Warning ...some may find this offencive .....

[phatty]

To Phatty, you are taking my view to a very extreme level. I do that in my work setting, not everyday life. Would i steal some ones truck? of coarse not. And that stuff is so common in my workplace that is doesnt stick out like you think it would. I dont wake up everyday and think "i cant wait to **** someone over today!" My original post was to say that ive done it, and it happens. You make it sound like my soul purpose of my job is to screw people. have you worked in the Senate? Didnt think so, so would you know what its like? doubtful. People do it, and people get over it, just as i have. Its not like me ripping off somones review of a paper is instantly gonna get me a 5k raise and make me the senators right hand man. Its all going to add up and eventually get me a higher position. So your probably wondering if it only helps a little why screw someone so much for it? Well i really doesnt that much. Yes it going to piss someone off, but its not the end of the world. Do you think that i started the whole idea of it? My first month on the job i got ripped a new one, plenty of my work has been ripped off to man...Yes it pissed me off but i didnt go ***** to my boss, instead i got even....

i like that you point out that i took it to the extreme... where does one draw the line then? I just felt from the posts i was reading that you do not have a line, but obviously on some level you have a moral compass of knowing what is right and wrong, albeit you choose to ignore that in your work environment. Do i approve of what you do at your work? Absolutely not (not that you care). Does it mean i have a distaste for you? absolutely not, i may not approve of your actions in the work place, however i do understand that you are a person with goals, desires, dreams who is capable of great things. Plus you wouldn't have any friends or family at all if you treated them like you do people at work... and i am willing to bet that there are a lot of people who care a lot about you and vice versa

anyhow my next point:
a little bit over time adds up. If your consistently stealing (my word, you might use the word borrow or take) someone else's work, then in effect you are taking from their future (be it in money, raises, job advancement, whatever), so they in turn must rob someone else's future. Collusion... escalating collusion...

 

[rasp112]

big 10?? thats a collegiate conferance isnt it???

It is about time for march madness... WHy do think this thread is so hot right now..

 

[cmantle1]

i like that you point out that i took it to the extreme... where does one draw the line then? I just felt from the posts i was reading that you do not have a line, but obviously on some level you have a moral compass of knowing what is right and wrong, albeit you choose to ignore that in your work environment. Do i approve of what you do at your work? Absolutely not (not that you care). Does it mean i have a distaste for you? absolutely not, i may not approve of your actions in the work place, however i do understand that you are a person with goals, desires, dreams who is capable of great things. Plus you wouldn't have any friends or family at all if you treated them like you do people at work... and i am willing to bet that there are a lot of people who care a lot about you and vice versa

anyhow my next point:
a little bit over time adds up. If your consistently stealing (my word, you might use the word borrow or take) someone else's work, then in effect you are taking from their future (be it in money, raises, job advancement, whatever), so they in turn must rob someone else's future. Collusion... escalating collusion...

the line is flexible, some people do obnoxious $hit (see other post about how people i work with make me look like a wimp). Personally, i have yet to go past stealing reviews and giving people i dont like false information and that sort of thing. So thats my line, but that all changes from time to time. I hope that makes sense.

And no one is consistently pulling this stuff. It happens every now and then. If it were to happen all the time then there would just be absolute chaos in the office. To be honest the people who get the most crap are young kids coming right out of law school (just like i am). I think i made the things we do sound a bit worse than they really are. Yes people steal, lie, cheat and all that stuff, but its not a huge deal. You hear about it every morning or at lunch, but life goes on. If anyone ever did something absolutley rediculous, (no example comes to mind), then there would be consequences.

 

[papafinger1]

Good to see you are all still hard at it...... Great read

 

[MTm7]

I am mormon and you probably guessed that from where i lived right?

My whole point is that evangelicals and mormons butt heads on this issue constantly.. And in my view we truly do believe the same thing we just say it different.. Contrary to what many think about the mormon church and outsiders tend to be experts on us for some reason. We dont believe that only our works alone save us.. We know that we could do all the good deeds in the world and without christ we are still short of the glory of god.. My point is in your original post. You said there is one way to find out a true church and that is if they teach you to do good works they are wrong.. And that is wrong.. Like i said earlier and you said it in your next post that good works come in somewhere.. Its part of the equation.. DO i think its the solution? No.. Christ is the solution. But how can he save us if we don't follow him..

Faith without works is dead.. So our works validate our faith.. they dont alone save us..

I think its interesting that we are disincluded from being christians from whatever website you shared..
Name of the church-- THe Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints
Kind of hard to miss but whatever

i hate to single you out but mormons and christians differ at a fundamental level. period! you say we butt heads.... well for good reason. i think it is funny that mormons take on Jesus is not who he claimed to be. mormonism is unequivocally polytheistic whereas the bible is monotheistic. mormonism veils there true belief with christian nomenclature and for the undiscerning is easy to be taken up. i have taken a hard look at mormonism documents and they no way square biblically. their scholastiscism,their appitude with the original languages, the ability to distinguish anthropomorhpic and metaphorical usage of terms is an atrocity. no scholar in their right mind would accept their practices for interpreting scripture. and what about this joseph smith who had an angel appear to him? well galatians 1:8 says, but even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. mormonism preaches a different gospel so you draw your own conlusion.


i wanted to add something in regards to the works salvation thing. you said, "but how can he save us if we dont follow him?" the act of justification is a legal declaration and you can never be more justified than at the moment that takes place. you are declared not guilty before God based on the imputation of christ's righteousness. so salvation is a finished product in the eyes of God. there is no following christ in order to be saved.

 

[skidoorulz]

the line is flexible, some people do obnoxious $hit (see other post about how people i work with make me look like a wimp). Personally, i have yet to go past stealing reviews and giving people i dont like false information and that sort of thing. So thats my line, but that all changes from time to time. I hope that makes sense.

And no one is consistently pulling this stuff. It happens every now and then. If it were to happen all the time then there would just be absolute chaos in the office. To be honest the people who get the most crap are young kids coming right out of law school (just like i am). I think i made the things we do sound a bit worse than they really are. Yes people steal, lie, cheat and all that stuff, but its not a huge deal. You hear about it every morning or at lunch, but life goes on. If anyone ever did something absolutley rediculous, (no example comes to mind), then there would be consequences.

This would be a great oppurtunity to say something about crooks and lawyers but I won't

 

[ice auger]

the auger will drill something here.....I attended church alot as a kids.....not so much in college.....and am back at it now.....by attending church your are reminded about whats important and what to live by.....I own my home but see that I am a renter here on earth....I try to put basic value on possissions....I can not take them with me!
Ice

 

[ice auger]

skidoo keep asking questions and look for answers.....awhile back I had issues with why God starves kids in Africa.....this is NOT heaven....they will be feed there....We are in the devils playground here....keep your eye on the prize!

 

[ice auger]

One more Mark 8:36 "what does it profit a person to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?"

 

[cmantle1]

One more Mark 8:36 "what does it profit a person to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?"

Profits a person greatly cause chances are they arent religious.....

 

[MTm7]

this setup against the backdrop of eternity.... very temporary. it will be gone as the dew before the noonday sun.

 

[ice auger]

I hear ya mt.....

 

[phatty]

i hate to single you out but mormons and christians differ at a fundamental level. period! you say we butt heads.... well for good reason. i think it is funny that mormons take on Jesus is not who he claimed to be. mormonism is unequivocally polytheistic whereas the bible is monotheistic. mormonism veils there true belief with christian nomenclature and for the undiscerning is easy to be taken up. i have taken a hard look at mormonism documents and they no way square biblically. their scholastiscism,their appitude with the original languages, the ability to distinguish anthropomorhpic and metaphorical usage of terms is an atrocity. no scholar in their right mind would accept their practices for interpreting scripture. and what about this joseph smith who had an angel appear to him? well galatians 1:8 says, but even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. mormonism preaches a different gospel so you draw your own conlusion.


i wanted to add something in regards to the works salvation thing. you said, "but how can he save us if we dont follow him?" the act of justification is a legal declaration and you can never be more justified than at the moment that takes place. you are declared not guilty before God based on the imputation of christ's righteousness. so salvation is a finished product in the eyes of God. there is no following christ in order to be saved.

copying and pasting again are we?

salvation: 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Physical death is overcome through Jesus and is a free gift to all man kind. no following of Jesus necessary to be saved. All will be resurrected. Salvation is FREE thanks to Jesus Christ!

exaltation: 1 Corinthians 15:39-43
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the telestial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:


spiritual death or the separation from God because of sin, is also overcome through Jesus by Faith, repentance, baptism of water and of fire (reception of the holy ghost). Exaltation is obtained only through Jesus Christ.

all will be saved (resurrected),but not all will be exalted(admitted into the Lords kingdom). The commandment to "Not judge" applies to deciding who will be exalted and who will not. It is not our place to do so, but the Lord and Saviour who has descended below us all, who knows all, our thoughts, our intents, our knowledge, our situation in life. He alone is able to judge us worthy of exaltation and eternal life in his presence.

These are my beliefs from studying the good word, written in my own words except scripture quoted from the Holy Bible.

 

[ruffryder]

yah, religions aren't confrontational by design...... sure looks like from this monitor.

 

[rasp112]

i hate to single you out but mormons and christians differ at a fundamental level. period! you say we butt heads.... well for good reason. i think it is funny that mormons take on Jesus is not who he claimed to be. mormonism is unequivocally polytheistic whereas the bible is monotheistic. mormonism veils there true belief with christian nomenclature and for the undiscerning is easy to be taken up. i have taken a hard look at mormonism documents and they no way square biblically. their scholastiscism,their appitude with the original languages, the ability to distinguish anthropomorhpic and metaphorical usage of terms is an atrocity. no scholar in their right mind would accept their practices for interpreting scripture. and what about this joseph smith who had an angel appear to him? well galatians 1:8 says, but even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. mormonism preaches a different gospel so you draw your own conlusion.


i wanted to add something in regards to the works salvation thing. you said, "but how can he save us if we dont follow him?" the act of justification is a legal declaration and you can never be more justified than at the moment that takes place. you are declared not guilty before God based on the imputation of christ's righteousness. so salvation is a finished product in the eyes of God. there is no following christ in order to be saved.

First of all im sorry but i only understood about half of your post. Your big words hardly impress me.. You think your use of big words are making you right.. Sorry that is more of a master of words rather than master of doctrine.. Your 'Biblical Scholars' mean nothing to me.. Who was chosen to preach the gospel in Christs times.. Not scholars by any means.. BUt those who were meek and lowly at heart..

"There is no following christ in order to be saved" I think phatty explained this well. I think that your so called scholars who are appently "justified" to accept an interpretation of the bible are the ones who err here.. "Pick up your cross and follow me"

When did we teach the Christ is not who he claimed to be.. I believe Christ is exactly who he claimed to be... You say we arent christians because we differ in doctrine so to you we have a different Christ.. Thats fine but I believe in the CHrist who came down from his thrown and suffered as we did. Overcame death and sin and prepared a way for all mankind to be saved from the awful hell of sin and death. I believe in the savior of mankind.. So if my Christ is different than yours that is okay.

YOu obviously dont understand mormon dactrine the way you say you do.. Because we arent polytheistic.. Meaning worshipping many gods.. We worship One god only.. The father of our spirits, our creator and master.. Our Eternal Heavenly father.. Thus being monotheistic

Joseph Smith and the angel Moroni only proffessed the gospel of Jesus Christ..
The same gospel that was taught in the old testament and new testament. The same gospel that christ taught in his ministry..

 

[MTm7]

copying and pasting again are we?

salvation: 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Physical death is overcome through Jesus and is a free gift to all man kind. no following of Jesus necessary to be saved. All will be resurrected. Salvation is FREE thanks to Jesus Christ!

exaltation: 1 Corinthians 15:39-43
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the telestial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:


spiritual death or the separation from God because of sin, is also overcome through Jesus by Faith, repentance, baptism of water and of fire (reception of the holy ghost). Exaltation is obtained only through Jesus Christ.

all will be saved (resurrected),but not all will be exalted(admitted into the Lords kingdom). The commandment to "Not judge" applies to deciding who will be exalted and who will not. It is not our place to do so, but the Lord and Saviour who has descended below us all, who knows all, our thoughts, our intents, our knowledge, our situation in life. He alone is able to judge us worthy of exaltation and eternal life in his presence.

These are my beliefs from studying the good word, written in my own words except scripture quoted from the Holy Bible.

copying and pasting.... ???? ahh i see you think i plagerized someone elses writtings..no? and you quoted scripture with your own thoughts so yours is valid. not being sarcastic at all i am just trying to make sure i am following you. you proved my point with your last paragraph. there is a hermeneutical principle for interpreting scripture and when you violate that then you come up with a myriad of different interpretations that are not faithful to what the author intended. "all will be saved.... but not all will be resurrected." twisting of scripture at a minimum. i would guess that you are a mormon as well? not insulting you so please dont take it that way.

 

[MTm7]

First of all im sorry but i only understood about half of your post. Your big words hardly impress me.. You think your use of big words are making you right.. Sorry that is more of a master of words rather than master of doctrine.. Your 'Biblical Scholars' mean nothing to me.. Who was chosen to preach the gospel in Christs times.. Not scholars by any means.. BUt those who were meek and lowly at heart..

"There is no following christ in order to be saved" I think phatty explained this well. I think that your so called scholars who are appently "justified" to accept an interpretation of the bible are the ones who err here.. "Pick up your cross and follow me"

When did we teach the Christ is not who he claimed to be.. I believe Christ is exactly who he claimed to be... You say we arent christians because we differ in doctrine so to you we have a different Christ.. Thats fine but I believe in the CHrist who came down from his thrown and suffered as we did. Overcame death and sin and prepared a way for all mankind to be saved from the awful hell of sin and death. I believe in the savior of mankind.. So if my Christ is different than yours that is okay.

YOu obviously dont understand mormon dactrine the way you say you do.. Because we arent polytheistic.. Meaning worshipping many gods.. We worship One god only.. The father of our spirits, our creator and master.. Our Eternal Heavenly father.. Thus being monotheistic

Joseph Smith and the angel Moroni only proffessed the gospel of Jesus Christ..
The same gospel that was taught in the old testament and new testament. The same gospel that christ taught in his ministry..

good point about the meek and lowly at hear. i agree with you. although paul would be considered a scholar in his time. the reason for scholars is their is a huge cultural, language, and time gap we are dealing with. the language issue is huge wouldnt you agree on that. i definitely need help on that. i am not trying to impress anyone with "big words" i apologize and for the sake of good conversation i will choose my words better. i respectfully disagree with you though regarding Jesus. i have looked at mormon documents and looked at the bible and they just dont square. phatty did not answer what i said correctly regarding justification. justification and sanctification are two totally different doctrines and when you get those reversed then you get works salvation. romans 5:9-10 says , since(present tense) therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. for if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. reconciled when we were his enemies(not following christ). i know we are not going to agree. i guess i should stop posting as to avoid a holy war. i certainly dont want it to come to that.

 

[Mooseknuckle]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Up there is where we are.

Here is where we started.

[/IMG]

Is this what you had in mind Mike?

Even though my beliefs might be a little shaky (to some), I think I'm rinning about 7-8/10.

I seem to have the most trouble with 3 and 4.
A sailors tonque sometimes.
A compulsion to ride parts of the year and a need to work the others (Sundays)

Enjoy the day, cuz if you won't I will.

 

[cmantle1]

Probably about time for this thread to die...

 

[phatty]

copying and pasting.... ???? ahh i see you think i plagerized someone elses writtings..no? and you quoted scripture with your own thoughts so yours is valid. not being sarcastic at all i am just trying to make sure i am following you. you proved my point with your last paragraph. there is a hermeneutical principle for interpreting scripture and when you violate that then you come up with a myriad of different interpretations that are not faithful to what the author intended. "all will be saved.... but not all will be resurrected." twisting of scripture at a minimum. i would guess that you are a mormon as well? not insulting you so please dont take it that way.

MT,
First off I want you to know that I feel you believe in Jesus Christ and i think that is wonderful! I also believe your intentions on this board have been good and I take it as a love for your fellow man that you are sharing your testimony of Jesus Christ with us. My intent is not to come on here and bicker about doctrine in anyway, so I apologize if i came across in that way. My intent was to show that You and i are not so different, nor is our doctrine we adhere to, whether you want to accept that or not.

Second, its obvious to anyone reading through this thread that you copied that paragraph from some website. You have not been using language like that, and the flow was different from your other posts. I just wanted to point that out. I understand that most all Christian churches preach all manner of falsehoods against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Members of the various sects of Christianity are given websites and oppressive literature that does nothing but spread lies and ignite hatred and misunderstandings. Be wary of such material against any religious doctrine, be it Mormans, Muslims, Wickens, Buddists, or whatever. Instead of treating other faiths like diseased disgraces, embrace them for the good they accomplish and learn truths from them. We would all benefit from such approaches.

Third, I don't think you read my post, or understood it. I did not twist scripture at all, I posted the scripture right there for all the snowest world to read. "All will be resurrected. Not all will be exalted (admitted to the kindgom of God)." I took it a little bit further and said we are NOT to judge who will be exalted, though i did not post scripture directly referencing that doctrine as i felt it is known by most everyone already.

Fourth, If you desire a sermon on God's justice and mercy from a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint perspective (meaning doctrine wise), I would happily write up a long post using scriptures, but it will not be something I argue about, nor post to be picked at and blasted. It will be to encourage faith in the Lord, and understanding in our hearts. I will answer any questions you have that are true and real questions, I will not indulge in answering questions meant to trap or harm others of any faith. There is no room for contention in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Fifth, Where ever it is found, we should embrace truth. There are some great truths exposed in this thread, and a lot of posts that remind us why the world is falling apart. Through our examples of charity, service, and love, we can make a difference. When people look at you and I they should see a pure heart and want to know why we are who we are. And you and I both know that its loving the Saviour Jesus Christ that allows us to be that way.