Turbo Clutching Update

[fredw]

For what it's worth this is my understanding

If your making 65mph track speed then you want to make gearing for 5 to 10 percent faster at a 1 to 1 ratio of your clutches.. On a doo that is 3/4 inch under top of primary..

Primary is basically holding max rpm to your max hp.. On a doo that is 8000, and no more rpm

Now where the fun gets... is dialling in your secondary helix.. You want as much up shift as you can pull with out losing back shift.. This will put the most tq on your motor allowing you much faster to get up to that speed... In mountain climbs this is what is needed and stands out over n/a

For example on a doo turbo a 40 degree helix can work, but a 44 helix will be visually faster and stand out as long as your sled still has the tq to pull helix when it's needing back shifting.. A solfter secondary spring allows the secondary to open quicker and pull on motor harder over a stiffer spring

So simply ones goal is to pull on your motor as hard as you can with out losing back shift and maintaining max rpm.. In a gear ratio close to your max track speed on a climb..

http://youtu.be/j7Yju0uLgwQ

 

[briand]

Ok did some calculations and to covert TRS setup over to a tied setup I would need a 64-54 full progressive helix with the 140 220 spring. See Chart TRS to compare shift curve.

What i found interesting was with my 63* helix and 180 300 spring was that the shift curve after about .5 shift out was really close to the same as TRS. Very interesting how vastly different setups can have similar shift curves. Check out the chart Brian.

I can see i would need to drop a gram or two in the mid hole on my weight to run this setup.

I am going to order the helix but i doubt ill get a chance to try it this year with snow conditions fading here. Oh well always next year.

 

[TRS]

Ok did some calculations and to covert TRS setup over to a tied setup I would need a 64-54 full progressive helix with the 140 220 spring. See Chart TRS to compare shift curve.

What i found interesting was with my 63* helix and 180 300 spring was that the shift curve after about .5 shift out was really close to the same as TRS. Very interesting how vastly different setups can have similar shift curves. Check out the chart Brian.

I can see i would need to drop a gram or two in the mid hole on my weight to run this setup.

I am going to order the helix but i doubt ill get a chance to try it this year with snow conditions fading here. Oh well always next year.

Nice charts.

 

[briand]

For what it's worth this is my understanding

If your making 65mph track speed then you want to make gearing for 5 to 10 percent faster at a 1 to 1 ratio of your clutches.. On a doo that is 3/4 inch under top of primary..

Primary is basically holding max rpm to your max hp.. On a doo that is 8000, and no more rpm

Now where the fun gets... is dialling in your secondary helix.. You want as much up shift as you can pull with out losing back shift.. This will put the most tq on your motor allowing you much faster to get up to that speed... In mountain climbs this is what is needed and stands out over n/a

For example on a doo turbo a 40 degree helix can work, but a 44 helix will be visually faster and stand out as long as your sled still has the tq to pull helix when it's needing back shifting.. A solfter secondary spring allows the secondary to open quicker and pull on motor harder over a stiffer spring

So simply ones goal is to pull on your motor as hard as you can with out losing back shift and maintaining max rpm.. In a gear ratio close to your max track speed on a climb..

http://youtu.be/j7Yju0uLgwQ

I have gone with this line of thinking for most of my tunning for years with polaris and it works very close to what you say.

 

[briand]

With the spring combos and helix angles i had this weekend we had a fairly good go at tunning.
Conditions were blue bird at the top but snow conditions were not the best. About 8 inches to a foot of good snow but really tracked up So all the test had lots of track spots that we were running in. Hill we were playing on was medium type of slope as we felt the steeper ones were not safe to play on. WE might have been able to get more track speed out in thees conditions but hill length limited that

What we tested was as follows.

Primary was the same for all test runs with a 120-340 spring MDS weights. Amounts varied from about 72.5 to 74.4 grams in total depending on setup.

Gearing 1.90

team tied secondary

1st setup

61* helix
black purple spring 160-240.
RPMs around 8400
very little heat in the clutches actually cool to the touch.
This worked ok but felt like it would not let it shift out fully.
Max track speed was about 60-61 mph.
Changing out the spring to a 120-220 did help but clutch heat went up. Gained a little more speed about 1 mph

Second setup

63* helix
160-240 spring secondary
Removed about 1.5 grams from primary.
RPMS about 8400
This setup work very well. Best track speed was 66 mpH and after multiple runs clutch heat was the same as the 61 degree. this setup pulled harder and yet still maintained a good RPM with a little fluctuation of about 100 rpm.

The 160 start rate i felt might be just a little much and rate of 140 might have been better but i had left it in the trailer that day.

I feel this will work in good snow conditions but will probably need to adjust weights a little.

I did not have any lower springs to test with but i feel any less rate would have created more belt heat in the 61.

I could not find my 57* and 59* for this trip but hopefully next time.

 

[roni87]

Is there a noticeable lag with the 120-340 primary spring? Running a 170-310 in mine and getting a bit of over-rev if I jump in throttle off the bottom

 

[TRS]

Justin, jump in here.

 

[Spaarky]

Me???? What part do you want me to comment on? I have some. The moral of the story will be put in Tony's clutching and save yourself a bunch of work. Plus have a sled that rips.

 

[briand]

Tony just wondering If you could give me some advice on this tied clutch. What was the best setup you ran on it? I've tried many combos of different setups and so far I cant' seem to get shallower helix angles with low springs to work very well. Problem seems to be that you can get a good RPM's but it shifts out good on flatter hills but once you start climbing into steeper parts the low angle helix just stops shifting out a certain point of height on the hill with a stable rpm say 8300-8400 all the way through. To me with the tied clutches it feels like say if you going with a 61* helix it shifts out like a 61 but when it comes to backshift it acts more like a 57*. TRied many different spring combos over the last 2 years and i can improve it some but not great. I just feel that with low angle helixes with both sheive sides of the secondary pulling on the helix against the rollers there's is just too much of a load sensing difference from the flat ground to steep hill transition thus limiting the shift out. I hope this explains it clear enough.

With the TSS 04 the load sensing isn't as great as you have only half or one side of the sheave to work with load sensing as the other half is transmitted to the drive shaft.

The higher angle seem to be easier to dial in with a better shiftout and backshift. For me seems to 63* works better but when you increase boost levels up beyond 10# then the 63* starts to show the same characteristics of the lower angle with varying backshift .

 

[briand]

Is there a noticeable lag with the 120-340 primary spring? Running a 170-310 in mine and getting a bit of over-rev if I jump in throttle off the bottom

No not with my sled but i have MDS weights in it. With these weights in it and the 120-140 spring the engine revs up to about 4500 then seems to kick in with a snap like feel then settle down to about 3900. Any higher spring rate in the begin rate would be quite harsh at engagement.

 

[Spaarky]

Get your hands on lightning weights... And shim the primary properly. You will be pleasantly surprised.

 

[TRS]

Tony just wondering If you could give me some advice on this tied clutch. What was the best setup you ran on it? I've tried many combos of different setups and so far I cant' seem to get shallower helix angles with low springs to work very well. Problem seems to be that you can get a good RPM's but it shifts out good on flatter hills but once you start climbing into steeper parts the low angle helix just stops shifting out a certain point of height on the hill with a stable rpm say 8300-8400 all the way through. To me with the tied clutches it feels like say if you going with a 61* helix it shifts out like a 61 but when it comes to backshift it acts more like a 57*. TRied many different spring combos over the last 2 years and i can improve it some but not great. I just feel that with low angle helixes with both sheive sides of the secondary pulling on the helix against the rollers there's is just too much of a load sensing difference from the flat ground to steep hill transition thus limiting the shift out. I hope this explains it clear enough.

With the TSS 04 the load sensing isn't as great as you have only half or one side of the sheave to work with load sensing as the other half is transmitted to the drive shaft.

The higher angle seem to be easier to dial in with a better shiftout and backshift. For me seems to 63* works better but when you increase boost levels up beyond 10# then the 63* starts to show the same characteristics of the lower angle with varying backshift .

To be honest I don't like the TIED. I played with it a few years ago and went back to the 4. To me, the 4 is easier to dial in.

 

[diamonddave]

briand there have been many good tuners that have run into the same issues with the Tied and have boxes full of helixes and springs to show for it. In theory it should work better than a TSS-04 but the proof is the runnability of the 04 and how well it works.

Now life in the bushings and spacer plate is a different story.

 

[roni87]

No not with my sled but i have MDS weights in it. With these weights in it and the 120-140 spring the engine revs up to about 4500 then seems to kick in with a snap like feel then settle down to about 3900. Any higher spring rate in the begin rate would be quite harsh at engagement.

I'm running rooster weights. Base 65g. 5.5 heal, 5 mid, 3.5 tip. 79 total.
Switched spring from 170-310 to a stocker 140-330. Gonna try tomorrow.
Engagement was 4300 with the 170 spring

 

[briand]

I'm running rooster weights. Base 65g. 5.5 heal, 5 mid, 3.5 tip. 79 total.
Switched spring from 170-310 to a stocker 140-330. Gonna try tomorrow.
Engagement was 4300 with the 170 spring

I think you will like the stock spring better. With the daltons weight I had before that's the spring I like the best.

 

[briand]

briand there have been many good tuners that have run into the same issues with the Tied and have boxes full of helixes and springs to show for it. In theory it should work better than a TSS-04 but the proof is the runnability of the 04 and how well it works.

Now life in the bushings and spacer plate is a different story.

Thanks Dave. With higher helix angles I can get it to work just as good as the tss 04 with a little cooler clutch temps but it will never be better then the 04. What I find is the tied has a much narrower range of what works and what doesn't in each setup. Once you apply a turbo the tied becomes even more finicky to tune.

 

[roni87]

I think you will like the stock spring better. With the daltons weight I had before that's the spring I like the best.

I hope so.

Secondary setup.
44-48 .36 helix
120-220 spring, one derlin
Adjusted ratio of 2.03:1 w/ 7 tooth drivers. (22/39) gears.

Silber external gate w/ 5 psi spring @ 1100 ft.
Was running 8050 with 5 psi wot on flat field.
8200-8250 with 7psi spring.

 

[Spaarky]

Food for thought and comparable, is it easier to walk up a 32* slope with 220# on your back or a 62* slope with 300# on your back? On your hike a 32* slope takes longer to gain elevation than a 62* slope but it is sure easier.

First off, if you want to keep up with TRS, you better load him on the steepest slope and about 400lbs on his back. Otherwise, you don't have a chance of keeping up. Tony's Beertooth Crossfit program will have you in shape in 3 days.

Honestly, I just got back from what to me is a dream trip. Spending 4-5 days, with 3 awesome tuners/builders, that can ride the crap out of sleds. Plus a couple other really good guys.

Tony asked me to come into this thread again, back some posts. I was quit sure what he wanted me to post. I am still not quit sure, but I can share my experiences. I have been around turbo sleds for a pile of years. I will admit, my technical expertise is probably lacking a bit. I know how to ask questions and learn, and lots of them though.

I have tried a ton of different set ups. Once we got the old Cat secondary set ups ironed out, then it was onto the Team. That threw us for a loop. I have often considered putting one of the old cat clutches back on.

My turbo guru buddy always ran light primary weight set ups. Tall, tall gearing, my last 700 had 1.75:1 and 1.85:1 gears in it. You guys have hit on the philosophy a bit. They would pull well, but I had a couple issues. Bottom end, and spring snow. Bottom end was always a little soggy. Deep, heavy spring snow, my clutches would be hotter than a sheriffs pistol. Plus it never seemed to run quit the same. I think part of that was a reflection of snow conditions.

Last year when my sled was NA, I put Tonys set up in. Never rode a stock sled like it. Almost made me not want a turbo again. Well as we all know its tough to shake the turbo fever. Even after Tony jumped on mine, I could see that little turbo grin on his face.

This year I converted it to his turbo clutching set up. I will admit, I was a bit skeptical. Heavier weights, low gearing, a primary spring that screamed high, high engagement to me. Didn't seem like a recipe for me. Tony had never steered us wrong in the past. Everything we did just flat rocked. So throw it in have some faith and shut up.

There has been a bunch of people on my sled. Turbo lovers to absolute turbo haters. All the comments are the same. Pulls like a freight train, smooth as silk, zero lag, big bore on steroids... you name it. Every comment has been positive. Even my turbohater buddy was impressed.

Its the most rideable turbo I have been on. Trees, hills, jumps, cornices... its awesome. Whick the throttle straight to 8300-8350 and its LOCKED IN. Throttle response in any range is right there. We did change the turbo kit some, so I cant say if that is just clutching or a combo. Clutch heat is in check. I checked Tony even though you didn't see it. The set ups just flat rocks. I can't believe none of the kit builders have latched onto it. They are still using the antiquated reverse helix BS, that has never worked for me. That's fine... Tony can save his info for us.

I am going to let you on to a little secret that I shouldn't tell anyone about Tonys clutching. YOU NEED TO RUN THE PACKAGE COMPLETELY!!!! NO ADAPTING THIS OR THAT. THAT IS NOT HIS SET UP.

Lightning weights, EV springs.... ALL OF IT! There is not a weight on the market that acts or reacts like the Lightning weight.

If you want to maximize his set up do this:

*Follow his center to center procedure
*Have proper alignment
*Have your clutches properly serviced and shimmed.
*Run the Gates belt
*Torque Arm the motor.
*and get the thermostat kit on your sleds. You are missing out on a ton of performance without it.

 

[briand]

First off, if you want to keep up with TRS, you better load him on the steepest slope and about 400lbs on his back. Otherwise, you don't have a chance of keeping up. Tony's Beertooth Crossfit program will have you in shape in 3 days.

Honestly, I just got back from what to me is a dream trip. Spending 4-5 days, with 3 awesome tuners/builders, that can ride the crap out of sleds. Plus a couple other really good guys.

Tony asked me to come into this thread again, back some posts. I was quit sure what he wanted me to post. I am still not quit sure, but I can share my experiences. I have been around turbo sleds for a pile of years. I will admit, my technical expertise is probably lacking a bit. I know how to ask questions and learn, and lots of them though.

I have tried a ton of different set ups. Once we got the old Cat secondary set ups ironed out, then it was onto the Team. That threw us for a loop. I have often considered putting one of the old cat clutches back on.

My turbo guru buddy always ran light primary weight set ups. Tall, tall gearing, my last 700 had 1.75:1 and 1.85:1 gears in it. You guys have hit on the philosophy a bit. They would pull well, but I had a couple issues. Bottom end, and spring snow. Bottom end was always a little soggy. Deep, heavy spring snow, my clutches would be hotter than a sheriffs pistol. Plus it never seemed to run quit the same. I think part of that was a reflection of snow conditions.

Last year when my sled was NA, I put Tonys set up in. Never rode a stock sled like it. Almost made me not want a turbo again. Well as we all know its tough to shake the turbo fever. Even after Tony jumped on mine, I could see that little turbo grin on his face.

This year I converted it to his turbo clutching set up. I will admit, I was a bit skeptical. Heavier weights, low gearing, a primary spring that screamed high, high engagement to me. Didn't seem like a recipe for me. Tony had never steered us wrong in the past. Everything we did just flat rocked. So throw it in have some faith and shut up.

There has been a bunch of people on my sled. Turbo lovers to absolute turbo haters. All the comments are the same. Pulls like a freight train, smooth as silk, zero lag, big bore on steroids... you name it. Every comment has been positive. Even my turbohater buddy was impressed.

Its the most rideable turbo I have been on. Trees, hills, jumps, cornices... its awesome. Whick the throttle straight to 8300-8350 and its LOCKED IN. Throttle response in any range is right there. We did change the turbo kit some, so I cant say if that is just clutching or a combo. Clutch heat is in check. I checked Tony even though you didn't see it. The set ups just flat rocks. I can't believe none of the kit builders have latched onto it. They are still using the antiquated reverse helix BS, that has never worked for me. That's fine... Tony can save his info for us.

I am going to let you on to a little secret that I shouldn't tell anyone about Tonys clutching. YOU NEED TO RUN THE PACKAGE COMPLETELY!!!! NO ADAPTING THIS OR THAT. THAT IS NOT HIS SET UP.

Lightning weights, EV springs.... ALL OF IT! There is not a weight on the market that acts or reacts like the Lightning weight.

If you want to maximize his set up do this:

*Follow his center to center procedure
*Have proper alignment
*Have your clutches properly serviced and shimmed.
*Run the Gates belt
*Torque Arm the motor.
*and get the thermostat kit on your sleds. You are missing out on a ton of performance without it.

Thanks Outlaw for your response. First off though I would like to reassure Tony and everyone that i was not trying to give the impression that i doubted his setup, on the contrary i'm really intrigued by it and like i stated in another post i WILL try it but i cant get everything in time to try this year anymore due to snow conditions and other commitments coming. I've always respect the advice and have followed lots of what Tony recommends on snowest so please i apologize if I came across disrespectful. That was not my intent.

I was hoping to get the tied to work better but maybe its not possible.

Like you Outlaw I found to by gearing up it does seem to be doogie in the bottom but livable. It does pull harder on flat ground but not necessarily on the hill. Still don't know if it increased any track speed or not. I honestly feel i will be going back to a stock or lower ratio.

Its good to see feedback from other users like yourself that have used his setup. Skepticism Maybe i have a little also but that is what drives me to find out what works and what doesn't work by testing others setups out first. Many times I have found that what i think works best is not necessarily the best setup. there's always going to be something better coming or just around the corner. Someone's always refining setups while thinking of different approaches.

 

[wellfed777]

outlaw how much boost you running ?
i ask because i'm wondering what weight lighting i should
order /start with i'm running 7-8 lbs
thanks