Warning ...some may find this offencive .....

[papafinger1]

theres something we can agree on

And my notions earlier about money were more intended that i find it a security in this world. And it does tie into both religion and government. Politicians are bribed, along with the people who work for them. And at one point i could pay the church to forgive my sins.
So, i can be as horrible of a son of a ***** as a i want, as long as i make money i can buy away my sins at the church.....

Wow,,, can't argue with that....

 

[H2SNOW]

theres something we can agree on

And my notions earlier about money were more intended that i find it a security in this world. And it does tie into both religion and government. Politicians are bribed, along with the people who work for them. And at one point i could pay the church to forgive my sins.
So, i can be as horrible of a son of a ***** as a i want, as long as i make money i can buy away my sins at the church.....

holy crap ! thats too bad that someone lied to you and said that you could buy away your sins at church .....there is no such thing as that ....there isn't enough cash in the plate to forgive you of our sins...

 

[cmantle1]

holy crap ! thats too bad that someone lied to you and said that you could buy away your sins at church .....there is no such thing as that ....there isn't enough cash in the plate to forgive you of our sins...

well mabye if you studied any history you would know that i was poking fun when you could do that in Europe....

 

[MTm7]

well mabye if you studied any history you would know that i was poking fun when you could do that in Europe....

i believe those were called "indulgences".

 

[cmantle1]

i believe those were called "indulgences".

they were, and they were one of the main reasons martin luther spoke out against the church and started his reform.

 

[MTm7]

they were, and they were one of the main reasons martin luther spoke out against the church and started his reform.

yup.... 95 theses posted on the castle door at wittenberg. oct. 31, 1517 the start of the protestant reformation.

 

[MTm7]

its been fun... im out!

 

[cmantle1]

my grandkids(cant say what state) are not allowed to play with most of the other kids that live close by because they dont go to the same church.friken wierd sh!t,aint it.

thats outrageous, but even more just sad....

 

[Motley Doo]

Holy crap(no pun intended.) Cmantle1, your kinda caught in a cross fire. hehehe. I don't go to church, was never forced to, and will never force anyone too, or even try to make them go! I just think that it is something that YOU, yourself, can do, but only if you don't want to! I choose not to, I don't bag on anyone if they do, but if they harp on me about not going, they'll get an ear full! Believe what you want to believe. The one thing that I do have against it came across about 5 years ago. My mom had a friend that took her son to a Sunday school, long story short, the kid was molested by one of the priests or pastures, I dunno, but she refused to believe that this guy was doing this, and yes, they proved that he did do it, and I don't care what he was, I would have beat the living %$&@ out of the guy! Isn't really a religious problem, but I kinda have to think that it had something to do with her not believing her son.

 

[mod03rmk800]

I do not attend church. I do believe in God.
I have to say that during my teen years I could care less about religion for the most part. In my twenties I ignored religion. Now in my thirties I am SEEING that there is a higher power. My whole life I did think I believed in God but for me it was just a feeling of faith. I have noticed that when things in my life have gone really bad that it had been a long time since I put any thought into God. And it seemed that after that thought things changed for the better. You can fall back to the "time heals" thing, but for me I see it as a real thing. But the two biggest things that I have seen was the death of two people in my family and what I experienced after. First was my grandfather died in Idaho while I was out on a
boat in the Gulf of Alaska. I had a dream with him shortly afterwards which really scared me at the time. Long story about the dream. But when I woke in the morning I didn't have that pain of loss as much. Second was my nephew who recently passed and a couple weeks later had a dream where he just came up to me and kissed me on my cheek then walked off, no words spoken. Woke to most of the heartache eased. Those two examples for me shows that there is more than what is here.

I personally do not believe that there is one person going to hell for honestly in there heart not seeing there is something there. I think there are vast differences in everyones level of dedication to their religion.

Now, the moral obligation to each other should be held to high standards without the religion debate. You stealing someones work or ideas is disgusting. No different than stealing ones sled. Have I stole something, absolutely. Has a cashier under charged me and I said nothing, Yes.
Right and wrong is a hard thing to practice on all levels. I am still growing in those regards. When it does come to a more personal level I have grown enough to have the "do on to others" approach to life. I have more respect for the person flipping burgers that would give someone there last dollar to help than the multi million dollar guy that only thinks of himself and walks all over others and only gives a dollar cause its a tax break.

Well sorry for this novel, but Its hard to just summarize something like this.

 

[cmantle1]

You stealing someones work or ideas is disgusting.

Probably is, but do i care? not one bit.... I hope you dont think your the first personal to tell me that, and you definently wont be the last. Will it ever have an effect on me? nope. Will it come back to me? good chance of that, and ill be expecting it.

 

[cmantle1]

Holy crap(no pun intended.) Cmantle1, your kinda caught in a cross fire. hehehe. I don't go to church, was never forced to, and will never force anyone too, or even try to make them go! I just think that it is something that YOU, yourself, can do, but only if you don't want to! I choose not to, I don't bag on anyone if they do, but if they harp on me about not going, they'll get an ear full! Believe what you want to believe. The one thing that I do have against it came across about 5 years ago. My mom had a friend that took her son to a Sunday school, long story short, the kid was molested by one of the priests or pastures, I dunno, but she refused to believe that this guy was doing this, and yes, they proved that he did do it, and I don't care what he was, I would have beat the living %$&@ out of the guy! Isn't really a religious problem, but I kinda have to think that it had something to do with her not believing her son.

ew.

 

[revneck]

So what should we actually believe

The Tenth Commandment for Jews and most Protestants is the entire "thou shalt not covet" passage. But Catholics and Lutherans list two "thou shalt not covet" commandments: one against coveting your neighbor's wife and one against coveting your neighbor's property, including his ***.

Then there is the question of what the commandments were meant to mean.

For example, the First Commandment that "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" indicates that it was OK to have gods other than Yahweh, so long as Yahweh was No. 1.

Monotheism came later.

"Thou shalt not commit adultery" originally only forbade sex with a married woman.

Married men were free to have sex with other females. That's because establishing paternity, not maintaining sexual purity, was the reason for that commandment.

Then there are the commandments in the next chapter of Exodus, which allow fathers to sell their daughters into slavery (21:7) and say that "whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death" (21:17).


hmmm I didn't write this stuff...........HOLY

 

[Mooseknuckle]

define free will.

Let me see if I can make this sound somewhat intelligent. Being like most things in the world, we have instinct. If someone throws a punch at you, your instinct is to jerk away. The fighter has trained to control that instinct so that the jerk is controlled to just enough movement to slip the punch.

Most other beings don't really have the ability to over ride their survival instinct, we as humans seem to have that ability. We can do things to ourselves that cause us to die. We have that choice, everyday - wake up and choose to live or choose to die through our actions during that given day.

The same goes with thought, in my mind. You can choose to think or you don't have to. Others are more than willing to do it for you.

"Cuz I said so", or "because its written" isn't good enough for me. I want to figure it out in my own mind. I might end up at the same place as someone who takes things at face value, but I'll know I got there on my own. Make any sense?

 

[MTm7]

So what should we actually believe

The Tenth Commandment for Jews and most Protestants is the entire "thou shalt not covet" passage. But Catholics and Lutherans list two "thou shalt not covet" commandments: one against coveting your neighbor's wife and one against coveting your neighbor's property, including his ***.

Then there is the question of what the commandments were meant to mean.

For example, the First Commandment that "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" indicates that it was OK to have gods other than Yahweh, so long as Yahweh was No. 1.

Monotheism came later.

"Thou shalt not commit adultery" originally only forbade sex with a married woman.

Married men were free to have sex with other females. That's because establishing paternity, not maintaining sexual purity, was the reason for that commandment.

Then there are the commandments in the next chapter of Exodus, which allow fathers to sell their daughters into slavery (21:7) and say that "whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death" (21:17).


hmmm I didn't write this stuff...........HOLY

monotheism did not come later. that is a total misrepresentation and misinterpretation of the 1st commandment of the decalogue. its always been One God. as if there are others anyways. only in the sundry ways man contrives in his imagination. to rightly worship God there can be no other(2nd, 3rd, etc) god. we(believers) are betrothed to Him(the whole bride{believers} and Groom analogy). therefore having other gods is committing fornication. we are to be chaste.

 

[MTm7]

Let me see if I can make this sound somewhat intelligent. Being like most things in the world, we have instinct. If someone throws a punch at you, your instinct is to jerk away. The fighter has trained to control that instinct so that the jerk is controlled to just enough movement to slip the punch.

Most other beings don't really have the ability to over ride their survival instinct, we as humans seem to have that ability. We can do things to ourselves that cause us to die. We have that choice, everyday - wake up and choose to live or choose to die through our actions during that given day.

The same goes with thought, in my mind. You can choose to think or you don't have to. Others are more than willing to do it for you.

"Cuz I said so", or "because its written" isn't good enough for me. I want to figure it out in my own mind. I might end up at the same place as someone who takes things at face value, but I'll know I got there on my own. Make any sense?

interesting point about survival instincts... though you didnt define free will. what is the "will", what does it do, and how does "free" relate to it?

 

[ruffryder]

interesting point about survival instincts... though you didnt define free will. what is the "will", what does it do, and how does "free" relate to it?

ha, you know the only answer that you will accept as the definition, so how about you fill in the rest of us.

 

[buck50]

monotheism did not come later. that is a total misrepresentation and misinterpretation of the 1st commandment of the decalogue. its always been One God. as if there are others anyways. only in the sundry ways man contrives in his imagination. to rightly worship God there can be no other(2nd, 3rd, etc) god. we(believers) are betrothed to Him(the whole bride{believers} and Groom analogy). therefore having other gods is committing fornication. we are to be chaste.

so what are the father the son and the holy ghost. is jesus a demigod then!!!----quoting clint eastwood in million dollar baby

personally i believe in god. is it the exact same definition as yours, who knows. but organized religion isn't much different to me than organized crime. one charges you to protect your body, the other your soul!

 

[MTm7]

ha, you know the only answer that you will accept as the definition, so how about you fill in the rest of us.

judging by the roll of the eyes your annoyed... no? when people say things i just want to know if they really understand what they said. i constantly think things through(like say after a conversation i just had) to see if what i said made sense. i mean i have used phrases and or words in conversation just because i have heard them before. not knowing what they really meant. im just curious to see what papafinger(and whoever else) understands free will to be. i may not accept their"definition" but i am not going to use it as a club to make myself look pious or smarter than anyone else. if i have done that i apologize to all.

 

[MTm7]

so what are the father the son and the holy ghost. is jesus a demigod then!!!----quoting clint eastwood in million dollar baby

personally i believe in god. is it the exact same definition as yours, who knows. but organized religion isn't much different to me than organized crime. one charges you to protect your body, the other your soul!

the Trinity is what it is called. One God three persons. its not modalism(God appearing in different "modes" at different times. three distinct persons but one God. i know the objections... and yes it can be confusing. people waaaaaay smarter than me have discussed this subject and agree that there certainly is a bit of mystery to it.... doesnt not make it true.

the religion your talking about i would agree with you. it seems that if "religion" gets any press it is always bad. true religion that is undefiled does not manifest itself as you described.