Warning ...some may find this offencive .....

[rasp112]

MT,
First off I want you to know that I feel you believe in Jesus Christ and i think that is wonderful! I also believe your intentions on this board have been good and I take it as a love for your fellow man that you are sharing your testimony of Jesus Christ with us. My intent is not to come on here and bicker about doctrine in anyway, so I apologize if i came across in that way. My intent was to show that You and i are not so different, nor is our doctrine we adhere to, whether you want to accept that or not.

Second, its obvious to anyone reading through this thread that you copied that paragraph from some website. You have not been using language like that, and the flow was different from your other posts. I just wanted to point that out. I understand that most all Christian churches preach all manner of falsehoods against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Members of the various sects of Christianity are given websites and oppressive literature that does nothing but spread lies and ignite hatred and misunderstandings. Be wary of such material against any religious doctrine, be it Mormans, Muslims, Wickens, Buddists, or whatever. Instead of treating other faiths like diseased disgraces, embrace them for the good they accomplish and learn truths from them. We would all benefit from such approaches.

Third, I don't think you read my post, or understood it. I did not twist scripture at all, I posted the scripture right there for all the snowest world to read. "All will be resurrected. Not all will be exalted (admitted to the kindgom of God)." I took it a little bit further and said we are NOT to judge who will be exalted, though i did not post scripture directly referencing that doctrine as i felt it is known by most everyone already.

Fourth, If you desire a sermon on God's justice and mercy from a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint perspective (meaning doctrine wise), I would happily write up a long post using scriptures, but it will not be something I argue about, nor post to be picked at and blasted. It will be to encourage faith in the Lord, and understanding in our hearts. I will answer any questions you have that are true and real questions, I will not indulge in answering questions meant to trap or harm others of any faith. There is no room for contention in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Fifth, Where ever it is found, we should embrace truth. There are some great truths exposed in this thread, and a lot of posts that remind us why the world is falling apart. Through our examples of charity, service, and love, we can make a difference. When people look at you and I they should see a pure heart and want to know why we are who we are. And you and I both know that its loving the Saviour Jesus Christ that allows us to be that way.

Wow.. Well put.. I wish I were better with words.. And Id like to apologize too if I ever started a holy war.. Never my intentions.. I guess I seem to get frustrated when people of other faiths tell me what I believe.. And I get on the defensive..

You believe your interpretation of the bible to be true and I believe our interpretation to be true.. So when you say the beliefs of mormons and the teachings of the bible do not coincide.. I have to disagree.. I have read the bible and studied it and feel that the gospel we preach today is the very gospel taught by Paul, prophets and Christ himself.

I served as a Missionary for my church and had the chance to speak with, listen to, and teach many people of different faiths.. Many evangelical christians.. And i gained a strong respect for those people because even though we differed on points of doctrine.. I felt they truly love the savior and are trying to promote faith and striving to better the world we live in..

 

[24footjet]

I believe Phatty said this.... "Instead of treating other faiths like diseased disgraces, embrace them for the good they accomplish and learn truths from them. We would all benefit from such approaches".

There couldn't be more of a post-modernist statement. So what "truth" do we take from muslims? Mormons? Jehovah Witnesses? Hindus? I guess we go blow up buildings if we are muslims, hope to be a god on another planet if we are a mormon, don't celebrate Christmas as a JW, and serve many different animals as a Hindu? Come on guys... find some "truth" for me and back up your statement. Jesus is the truth, proven time and time again... the Biblical Jesus.

I have dealt in-depth with Mormons on their salvation model, it looks like a NCAA basketball bracket with how you can "earn" your way to heaven. It's a gift people, you don't do anything to earn it. It's free, you don't do good things to go to heaven, you are justified at salvation, that is when you repent of sins, turn your back on them, and place your trust in Jesus Christ. Mormons and Christians serve a different Jesus, you say you don't but we do. You don't serve the Jesus of the Bible, you serve a Jesus of your own model. I'm not afraid to say this, I'm not afraid of offending because this is life and death, heaven or hell.

Here is the underlying statement of the day. What is truth. Most people who are non-Christians, and apparently a couple mormons on here, would say, "whatever is true for you." Take a little of every faiths "truth" and apply it to "your" theology. Doesn't work that way.

Alot of things to reply to here, but no time.

 

[24footjet]

This is cut and past from carm.org about mormon teaching on salvation... All these facts are taken from Mormon writers not Christian writers, so no bias, just proof.

CHRISTIANS SERVE A DIFFERENT JESUS THAN MORMONS.

Salvation
"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation." (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206.)

A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god." (Mormon Doctrine, page 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 8.)

Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)

Good works are necessary for salvation, Articles of Faith, p. 92.)
There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188.)

"The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79.)

"As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'" (Articles of Faith p. 79).

"This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts" (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).

"We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).

 

[ruffryder]

Here is the underlying statement of the day. What is truth. Most people who are non-Christians, and apparently a couple mormons on here, would say, "whatever is true for you." Take a little of every faiths "truth" and apply it to "your" theology. Doesn't work that way.

Alot of things to reply to here, but no time.

There is no one answer to that question, it is all based upon beliefs. Though it looks like your mind is already made up.

Phatty, I liked your statement, good point of view.

I don't know why there is such competition to be the one true religion.... there is no such thing. People have been trying to figure out religion for 4000 years and longer. Its definition is constantly in flux, different meanings, different beliefs.... to think that one religion has all the answers for everybody for all time.... seems hard for ME to believe.

24footjet,

Why do you have such a problem with people believing different than you?

 

[rasp112]

I believe Phatty said this.... "Instead of treating other faiths like diseased disgraces, embrace them for the good they accomplish and learn truths from them. We would all benefit from such approaches".

There couldn't be more of a post-modernist statement. So what "truth" do we take from muslims? Mormons? Jehovah Witnesses? Hindus? I guess we go blow up buildings if we are muslims, hope to be a god on another planet if we are a mormon, don't celebrate Christmas as a JW, and serve many different animals as a Hindu? Come on guys... find some "truth" for me and back up your statement. Jesus is the truth, proven time and time again... the Biblical Jesus.

I have dealt in-depth with Mormons on their salvation model, it looks like a NCAA basketball bracket with how you can "earn" your way to heaven. It's a gift people, you don't do anything to earn it. It's free, you don't do good things to go to heaven, you are justified at salvation, that is when you repent of sins, turn your back on them, and place your trust in Jesus Christ. Mormons and Christians serve a different Jesus, you say you don't but we do. You don't serve the Jesus of the Bible, you serve a Jesus of your own model. I'm not afraid to say this, I'm not afraid of offending because this is life and death, heaven or hell.

Here is the underlying statement of the day. What is truth. Most people who are non-Christians, and apparently a couple mormons on here, would say, "whatever is true for you." Take a little of every faiths "truth" and apply it to "your" theology. Doesn't work that way.

Alot of things to reply to here, but no time.

Me nor Phatty said that truth is whatever is true for you is what is truth.. I dare say and I'm sure phatty too that we do hold all truth. You misunderstood his satement.. He said to look at other religions for the good they do and acknowlege them for the truths that they do hold even if they are incomplete.. You are the very example of what he mentioned.. You feel as if every other person that is not of your faith is a disease to this earth..

"So what "truth" do we take from muslims? Mormons? Jehovah Witnesses? Hindus? I guess we go blow up buildings if we are muslims, hope to be a god on another planet if we are a mormon, don't celebrate Christmas as a JW, and serve many different animals as a Hindu?"
^^^^^^
And thank you for proving Phattys point.... "Members of the various sects of Christianity are given websites and oppressive literature that does nothing but spread lies and ignite hatred and misunderstandings."

What "truth" are we to take from evangelical Christans.. That i can yell.. "Praise the Lord Jesus I accept you" and im now saved.. Very shallow interpretation of the holy bible and the gospel of Jesus Christ..

Youre comparision to an NCAA bracket proves how much you misunderstand our belief in Jesus Christ and the sacrifice he made for mankind and the plan of salvation..

 

[rasp112]

This is cut and past from carm.org about mormon teaching on salvation... All these facts are taken from Mormon writers not Christian writers, so no bias, just proof.

CHRISTIANS SERVE A DIFFERENT JESUS THAN MORMONS.

Salvation
"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation." (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206.)

A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god." (Mormon Doctrine, page 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 8.)

Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)

Good works are necessary for salvation, Articles of Faith, p. 92.)
There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188.)

"The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79.)

"As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'" (Articles of Faith p. 79).

"This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts" (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).

"We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).

And this is was many haters and bashers do to serve their purpose.. Take the words out of context.. Cut and paste..

Now i can see why people like ruffruder and cmantle are so turned off to religion.. People like you tell them they are worthless and going to hell.. Is that how Christ taught his gospel.. far from it..

Its easy to see the diffence in Christ teaching and how you teach the gospel which is a sure sign to me the things you say do not come from him..

God loves ALL his children whether they believe in him or not.. I think I have the duty as a follower of him to treat them as he would treat them..

 

[24footjet]

Ruffy, I have no problem with others believing whatever they want to believe...God tells me I have the truth in his word, the Bible, and I tell people what I have been shown. Imagine you are driving down the road and up ahead the bridge is out... if you continue on the road you are on, you will drive off the end of the road and die. I am driving on this same road and have seen the bridge... I am trying to help, believe it or not, you to not die and go to a place you don't want to go, ie...hell. If I offend you, my conscience is clear because I have done what I should do, proclaim who Jesus is and what he has done and how to live with Him forever.

Braap, you say this... "I dare say and I'm sure phatty too that we do hold all truth." So you can say that as a Mormon, you hold all truth, but me a Christian can't say this! Unbelievable! I'm getting criticized here for stating what I believe, and all others are coming to the defense of the Mormons because they agreee with non-believers that I am wrong. Funny how the non-christians are siding with the Mormons, that should be cause for alarm my Mormon friends. Mormons don't believe in the true Jesus.

So you said you hold all truth, yet say that... "look at other religions for the good they do and acknowlege them for the truths that they do hold even if they are incomplete.." according to you, you hold all truths yet others hold truths.... and we are to hold to them even though they are incomplete? WOW! Would you ride a roller coaster if the track weren't complete? Would you fly in a plane if the engine wasn't complete? This is WAY more important... yet you hold to a religion with incomplete "truths".

You are doing my job, showing how what you believe in is wrong, and faulty, without anything to back you up. I've given you statements from your OWN LEADERSHIP IN THE MORMON CHURCH... yet you say this is wrong, out of context? What part of the context can be misconstrued. The part where mormons think Jesus and Satan are brothers, God had sex with Mary to create Jesus, that works are required along with trust in Jesus? Or is it the part where God lives on the planet Kolob? Tell me.... I'm interested to know. Refute what I have just said and then we can show the differences between your Jesus, and mine.

This comment from you braap is laughable. "Members of the various sects of Christianity are given websites and oppressive literature that does nothing but spread lies and ignite hatred and misunderstandings." Who is the group who REQUIRES it's members to go on a mission and be indoctrinated with mormon theology? Is it Christians? No, we choose to do this. Mormons have to. So we put together some facts and figures that cannot be refuted and are called haters and oppressors. Your church requires how much in tithe?

Braap you say, What "truth" are we to take from evangelical Christans.. That i can yell.. "Praise the Lord Jesus I accept you" and im now saved.. Very shallow interpretation of the holy bible and the gospel of Jesus Christ..

Here's the problem... Christianity is being watered down to the place where people believe that this is all they have to do. Go to church, say a prayer, and your in. Wrong. It's a change of heart, it's a rebirth where Jesus takes over your life and you are a new creation.... Proven how? By GOOD WORKS. Here is where good works come in. They prove that you are a true Christian... you do what God wants and requires. You are different, don't want to do and say the same things as you used to. This is proof of a true conversion. You grow as a Christian, you don't stay where you are at, the Holy Spirit teaches you and leads you into areas He want you to be... for me, it's right here right now refuting mormons who are spreading false christianity throughout the world. I am not the one knocking on your door trying to convert you to my though process.... but if I'm given the opportunity to speak about the change in my life through salvation in Jesus Christ, I take the opportunity.

And trust me Braap, I DEFINITELY understand the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross 2000 years ago, your mormon elders don't believe this, read what I put on here from Carm.org. It says it in your own mormon teaching books, not taken out of context, word for word... Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)

"We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).

Seems I know more about you than you know about yourself, or are deceived into believing.

One thing you are right about, we are ALL WORTHLESS AND ARE ALL GOING TO HELL, UNLESS WE REPENT OF OUR SIN AND PLACE OUR TRUST IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE. Everybody is in the same boat, nobody is better than anybody here, I'm just forgiven because I have repented of my sin, and placed my trust in Jesus. People are turned of to religion braap because it's becoming man-centered, not God-centered. Believing you can become a God on another planet, pretty man-centered if you ask me.

Jesus wasn't all lovey dovey all the time braap, read how he shames the pharisees and sadducees, read how he cleanses the temple from the shame that was going on in a Holy place... Jesus rooted out sin and was WAY better at it than me. God is Love, but in the end we are all going to be judged according to what we believed down here on earth.

I choose to believe in the Jesus of the Bible, not one of my own making up.

 

[cmantle1]

Ruffy, I have no problem with others believing whatever they want to believe...God tells me I have the truth in his word, the Bible, and I tell people what I have been shown. Imagine you are driving down the road and up ahead the bridge is out... if you continue on the road you are on, you will drive off the end of the road and die. I am driving on this same road and have seen the bridge... I am trying to help, believe it or not, you to not die and go to a place you don't want to go, ie...hell. If I offend you, my conscience is clear because I have done what I should do, proclaim who Jesus is and what he has done and how to live with Him forever.

I choose to believe in the Jesus of the Bible, not one of my own making up.

....wow.....You are the exact reason i despise religion. Braaap at least can see how others dont choose to be religious and still treat them as he would anyone else....Phatty learns what he can from all religions to gain knowledge.....You are the typical Jesus loving person who has to try and "save" me from my doom in hell. Rediculous.....

 

[phatty]

This is cut and past from carm.org about mormon teaching on salvation... All these facts are taken from Mormon writers not Christian writers, so no bias, just proof.

CHRISTIANS SERVE A DIFFERENT JESUS THAN MORMONS.

Salvation
"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation." (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206.)

A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god." (Mormon Doctrine, page 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 8.)

Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)

Good works are necessary for salvation, Articles of Faith, p. 92.)
There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188.)

"The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79.)

"As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'" (Articles of Faith p. 79).

"This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts" (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).

"We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).

I would really encourage you to get the entire paragraphs and surrounding paragraphs with the context that these phrases were taken in. Of course when you just read them here gutted and cut from proper context they sound appalling to you. If your doctrine study of mormons comes from your minister and websites like the one these came from of course it will be confusing, thats what anti-mormon literature is designed to do, confuse the mind and soul by offering a partial truth twisted to manipulate the reader in a specific direction.

There are truths and gems of knowledge in all religions. Its up to you to glean it from the rest and apply it to your life. I don't particularly care for muslims attitude or their extremist jihads and i oppose a lot of their practices and beliefs, but for anyone that has really study the religion they bring some good cards to the table. Its up to us to take that and apply it to our life's, it can only benefit us. Thats all i was trying to say. This attitude that there is nothing good there is wrong period. This attitude is just as venomous as saying that all sledders are rednecks destroying the environment and that we need to shut down all public land from snowmobile use.

One of my fundamental beliefs
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Nevertheless if you want me to make a list of little truths we can gain from other religions I will. But what will you profit from it will be up to you.

Christianity teaches: Honor thy father and thy mother that thy days may be long.
Muslims teach: Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour. And, out of kindness, lower to them the wing of humility, and say: My Lord! Bestow on them thy Mercy even as they cherished me in childhood.

How then is that not a truth? Its taught in the bible true enough, but do you see that its also taught in truth in another religion?

The Dhyana from hinduism and buddhism is something you could learn a lot from. True meditation can free your soul from mundane worries and help you keep focus on the things that really matter in this life. Try it sometime.

Here is one even a little closer, cmantle1 who IMO steals peoples work to get ahead even shows us truth in his life. We can learn that obtaining the things we most want in this life takes work and dedication. In his case his treasure is money and providing a lifestyle for himself and his family. I may not approve of some of the steps (actions) he as taken to get there, but i can learn from his example, apply it to my life and become a better person by knowing that it will take hard work to obtain that which i desire.

I dont believe in any way that this is post modernist thinking. In NO WAY does learning these things and becoming a "better" person harm or destroy my belief in Jesus. In fact i believe it only adds to my belief in his divinity.

 

[rasp112]

Ruffy, I have no problem with others believing whatever they want to believe...God tells me I have the truth in his word, the Bible, and I tell people what I have been shown. Imagine you are driving down the road and up ahead the bridge is out... if you continue on the road you are on, you will drive off the end of the road and die. I am driving on this same road and have seen the bridge... I am trying to help, believe it or not, you to not die and go to a place you don't want to go, ie...hell. If I offend you, my conscience is clear because I have done what I should do, proclaim who Jesus is and what he has done and how to live with Him forever.

Braap, you say this... "I dare say and I'm sure phatty too that we do hold all truth." So you can say that as a Mormon, you hold all truth, but me a Christian can't say this! Unbelievable! I'm getting criticized here for stating what I believe, and all others are coming to the defense of the Mormons because they agreee with non-believers that I am wrong. Funny how the non-christians are siding with the Mormons, that should be cause for alarm my Mormon friends. Mormons don't believe in the true Jesus.

So you said you hold all truth, yet say that... "look at other religions for the good they do and acknowlege them for the truths that they do hold even if they are incomplete.." according to you, you hold all truths yet others hold truths.... and we are to hold to them even though they are incomplete? WOW! Would you ride a roller coaster if the track weren't complete? Would you fly in a plane if the engine wasn't complete? This is WAY more important... yet you hold to a religion with incomplete "truths".

You are doing my job, showing how what you believe in is wrong, and faulty, without anything to back you up. I've given you statements from your OWN LEADERSHIP IN THE MORMON CHURCH... yet you say this is wrong, out of context? What part of the context can be misconstrued. The part where mormons think Jesus and Satan are brothers, God had sex with Mary to create Jesus, that works are required along with trust in Jesus? Or is it the part where God lives on the planet Kolob? Tell me.... I'm interested to know. Refute what I have just said and then we can show the differences between your Jesus, and mine.

This comment from you braap is laughable. "Members of the various sects of Christianity are given websites and oppressive literature that does nothing but spread lies and ignite hatred and misunderstandings." Who is the group who REQUIRES it's members to go on a mission and be indoctrinated with mormon theology? Is it Christians? No, we choose to do this. Mormons have to. So we put together some facts and figures that cannot be refuted and are called haters and oppressors. Your church requires how much in tithe?

Braap you say, What "truth" are we to take from evangelical Christans.. That i can yell.. "Praise the Lord Jesus I accept you" and im now saved.. Very shallow interpretation of the holy bible and the gospel of Jesus Christ..

Here's the problem... Christianity is being watered down to the place where people believe that this is all they have to do. Go to church, say a prayer, and your in. Wrong. It's a change of heart, it's a rebirth where Jesus takes over your life and you are a new creation.... Proven how? By GOOD WORKS. Here is where good works come in. They prove that you are a true Christian... you do what God wants and requires. You are different, don't want to do and say the same things as you used to. This is proof of a true conversion. You grow as a Christian, you don't stay where you are at, the Holy Spirit teaches you and leads you into areas He want you to be... for me, it's right here right now refuting mormons who are spreading false christianity throughout the world. I am not the one knocking on your door trying to convert you to my though process.... but if I'm given the opportunity to speak about the change in my life through salvation in Jesus Christ, I take the opportunity.

And trust me Braap, I DEFINITELY understand the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross 2000 years ago, your mormon elders don't believe this, read what I put on here from Carm.org. It says it in your own mormon teaching books, not taken out of context, word for word... Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)

"We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).

Seems I know more about you than you know about yourself, or are deceived into believing.

One thing you are right about, we are ALL WORTHLESS AND ARE ALL GOING TO HELL, UNLESS WE REPENT OF OUR SIN AND PLACE OUR TRUST IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE. Everybody is in the same boat, nobody is better than anybody here, I'm just forgiven because I have repented of my sin, and placed my trust in Jesus. People are turned of to religion braap because it's becoming man-centered, not God-centered. Believing you can become a God on another planet, pretty man-centered if you ask me.

Jesus wasn't all lovey dovey all the time braap, read how he shames the pharisees and sadducees, read how he cleanses the temple from the shame that was going on in a Holy place... Jesus rooted out sin and was WAY better at it than me. God is Love, but in the end we are all going to be judged according to what we believed down here on earth.

I choose to believe in the Jesus of the Bible, not one of my own making up.

I never told you you cant say that.. It is the way that you approach it.. You are doing a diservice to the Christ you claim you follow and to your fellow man the way you approach this.. On my mission I never attacked one person the way you have to me in these posts. There lies the difference.. I was there to share the truth of the restored gospel and invited others to see for their self if it is true.. Thats all.. I never belittled people.. I shared the truth and invited people to learn for themselves.. I would never take the approach you are taking cause I know thats not what christs gospel is about.. If you want to have a mature conversation where we share our beliefs thats fine with me.. Id be happy to o share and give scriptures.. but when you try to tell me what my church doctrine is when you dont have the slightest clue its worthless.. You seem to result to yelling and bashing and hating no matter what the case.. but i'm done with this teenage yelling match and looking for an adult conversation

 

[24footjet]

I know I am, the Bible tells me that men will hate us for what we believe, not surprising.

If you knew me, you would see how I treat people... so I guess my view of you is stabbing people in the back and hurting them, while your view of me is a Bible thumping know-it-all who is trying to help you... that's ok, you now know the Truth and it's up to God to convict you of sin, and you to continue searching... you don't like me telling you this, but God has you still interested in this for some reason.

Hopefully you accept Christ cmantle, but if you don't, you will remember what was talked about here when you are facing God after you die..., you were given the opportunity to place your trust in Jesus, and you know the truth " ...it is appointed unto man once to die, then, the judgement."

Sorry for trying to help you, stab away. Wouldn't expect anything different.

 

[rasp112]

By the way no one is forced to serve a mission.. I didnt have to go but chose to go.. SO once again you prove you know absolutely nothing about my church but only know what your pastor has told you and your anti-mormon websites..

 

[phatty]

"We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).

Seems I know more about you than you know about yourself, or are deceived into believing.

Give it up man, you do not know more about the mormon church than a mormon who attends meetings and lives the doctrines. I dont care if you think were brainwashed or not, it doesnt matter.

Put your gutted scriptures in the full context.
2 nephi 25:20,23-26
20 ...behold I say unto you, that as these things are etrue, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other fname given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved.
23 For we labor diligently to write, to apersuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by bgrace that we are saved, after all we can cdo. 24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we akeep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the alaw given; wherefore the law hath become bdead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we atalk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we bprophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our cchildren may know to what source they may look for a dremission of their sins.


Christ's grace is THE ONLY saving grace and we are exalted only through his grace. Is that so hard to understand that we believe that? What part are you missing, or would you rather look at your misplaced quotes and bury your head in the sand?

 

[ruffryder]

The heretic

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well, are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are your Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, Me too! Are your Episcopalian or Baptist? He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are your Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord? He said, Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are your Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.

We should start living up to the name of the thread and try and get this offensive in a better way. How about posting some religious jokes?

 

[rasp112]

2 Nephi 10:23-25

23 Therefore, cheer up your hearts, and remember that ye are free to act for yourselves—to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life.
24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.
25 Wherefore, may God raise you from death by the power of the resurrection, and also from everlasting death by the power of the atonement, that ye may be received into the eternal kingdom of God, that ye may praise him through grace divine. Amen.

 

[phatty]

We should start living up to the name of the thread and try and get this offensive in a better way. How about posting some religious jokes?

That was a gooder ruff...
here is one...

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]A man dies and reaches the Pearly Gates. As he goes in, Peter meets him and praises him. "You were a great example to others all through your life, you were kind and Christlike . . .I've been told to give you the grand tour of Heaven!"

They walk to the top of a hill, and then fly over a valley. Below them, they see cathedrals and hear much laughter and watch a great procession go through the town below them, a festival with much joy and food. When they reach the next hill and land, Peter says "That's the Catholics, Episcopalians and the really ceremonial kinds of Christians."

The next valley has many church buildings of various designs, from humble cottages to great glass-and-chrome assembly halls. Orators can be heard preaching with various thundering phrases, choirs are singing, and there are church picnics all across the valley. "That's the rest of the Protestants."

The next valley has synagogues, and the smell of cooking rises up into the sky. "The Jews?" the man asks, and Peter nods.

As they reach the crest of the next hill, Peter says "Okay, now, you have to be absolutely silent until we reach the next hill. Not a SOUND!" With that, he waves his hand and they both become invisible.

This last valley is the largest by far, a place of incredible beauty. Polynesian waterfalls feed streams which wander the valley and irrigate agricultural fields full of corn and wheat and sugar cane, pineapples, fruit of all description, cattle, sheep, and all of them being tended by groups of industrious, happy, singing people. As they continue, the man and Peter pass over lovely cities, each graced with wide streets and beautiful temples. After what seems like hours, they reach the other side. Peter makes them visible again as the man asks why they had to be unseen and silent. "Who are those people?"

Peter chuckles. "Those are the Mormons. They grow all of the food in Heaven, but they think they're the only ones up here!"[/FONT]

 

[24footjet]

You say about Christians, "thats what anti-mormon literature is designed to do, confuse the mind and soul by offering a partial truth twisted to manipulate the reader in a specific direction." This is what Mormons do. Mormons originally created their church because they believe that they are the only ones who have the Truth. This is fact. Everybody else was considered evil, therefore the "new, reformed" gospel.

I'm accused of yelling and bashing and hating... yet have shown you facts again and again from your own church and the obvious reply because you have nothing to back yourselves up, "it's out of context."

How can this be taken out of context? "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation." (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206.)

or this... There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188.)

You say some good things phatty, maybe we should say take some gems or good ideas from other religions and not use the word truth.

Muslims when talking of God believe him to be Allah, not Jesus who they consider a "good man". There is a muslim rule that states you can lie to other people if it benefits allah and the muslim religion. Sounds good to me... to kill all infidels (non-believers in Allah) sounds good to me...

Meditation in it's truest sense. To clear the mind and worship... yourself and the god's of hinduism... Namaste..prayer..., yoga was designed as a technique to worship and serve the god's of buddhism. What as a mormon would you like to take from that? Now if you do some yoga and think of it just as an exercise regimen, sounds fine to me.

Phatty I like this... One of my fundamental beliefs
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

I too try and do these things... I've said it before... most Mormons I have ever dealt with, and there have been alot, are FANTASTIC people. But being a fantastic person doesn't mean you have the truth of the Biblical Jesus Christ.

Braap, your telling me that I am belittling you.... I am telling you truth, just like you deliver what you consider to be truth to people on your mission. I would love for you to share Biblical scripture with me, you have had every opportunity to do this over the course of our discussion, yet you haven't. You can't. You can't fight the Truth of the real Jesus Christ.

This is funny, I know your church doctrine, you seem to know only what your man written manuals tell you to say. I hear verbatim, the same things you are saying to me from every Mormon I've ever dealt with.

And as for the belittling, I am an adult speaking in an adult conversation.... I'm not doing what you just did accusing you of being stupid or childish, just wrong.

If you can't handle that, then I guess you aren't up to the challenge of proving your faith.

And as far as my knowledge of Mormon theology, I have spent extensive time with mormons on my previous job, discussing with them in depth these same issues and being met with the same answers, almost like it's in a manual...





, but here we go down another wormhole to get everybody of the fact of the matter, Salvation, trust in Jesus and repentance of sin.

 

[rasp112]

Why do Mormon women stop having babies at thirty-five? Because thirty-six is just too many.

An LDS child needed to bring an old shirt from home for a school project about drug prevention. The mother was busy and handed her child an old T-shirt without examining it. Later, she was appalled to see her child wearing the T-shirt through the mall. On the front it said, "A Family is Forever." On the back: "Be Smart, Don't Start."

 

[24footjet]

Phatty, you say this... Christ's grace is THE ONLY saving grace and we are exalted only through his grace. Is that so hard to understand that we believe that? What part are you missing, or would you rather look at your misplaced quotes and bury your head in the sand? I'm glad you believe this, but....

Read your own scripture. 24 says ..."after all that we can do", that's works. Again, God's grace alone.

My quotes are not misplaced, you just don't want to accept them because they prove you wrong.

 

[ruffryder]

jewish one

An elderly man in Miami calls his son in New York and says, "I hate to ruin your day, but I have to tell you that your mother and I are divorcing. Forty-five years of misery is enough."
"Pop, what are you talking about?" the son screams.

"We can't stand the sight of each other any longer," the old man says. "We're sick of each other, and I'm sick of talking about this, so you call your sister in Chicago and tell her," and he hangs up.

Frantic, the son calls his sister, who explodes on the phone, "Like heck they're getting divorced," she shouts, "I'll take care of this." She calls her father immediately and screams at the old man, "You are NOT getting divorced! Don't do a single thing until I get there. I'm calling my brother back! , and we'll both be there tomorrow. Until then, don't do a thing, DO YOU HEAR ME?" and hangs up.

The old man hangs up his phone and turns to his wife. "Okay," he says, "They're coming for Passover and paying their own airfares."