gonna get a “gun enthusiast” teacher ready to turn into Chuck Norris that situation and not kill a bunch more kids in the process?

I don’t think anyone knows what the training would look like if this happened and no... I don’t think anybody is going to turn into chuck Norris! It would obviously be voluntary and I suspect most teachers that would be willing to participate would be gun owners already. The “shooting into a crowd” is generalizing it a bit. I wouldn’t think the random spray of bullets would happen but is there risk of an innocent student being killed? Sure there is. That brings up the arguement of... is losing 1 to save multiple worth it. That’s a worthy conversation. It’s what kept us from killing bin laden and saving hundreds or maybe even thousands of lives while Clinton was in office!!! This is not a new idea. Utah has had it for a while. While I don’t think the known presence of guns will stop all shootings. I think it could definitely deter a shooting!

 

[James T Kirk]

I don’t think anyone knows what the training would look like if this happened and no... I don’t think anybody is going to turn into chuck Norris! It would obviously be voluntary and I suspect most teachers that would be willing to participate would be gun owners already. The “shooting into a crowd” is generalizing it a bit. I wouldn’t think the random spray of bullets would happen but is there risk of an innocent student being killed? Sure there is. That brings up the arguement of... is losing 1 to save multiple worth it. That’s a worthy conversation. It’s what kept us from killing bin laden and saving probably hundreds of lives while Clinton was in office!!! This is not a new idea. Utah has had it for a while. While I don’t think the known presence of guns will stop all shootings. I think it could definitely deter a shooting!

The shooter was an ex student and very likely knew that there was an armed guard at the school. The vast majority of these guys shoot themselves after they kill a bunch anyway, it’s not like any of em really have an escape plan-this guy went for lunch after or something. Knowing there are guns on site likely has nothing to do with deterring what is essentially a suicide attack. The key flaw in your argument that the knowledge that there are guns on site will deter is the assumption that anyone deciding to shoot up a school is capable of rational thought and actually expects to escape.

That guard is getting crucified for not charging in-i wouldn’t be surprised if he actually was following protocol and they need a scapegoat. how do you think he would be treated if he ran in there, missed the gunman and shot a few kids (especially if that’s against protocol-I’m not claiming to know what the correct protocol is but I bet it doesn’t allow much chance for kids getting shot by the cops)?

 

[Jaynelson]

I think it's a feel-good thing for some, I don't think you'll get the majority of teacher to participate and/or achieve a level of confidence to actually be of use in such a situation (i.e. the sheriff's deputy in this case). So ultimately it's not going to do much. The U.S. already has TONS of guns and gun carries, and yet remains a hot bed for mass shootings of all variety....if the approach of "more guns" was the answer, shouldn't it already be working to some extent?

The fundamental issue is that the shooter likely isn't afraid to be killed (planning on it most times it seems)...whereas the teacher/security guard is. Someone with nothing to lose always has a distinct advantage.

 

[jerrydecoy]

The shooter was an ex student and very likely knew that there was an armed guard at the school. The vast majority of these guys shoot themselves after they kill a bunch anyway, it’s not like any of em really have an escape plan-this guy went for lunch after or something. Knowing there are guns on site likely has nothing to do with deterring what is essentially a suicide attack. The key flaw in your argument that the knowledge that there are guns on site will deter is the assumption that anyone deciding to shoot up a school is capable of rational thought and actually expects to escape.

That guard is getting crucified for not charging in-i wouldn’t be surprised if he actually was following protocol and they need a scapegoat. how do you think he would be treated if he ran in there, missed the gunman and shot a few kids (especially if that’s against protocol-I’m not claiming to know what the correct protocol is but I bet it doesn’t allow much chance for kids getting shot by the cops)?

I have no doubt he knew there was a armed officer in the school and I also never said that would stop all shootings. Most of all our mass shootings happen in gun free zones or at least places where you wouldn’t expect guns to be present. I’m assuming you see no positive that can come from armed teachers / officers inside the schools?

 

[jerrydecoy]

I think it's a feel-good thing for some, I don't think you'll get the majority of teacher to participate and/or achieve a level of confidence to actually be of use in such a situation (i.e. the sheriff's deputy in this case). So ultimately it's not going to do much. The U.S. already has TONS of guns and gun carries, and yet remains a hot bed for mass shootings of all variety....if the approach of "more guns" was the answer, shouldn't it already be working to some extent?

The fundamental issue is that the shooter likely isn't afraid to be killed (planning on it most times it seems)...whereas the teacher/security guard is. Someone with nothing to lose always has a distinct advantage.

You’re using a deputy as an example that behaved in a way that is not the normal in a crisis situation. If these gunman are not afraid
To die then maybe a gun or two inside a school could help sped that process up. Can you give me facts that having armed people in a school isn’t worth the risk it brings along with it? As I said above... where are most of these shootings happening? We do have tons of guns but not where this sort of thing is going on!

 

[jerrydecoy]

Did either one of you(jtk or jaynelson) Read the story that I posted the link to above? had that officer not had a gun inside that school do you think people would have died?

 

[James T Kirk]

I have no doubt he knew there was a armed officer in the school and I also never said that would stop all shootings. Most of all our mass shootings happen in gun free zones or at least places where you wouldn’t expect guns to be present. I’m assuming you see no positive that can come from armed teachers / officers inside the schools?

I’d be amazed that someplace being a “gun free” zone has any effect on it. Mass shootings happen in theatres, churches, malls, nightclubs , concerts etc too. As jay said, guns are everywhere, shootings are increasing, more guns aren’t likely going to have much effect. How many people that concealed carry actually respect the gun free zone signs anyway?

I do think having a cop at a school isn’t a bad thing, but I bet if you looked into it their role in this situation is to provide intelligence to the swat team and in the unlikely event they get a clean shot to take it.

 

[jerrydecoy]

I’d be amazed that someplace being a “gun free” zone has any effect on it. Mass shootings happen in theatres, churches, malls, nightclubs , concerts etc too. As jay said, guns are everywhere, shootings are increasing, more guns aren’t likely going to have much effect. How many people that concealed carry actually respect the gun free zone signs anyway?

I do think having a cop at a school isn’t a bad thing, but I bet if you looked into it their role in this situation is to provide intelligence to the swat team and in the unlikely event they get a clean shot to take it.

I’ll ask again if you read the story above? Do you think she saved lives? Did the citizen in Sutherland springs save lives with his gun?

 

[James T Kirk]

I’ll ask again if you read the story above? Do you think she saved lives? Did the citizen in Sutherland springs save lives with his gun?

I very very clearly said that it’s not a bad idea to have an armed cop there, but to think of it as the solution or as a way to prevent people from attempting these actions is not sensible. It is effective in the situation described above-very different than a guy with an AR spraying bullets.

Until the USA gets their healthcare sorted and can actually provide mental health services for its people this is not gonna stop. You guys should be choked that the guy who promised to fix health care on day 1 has conveniently forgotten about it lately...

Getting back to the premise of this thread, Donny’s ideas aren’t gonna do anything. He will spout off a bunch of stuff about arming teachers and background checks while he keeps sucking the NRA’s d!ck, and pretty soon it’ll all get swept under the rug for the next issue.

 

[bholmlate]

Jerry the answer is yes she possibly saved lives and i mean "POSSIBLY". After reading the story my first thought was the kid never intended to shoot anyone for the simple fact that he did not go in with guns blazing. His intention was probably to scare people and feel powerful because most people freak when a gun is pulled out and/or possibly comment "suicide by cop" which happens a lot. He also did not have an assault weapon which in this case her gun matched his gun. We had a case of an Mentally ill Vet go into a IHOP and kill four marines having breakfast with an assault weapon. A bystander who was carrying a pistol approached the scene but once he heard automatic fire he turned and ran because he knew it was suicide confronting anyone with automatic rifle of any kind with a pistol. As we saw with the latest shooting where the person who's job is was to protect kids was out gunned. We can armchair this all we want but the human fight or flight will dictate your actions when put into any situation regardless of how tough you think you are behind a keyboard. I am using "You" meaning any one of us. And with Trump you have to remember he is master of manipulating the media. All his tallk about anything is just that Talk. He knows dam well that nothing will ever get past congress inability to do the right thing. However he looks great because he said he would do something and will be able to shift blame at some future point to everyone else. He will never pursue anything that doesn't benefit him or his family. Nothing will get done with thiis one either if nothing ever happend with sandy hook with little kids being slaughtered nothing will ever change in this country other then frequency of these type of shootings

 

[Jaynelson]

You’re using a deputy as an example that behaved in a way that is not the normal in a crisis situation. If these gunman are not afraid
To die then maybe a gun or two inside a school could help sped that process up. Can you give me facts that having armed people in a school isn’t worth the risk it brings along with it? As I said above... where are most of these shootings happening? We do have tons of guns but not where this sort of thing is going on!

Honestly I did enough back and forth on this to ascertain that our philosophy's on this are different. I'm not going to convince you more guns isn't the answer any more than you're going to convince me the opposite. I surely hope (and expect) that with the shear number of guns, owners, carriers, security guards, etc in the U.S. that there are many stories of guns being used to stop a variety of crimes - it would stand to logic. Has it made US a safer place thus far? Doesn't appear so at this time. Fight fire with fire works in both directions.

So ....why haven't armed teachers and armed guards already been implemented already? Because it's an ugly solution, and a very reactive one. Rarely is a reactive solution the best - you are attempting to catch the problem at the last possible opportunity, and aren't doing anything to reduce the number of "attempts." You are also relying on average people to commit heroic acts - such as the case in this example, that can be asking too much of a person when it actually happens. Having a gun fight against someone who wants to die is about the gnarliest thing I can imagine....I know people don't want to hear it but...." it's not the movies." I get the logic, and I'm not going to say it won't hold any water, or work out in some situations....I guess it's just sad if that's the best solution on the table.

 

[jerrydecoy]

Jerry the answer is yes she possibly saved lives and i mean "POSSIBLY". After reading the story my first thought was the kid never intended to shoot anyone for the simple fact that he did not go in with guns blazing. His intention was probably to scare people and feel powerful because most people freak when a gun is pulled out and/or possibly comment "suicide by cop" which happens a lot. He also did not have an assault weapon which in this case her gun matched his gun. We had a case of an Mentally ill Vet go into a IHOP and kill four marines having breakfast with an assault weapon. A bystander who was carrying a pistol approached the scene but once he heard automatic fire he turned and ran because he knew it was suicide confronting anyone with automatic rifle of any kind with a pistol. As we saw with the latest shooting where the person who's job is was to protect kids was out gunned. We can armchair this all we want but the human fight or flight will dictate your actions when put into any situation regardless of how tough you think you are behind a keyboard. I am using "You" meaning any one of us. And with Trump you have to remember he is master of manipulating the media. All his tallk about anything is just that Talk. He knows dam well that nothing will ever get past congress inability to do the right thing. However he looks great because he said he would do something and will be able to shift blame at some future point to everyone else. He will never pursue anything that doesn't benefit him or his family. Nothing will get done with thiis one either if nothing ever happend with sandy hook with little kids being slaughtered nothing will ever change in this country other then frequency of these type of shootings

What do you mean “kid”??? Did you really read the story? It was a 62 year old guy! Lol.. no he didn’t have an assault weapon and correct me if I’m wrong but no school shooter has!