Warning ...some may find this offencive .....

[Mooseknuckle]

interesting point about survival instincts... though you didnt define free will. what is the "will", what does it do, and how does "free" relate to it?

The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

I would say that if I didn't have the freedom to choose whether or not I'm a believer, we wouldn't be having this discussion.


Will - Diligent purposefulness; determination
I'd like to think that buy accepting or rejecting one issue at a time instead of doing it wholesale, I would ferret out the corruptions of "the word" and educate myself with the "meaning" of the word

Free - Not imprisoned or enslaved; being at liberty

In essence, I'm empowered to make my own decisions. Assuming I use reason and logic I should arrive at the truth. If the truth is God, then I should indeed end up at that conclusion.

My problem, I guess, is I like to figure the "why".

Cognitive - Having a basis in or reducible to empirical factual knowledge.

I'm asked to believe in something that is very difficult to quantify, not to mention differentiate from the influences/interpretations of man.

If Hell is real, why didn't God make that warning plain right at the beginning of the Bible? God said the penalty for eating of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was death- -not "eternal life" in fire and brimstone.

Is it possible that over time the idea of "death" was sexed up a bit (I know, bad analogy) later to get the attention on the "flock". If I'm a preacher, its kinda hard to keep my congregation in line if all I have is "death". But, hey wait a minute, I'll throw in a little pagan lore about this place of neverending torture, pain and discontent and that will shape them up.

Not making light of scripture, I see this little scenario as possible, if not probable. Not just with He!! but with other parts of scripture. Although I must say that the Lord taking the snakes legs and making it slither in the sheet after the whole apple incident is funny, I don't care who you are.

 

[MTm7]

The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

I would say that if I didn't have the freedom to choose whether or not I'm a believer, we wouldn't be having this discussion.


Will - Diligent purposefulness; determination
I'd like to think that buy accepting or rejecting one issue at a time instead of doing it wholesale, I would ferret out the corruptions of "the word" and educate myself with the "meaning" of the word

Free - Not imprisoned or enslaved; being at liberty

In essence, I'm empowered to make my own decisions. Assuming I use reason and logic I should arrive at the truth. If the truth is God, then I should indeed end up at that conclusion.

My problem, I guess, is I like to figure the "why".

Cognitive - Having a basis in or reducible to empirical factual knowledge.

I'm asked to believe in something that is very difficult to quantify, not to mention differentiate from the influences/interpretations of man.

If Hell is real, why didn't God make that warning plain right at the beginning of the Bible? God said the penalty for eating of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was death- -not "eternal life" in fire and brimstone.

Is it possible that over time the idea of "death" was sexed up a bit (I know, bad analogy) later to get the attention on the "flock". If I'm a preacher, its kinda hard to keep my congregation in line if all I have is "death". But, hey wait a minute, I'll throw in a little pagan lore about this place of neverending torture, pain and discontent and that will shape them up.

Not making light of scripture, I see this little scenario as possible, if not probable. Not just with He!! but with other parts of scripture. Although I must say that the Lord taking the snakes legs and making it slither in the sheet after the whole apple incident is funny, I don't care who you are.

your first statement is impossible without one or more of the things listed being present.therefore a choice is always constrained somehow. oh yeah fate and divine will... that is an oxymoron. they just dont coalesce. good definition of free but does not apply to the human will. why?... because we are fallen creatures now. we have a sinful nature and there is no way around it. now we do what we do by necessity. for example if we have free will then just chose not to sin. it wont and cant happen. a person will do the bidding of its taskmaster everytime. are we free in the sense of making choices?.... yes. happens a hundred times everyday. but the will is not free from the constructs of the sinful nature, society, how you were raised(by sinners) etc. we are(all mankind) enslaved period. not to mention we are very limited. do i have the power to pick my parents?.... what country i am born in?... when i will die? those questions may seem absurd but it is relative to free choice(will). your not free to choose those. i am rambling... sorry. i did a poor job explaining myself.

 

[dingo2]

Faith is a personal choice.The problem comes when you try to impose your beliefs on others.There is no right or wrong beliefs just the one that works for you.

 

[sldgy]

Faith:unquestioning belief that does not require proof or evidence, a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.

Conscience:The awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong.

OK, snowest campers, is it possible for an individual to have a conscience independent of the existence of faith?

 

[Motley Doo]

Faith is a personal choice.The problem comes when you try to impose your beliefs on others.There is no right or wrong beliefs just the one that works for you.

Couldn't have said it better!

 

[ruffryder]

your first statement is impossible without one or more of the things listed being present.therefore a choice is always constrained somehow. oh yeah fate and divine will... that is an oxymoron. they just dont coalesce. good definition of free but does not apply to the human will. why?... because we are fallen creatures now. we have a sinful nature and there is no way around it. now we do what we do by necessity. for example if we have free will then just chose not to sin. it wont and cant happen. a person will do the bidding of its taskmaster everytime. are we free in the sense of making choices?.... yes. happens a hundred times everyday. but the will is not free from the constructs of the sinful nature, society, how you were raised(by sinners) etc. we are(all mankind) enslaved period. not to mention we are very limited. do i have the power to pick my parents?.... what country i am born in?... when i will die? those questions may seem absurd but it is relative to free choice(will). your not free to choose those. i am rambling... sorry. i did a poor job explaining myself.

that is exactly the reason for the roll eyes.

you wanted an answer because you already knew how to break it down. the answer to the free will question is the same as the religion question, the answer is based on beliefs. different beliefs, different answers.

My biggest problem with religion (I have many) is that your beliefs require my different beliefs to be wrong. If the basis of most religions is love, happiness, and peace, it seems odd a religion would require this.

 

[cmantle1]

My biggest problem with religion (I have many) is that your beliefs require my different beliefs to be wrong. If the basis of most religions is love, happiness, and peace, it seems odd a religion would require this.

Thats exactly my biggest problem with western religion as well. How can christians call themselves the most tolerant religion when they go around the world setting up missionaries to convert people from their "wicked and wrong" native ways?....

 

[MTm7]

that is exactly the reason for the roll eyes.

you wanted an answer because you already knew how to break it down. the answer to the free will question is the same as the religion question, the answer is based on beliefs. different beliefs, different answers.

My biggest problem with religion (I have many) is that your beliefs require my different beliefs to be wrong. If the basis of most religions is love, happiness, and peace, it seems odd a religion would require this.

i agree with you... yes i do somewhat understand the issues of freewill and how it breaksdown. the reason i asked the question was for the simple purpose of getting people to think about what they say? inherently in the question is right and wrong. just the way it is. havent you ever believed something(totally benevolent) and found out later it was wrong? i know i have. made me feel kind of stupid but nonetheless it was good to know the right way.

" my biggest problem with religion(i have many) is that your beliefs require my different beliefs to be wrong." near as i can tell we humans DO NOT like being wrong. we all have a worldview and that(among other things) dictates how we do "life" if you will. well here comes a "religious do gooder" telling me i got it all wrong. i am evil to the core. i dont know about you but i get a little bent out of shape when told such things. the pride of man is an implacable enemy and being told he is wrong will bring out the firearms. now to finish this paragraph.... my beliefs do not require yours to be wrong. you can continue on being and living life as is... but if the bible is right then you can not arrive at the exact location without knowing the "right" way to get there. i didnt make this up... if anbody has a contention than it is with God not me. i try to be as gentle and non-offensive as i can in dealing with these topics. inextricably though people get offended.

 

[MTm7]

Thats exactly my biggest problem with western religion as well. How can christians call themselves the most tolerant religion when they go around the world setting up missionaries to convert people from their "wicked and wrong" native ways?....

a true christian is the most tolerant. they wont tolerate the proliferation of lies but there should never be phsyical action taken to prevent it. what about the muslims. try being a christian in saudia arabia. it will cost you your life. america is the exception to the rule. you can say your a christian and it will cost nothing. everywhere else you will be brought to task. it will cost you your job, your family will disown you, imprisoned, tortured, and possibley loss of life. so who's the most tolerant? would you rather have your pride trampled on by a christian or possibly killed by a muslim? seems pretty obvious to me.

 

[Mooseknuckle]

MT - Here is where, like H2 and I, we part ways:

because we are fallen creatures now. we have a sinful nature and there is no way around it.

I don't accept the premise of your arguement. I can try to rationalize it to you but that would be asking you to question your

Faith:unquestioning belief that does not require proof or evidence...


and there in lies the problem - I can't ask you to suspend your belief. If you do, the foundation of it crumbles because you are willing to accept a premise that is contrary to what you believe. Its kind talking in circles, I know. Without putting words in your mouth - you can't entertain my premise.

As to dying,(mentioned a couple of your posts ago) I thought by being a pious person and your belief in JC as your personal savior you would live eternally? Joking, I know what you mean and meant, but that brings up another point.

Dying and you point about divine will... that is an oxymoron. This is not the best example but its simple. When Dale Sr. was killed in what was certainly less than horrific car wreck it was said, "I guess God needed a driver". Again not making light of the Lord, but that would be a definitive manifestation of divine will? No.

As to sldgy's comment -

....is it possible for an individual to have a conscience independent of the existence of faith?

Yes.
----------------------------------------

You know Bruce I was just about to post the above and I re-read what you asked. Is it faith as a belief, or as an "entity", for lack of a better word?

Definitely yes on the belief. However if your defining faith as an entity that leads us to a different but similar discussion.

If we start down that road..., the Lord will use my wife's foot to kick my arse if I don't finish the nursery and get some furniture in there. Hope more of you all are ridin' then read'n today. Cooke and Tog look full.
SJG

 

[MTm7]

i wasnt talking about dying i was talking about fate which isnt dying(necessarily). you can pose any rationalization you want. in fact i would encourage it. your definition of faith(not being critical at all) is not very good. at least in terms of it relating to mans sinful nature. there is plenty of evidence of that. and i have questioned it first before i came to approve of the doctrine. hope that makes sense. mooseknuckle, i have enjoyed dialoguing with you and others.

MT - Here is where, like H2 and I, we part ways:

because we are fallen creatures now. we have a sinful nature and there is no way around it.

I don't accept the premise of your arguement. I can try to rationalize it to you but that would be asking you to question your

Faith:unquestioning belief that does not require proof or evidence...


and there in lies the problem - I can't ask you to suspend your belief. If you do, the foundation of it crumbles because you are willing to accept a premise that is contrary to what you believe. Its kind talking in circles, I know. Without putting words in your mouth - you can't entertain my premise.

As to dying,(mentioned a couple of your posts ago) I thought by being a pious person and your belief in JC as your personal savior you would live eternally? Joking, I know what you mean and meant, but that brings up another point.

Dying and you point about divine will... that is an oxymoron. This is not the best example but its simple. When Dale Sr. was killed in what was certainly less than horrific car wreck it was said, "I guess God needed a driver". Again not making light of the Lord, but that would be a definitive manifestation of divine will? No.

As to sldgy's comment -

....is it possible for an individual to have a conscience independent of the existence of faith?

Yes.
----------------------------------------

You know Bruce I was just about to post the above and I re-read what you asked. Is it faith as a belief, or as an "entity", for lack of a better word?

Definitely yes on the belief. However if your defining faith as an entity that leads us to a different but similar discussion.

If we start down that road..., the Lord will use my wife's foot to kick my arse if I don't finish the nursery and get some furniture in there. Hope more of you all are ridin' then read'n today. Cooke and Tog look full.
SJG

 

[ruffryder]

a true christian is the most tolerant.

couldn't have seen that one coming, I would think that others would think the same of there own religion too.

they wont tolerate the proliferation of lies but there should never be phsyical action taken to prevent it. what about the muslims. try being a christian in saudia arabia. it will cost you your life. america is the exception to the rule. you can say your a christian and it will cost nothing. everywhere else you will be brought to task. it will cost you your job, your family will disown you, imprisoned, tortured, and possibley loss of life. so who's the most tolerant? would you rather have your pride trampled on by a christian or possibly killed by a muslim? seems pretty obvious to me.

I am sure that people in Muslim countries would say the same thing about being a Muslim in America.

Have you ever been to a Muslim country? They have good food and tea. Just don't drink the water.

 

[ruffryder]

the reason i asked the question was for the simple purpose of getting people to think about what they say? inherently in the question is right and wrong. just the way it is.

It disturbs me that there is right and wrong answers to questions about ones own beliefs. Don't fall off the slope though, I am talking about the questions in this thread.

but if the bible is right then you can not arrive at the exact location without knowing the "right" way to get there. i didnt make this up... if anbody has a contention than it is with God not me. i try to be as gentle and non-offensive as i can in dealing with these topics. inextricably though people get offended.

true, I guess the point I am trying to make is that your right and wrong for religious beliefs are not applicable to my beliefs. Just as I am sure that my right and wrong religious beliefs are not applicable to yours.

 

[MTm7]

couldn't have seen that one coming, I would think that others would think the same of there own religion too.



I am sure that people in Muslim countries would say the same thing about being a Muslim in America.

Have you ever been to a Muslim country? They have good food and tea. Just don't drink the water.

so i guess what i said is just my take on reality. and theirs is different to so who's to know? do you not agree with what i said(about outside america) possibly losing your life? i mean those are facts. i dont care what muslims say they are the ones persecuting. i am not. you made the comment on tolerance i was just pointing out the BIG differences.

 

[MTm7]

It disturbs me that there is right and wrong answers to questions about ones own beliefs. Don't fall off the slope though, I am talking about the questions in this thread.

i guess i dont understand the "fall of the slope" comment.

true, I guess the point I am trying to make is that your right and wrong for religious beliefs are not applicable to my beliefs. Just as I am sure that my right and wrong religious beliefs are not applicable to yours.

i am not sure what you mean as "applicable". i dont even know what you do believe. i guess my point is the stakes are as high as one can get. eternity is a concept no one can fully grasp. nonetheless it is a very sobering fact. we all stand at the threshold of eternity waiting to drop of into the abyss(the concept not the actual location). the fact of the matter is one cannot believe wrongly and end up at the right destination. so in that all important sense yes it is applicable.

 

[ruffryder]

so i guess what i said is just my take on reality. and theirs is different to so who's to know? do you not agree with what i said(about outside america) possibly losing your life? i mean those are facts. i dont care what muslims say they are the ones persecuting. i am not. you made the comment on tolerance i was just pointing out the BIG differences.

On your question about outside America, I am sure that for every religion there is a place you can go to and be killed for it, by those that are religious also no doubt. So yes.

Yep there are big differences on tolerance between Christianity and Islamic Fundamentalists, Militant Muslims, whatever else they are called......, but there are many more religions and sects or denominations that should be considered before a statement like you made should be said. You took the most extreme case, how about compare tolerance with Buddhism or Taosm?

 

[ruffryder]

one cannot believe wrongly and end up at the right destination. so in that all important sense yes it is applicable.

I guess, though I was hoping we could get outside of our own beliefs for this discussion... it is not so though.

All of your statements are based on your beliefs. We could change the argument though (me stating my beliefs and about how you are wrong in them) and we would be in the same place.

Why can't your beliefs have no account of me? Why do they have to involve non-believers? Why must there be a punishment?

I am not a believer so I am going to hell in your mind. Good thing is though, my beliefs require you to believe in yours, not mine. That can't be stated for many religions

 

[MTm7]

On your question about outside America, I am sure that for every religion there is a place you can go to and be killed for it, by those that are religious also no doubt. So yes.

Yep there are big differences on tolerance between Christianity and Islamic Fundamentalists, Militant Muslims, whatever else they are called......, but there are many more religions and sects or denominations that should be considered before a statement like you made should be said. You took the most extreme case, how about compare tolerance with Buddhism or Taosm?

i aquiesce to your point somewhat. christianity gets the tag of being intolerant because of the exclusivity of the claims of christ, i.e., " I am the Way and the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father except through me..." so yes i guess i am intolerant to all roads lead to God.

i apologize for not being even handed regarding other religions as a whole. not my best moment.

 

[MTm7]

I guess, though I was hoping we could get outside of our own beliefs for this discussion... it is not so though.

All of your statements are based on your beliefs. We could change the argument though (me stating my beliefs and about how you are wrong in them) and we would be in the same place.

Why can't your beliefs have no account of me? Why do they have to involve non-believers? Why must there be a punishment?

I am not a believer so I am going to hell in your mind. Good thing is though, my beliefs require you to believe in yours, not mine. That can't be stated for many religions

my beliefs have to take into account all humanity. though they are not my beliefs as if i own them. if i have the cure for cancer should i not tell everyone who will listen. not to mention Christ commanded his flock to make disciples in all the earth. as a believer i should have a level of concern for my fellow man. especially(most importantly) considering the claims of the bible. so invariably it takes into account every persons beliefs.

your beliefs do not require me to believe what i do. im required by God to believe His word. it doesnt hinge on anybody else, no matter what they believe. your questions are good ones and they are ones i have wrestled with myself. i see what your saying regarding what you believe and then me in turn telling you you are wrong. that is a road you dont want to go down i respectfully understand. its been fun(probably not for you)!

 

[ruffryder]

its been fun(probably not for you)!

I am always down for some interesting conversation.